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TOPIC: Carriage horse ban

RE:Carriage horse ban 13 Dec 2011 10:40 #16

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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vthorseshoe wrote:
Thomas you are so so correct, but here in the states when the word regulation comes into the sentence people start hollering about the government getting into their business.

And that my friend is the real stopping block over here.
None of us want to see animals of any kind be abused, BUT the thought of "BIG BROTHER getting his hold onto one more piece of our quote unquote "rights"
ends up taking precidend and everything else goes to the wayside.

I have for years advocated regulating the farrier industry similar to what you have set up in the UK and it gets shot down so quick I don't even get to put a period at the end of my sentence.

It matters not that it would improve the industry for the professionals by getting rid of the rif raf and a bunch of other plus's.

NON regulation is what the majority want and it is what comes to a boiling point over every other thing...

So the whole issue of regulating anything is out in left field here in the states.
What is regulated is slipped in through groups who either buy it in or know how to work the system and slip it in under guise of another bill.

just the way it is here.

my 2 cents worth ;)

Good post and I absolutely understand that there's huge social and cultural barriers which make it an emotional issue in the category of "too difficult to change".

I know 'some' folks think that anything that's "regulation" is "big brother" and "bad" and stopping something and that the UK system means we've got secret policemen all over the place telling us how to do things but heck it's just not like that.

Yes we've got a social democracy so that means we have regulation to protect but it is a democracy.

Regulation in this context is NOT some political conspiracy. Rather it's about protecting those who need protecting. It's about rights and responsibilities. It's about ensuring folks do something well and properly and the framework exists to allow and enable folks to do things.

As you know, because it's been discussed to death, our regulation re farriers, riding establishments, commercial use of horses etc etc was all brought in as a welfare act to protect horses from the inept and darn right cruel and abusive.

It makes no difference to a horse whether neglect and suffering is caused by deliberate acts of some low-life who abuses "just because he can and there's nothing to prevent it" or "out of ignorance and stup_idity because they don't know what they should do for the best".

Of course no legislation anywhere stops someone who just doesn't care or doesn't want to do a good job or who is willfully or criminally negligent. But it does afford the opportunity to ensure there's minimum standards that have to be complied with and that there's a legal framework with penalty and sanction for those who don't comply and a degree of protection to horses and members of the public.

I hate to see the likes of farriers, riding instructors, horse trainers, commercial carriage companies etc etc etc getting slagged off and tarred with the same brush as those who just one day woke up and decided that's what they'd do to make some money.

But that's what happens when folks can do what you want and despite a total lack of training, knowledge, competence, standards, insurance etc etc.

My personal experience is that those who do things right tend not to make much mention of regulatory requirements beyond a cursory and typically "British" moan as they initially fill in a form. Fundamentally though we know that for those that want to do things right that it's not really going to be anything other than trivial inconvenience of having to pull together and provide and show the evidence.

The rif-raf, inept and na'er do wells hate it because it's a mountain they have to climb or else they're out of business!
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RE:Carriage horse ban 13 Dec 2011 11:45 #17

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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Bill Adams wrote:
The real issue is the PETA crowd wanting to stop the use of animals. Start with a big target like New York carriages and work down from there.

ladyblacksmith wrote:
it's more than that; they PETA are trying to stop everything animal related.

I said the other day on this forum that I thought there'd be more chance of finding rocking horse **** than me defending anything that anyone said about PETA and here I am doing it again! :confused:

As I see it the New York carriage horses are a soft target. I wouldn't **** on PETA if they were on fire and I'm the least likely person to want to see horse drawn carriages banned.

But I'm of the strong opinion that horse drawn carriages and heavy city traffic the likes of what there is in New York don't belong together.

In the current format and location and based on things I've seen, albeit last actual visit 4 years ago but also news articles etc showing horses injured, dropping down, on carriages converted from a pair to a single, with ill fitting harness, ribby etc etc it's not surprising that PETA can too easily attract support.

If there wasn't "ammunition" then PETA wouldn't have bullets to fire! Rather than having such huge support in terms of income and membership, they'd just be ignored or treated by all as fundamentalist "whackos".

As it is there's several things that they've got on their agenda and I'm thinking "mmm, they've got a point"
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RE:Carriage horse ban 13 Dec 2011 14:17 #18

  • cuttinshoer
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Thomas, we whipped your country several years ago so we could do things the way we wanted to, why would we want to go backwards.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Carriage horse ban 13 Dec 2011 14:41 #19

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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Well I personally wouldn't ever suggest that you ever do anything that you didn't want to.

But there's the evidence of precisely what vthorseshoe mentioned earlier and double it and add in a dose of garbage, misinformation and stereotypical prejudice.

IMO that sort of jingoistic small minded 'fighting talk' and arrogant belief that you must be the best in the world and get it all right and be good to go and just because it's the mighty USofA doesn't seem to fly in many circumstances. It's pathetic!

But hey you might not be bothered about such as horse welfare and standards of behaviour and whether the likes of carriage horses are treated properly and seen to be that way.

Neither does it seem that you have a mind that's willing to learn from what others do and that's been successful.

My track record is that I've never shied back from difficult subject matters and when it comes to such issues I've not only posted previously but I've been a patron and activist in World Horse Welfare (was the International League for the Protection of Horses) for over 40 years.
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RE:Carriage horse ban 13 Dec 2011 15:19 #20

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Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
But there's the evidence of precisely what vthorseshoe mentioned earlier and double it and add in a dose of garbage, misinformation and stereotypical prejudice.

Yep, the animal rights people are pretty good at making things up and making one bad person out to be the norm.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
IMO that sort of jingoistic small minded 'fighting talk' and arrogant belief that you must be the best in the world and get it all right and be good to go and just because it's the mighty USofA doesn't seem to fly in many circumstances. It's pathetic!

I can say because I live here that we are the best country in the world. It seems every time another country needs help they turn to the US and we go save them at the cost of ruining our own country.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
But hey you might not be bothered about such as horse welfare and standards of behaviour and whether the likes of carriage horses are treated properly and seen to be that way.

It doesn't bother me much because it doesn't happen as much as PETA or someone from an another country makes it out to be. Does it happen yes but it seems anymore if someone gets a horse that's a little flighty, OH my poor fluffy was abused by his previous owner how terrible are they, every one has a rescue or an abused horse. When the fact is ole fluffy was never properly educated, perhaps that is abuse.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
Neither does it seem that you have a mind that's willing to learn from what others do and that's been successful.

Ya I'm pretty close minded.

I would bet if you compared cases of neglect to population differences between your country and ours I would say they are pretty close percentage wise. We have all seen shoddy shoeing being performed in your country with licensing and regulation, that to me doesn't lend itself to successful. You have also spoken of neglect and abuse cases in your country, I thought your ways were successful.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
My track record is that I've never shied back from difficult subject matters and when it comes to such issues I've not only posted previously but I've been a patron and activist in World Horse Welfare (was the International League for the Protection of Horses) for over 40 years.

The problem is the people doing the regulating in this country don't know one end of the horse from another. It's pretty easy for someone to set on the other side of the water and pass judgement.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Carriage horse ban 13 Dec 2011 15:56 #21

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cuttinshoer wrote:


Ya I'm pretty close minded.

I would bet if you compared cases of neglect to population differences between your country and ours I would say they are pretty close percentage wise. We have all seen shoddy shoeing being performed in your country with licensing and regulation, that to me doesn't lend itself to successful. You have also spoken of neglect and abuse cases in your country, I thought your ways were successful.
.

You clearly don't appreciate that BECAUSE you're not regulated that you (no-one!) actually don't even have records of cases and hence you're absolutely unable to provide any meaningful data at all.

So anything you say is just anecdotal and in ignorance.

It's just fact-free opinion and not worth anything
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RE:Carriage horse ban 13 Dec 2011 21:49 #22

  • SlowShoe
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vthorseshoe wrote:
Thomas you are so so correct, but here in the states when the word regulation comes into the sentence people start hollering about the government getting into their business.

Regulations already state the automobiles MUST yield to horses. What else do you need? Its true that the last thing anyone needs is more legislation.
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RE:Carriage horse ban 13 Dec 2011 21:52 #23

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Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
You clearly don't appreciate that BECAUSE you're not regulated that you (no-one!) actually don't even have records of cases and hence you're absolutely unable to provide any meaningful data at all.

So anything you say is just anecdotal and in ignorance.

It's just fact-free opinion and not worth anything

Maybe I don't have scientific data, but EVERY British farrier I've spoken to says there is just as much bad work in the UK as there is in the US. Licensing means nothing in terms of quality control, it just means more money for politicians and more boot licking for people who want to work. Fact.
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 02:30 #24

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Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
You clearly don't appreciate that BECAUSE you're not regulated

Really, are you sure? I contacted one of my customers who operates a carriage business she pointed me to these regulations that she has to abide by. Please read carefully over paragraph 115 which starts on pg. 25

http://townofnashville.org/files/Title_XI_Business_Regulations.pdf

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
that you (no-one!) actually don't even have records of cases and hence you're absolutely unable to provide any meaningful data at all.

I am also friends with the head of the equine portion of our local humane society, not to be confused with the crackpots of the HSUS. She informed me that she has to keep very accurate records in every case that she is called to because of the possibility of criminal charges being filed and the sherriff's department usually go with them depending on the severity of the report, they also keep records.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
So anything you say is just anecdotal and in ignorance.

I beleive we can see where the ignorance truly lies.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
It's just fact-free opinion and not worth anything

I will not make any comments on horses in New York because I don't live there or have any practical experience with the horses located there. You on the other hand set thousands of miles away and profess to know the answers to our problems here in this country, without a thread of actual fact about what occurs in this country.

Everyones answer is more regulation when in fact there are already laws present on the books. The problem is the U.S. runs around and takes care of everyone else and supposedly we don't have any money to enforce what we already have. Then some politician who is running for office campaigns for more regulation to get votes and then we have more regulation that cannot be enforced.

Kinda like illegal immigration, they are making all kinds of new laws to gain votes when we don't enforce the law already. If those laws were not present before then they wouldn't be illegal immigrants would they.

It's pretty easy for you to set thousands of miles away in a country that is the same size as one of our states(Oregon) and tell us what will work. when in fact you don't have a clue about the geographical differences between the two countries.
Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 02:45 #25

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Justin Decker

"As I see it, good enough is never good enough, it's just an excuse for mediocrity. If every shoeing ain't worth your best shot, you're just going through the motions." Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 04:44 #26

  • Seth Parker
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Like most, I've seen the pics of horses dead in the street after being struck by vehicles or standing nose to tailpipe with a idling diesel truck in rush hour and this makes me sad. But its important to understand that this is a small minority.

In general I find folks that make a living with their horses/mules take good care of them.

Like Josh said we already have laws on the books protecting horses from motorists. Why not simply step up enforcement of the currrent laws instead of making new ones.
Seth Parker, South Florida
www.facebook.com/SethParkerFarrier
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 10:13 #27

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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cuttinshoer wrote:

I would bet if you compared cases of neglect to population differences between your country and ours I would say they are pretty close percentage wise.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
You clearly don't appreciate that BECAUSE you're not regulated that you (no-one!) actually don't even have records of cases and hence you're absolutely unable to provide any meaningful data at all.

cuttinshoer wrote:
Really, are you sure? I contacted one of my customers who operates a carriage business she pointed me to these regulations that she has to abide by. Please read carefully over paragraph 115 which starts on pg. 25

Yes I'm sure and clearly you didn't appreciate when I said that it was in direct reply to your assertion (that I also quoted and which I'd have thought might have been a clue).

You don't have compulsory identity of horses and so there's no record of how many there are. Hence you aren't able to define the size of the total population group and in turn to produce an incidence rate.

That means you can't do a comparison.
It's pretty easy for you to set thousands of miles away in a country that is the same size as one of our states(Oregon) and tell us what will work. when in fact you don't have a clue about the geographical differences between the two countries.
If you read again I didn't say what would work.

But don't let that stop you from asserting that no-one else is even allowed an opinion!

If you read carefully you'd see that I mentioned being in New York; in fact the last time was just a brief stay and prior to getting a flight to San Francisco and then a change to Los Angeles with a further change there to go to Medford, Oregon and then a 2 hour drive to get to my friends ranch 20 miles from Broadbent.

But don't let your prejudicial jingoistic stereotypes stop you from deciding what I know about geography and travel !

cuttinshoer wrote:
Perhaps you should take a look at these as well. since we have no governmental regulation.

Perhaps you should look again.... where did I say you had "no governmental regulation"

So I'm guessing from your contributions here that you think that nothing should change at all and folks should just mind their own business because it's all working marvelously as it is.

Sounds like a plan..... NOT!!!
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 12:39 #28

  • DeniseMc
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But I'm of the strong opinion that horse drawn carriages and heavy city traffic the likes of what there is in New York don't belong together.
But don't let your prejudicial jingoistic stereotypes stop you from deciding what I know about geography and travel !

Well let's not have you stop with the ban in NYC. We need you, Big Brother, to do something about the Amish horses here in our country too (they need protecting too!): (from http://nifa.usda.gov/about/white_papers/pdfs/ag_equipment.pdf)
In some counties such as Lancaster County, Pennsylvania; Holmes County, Ohio; and LaGrange County, Indiana, there are several thousand horse-drawn buggies and implements that are used on local roads and the number of buggies may exceed the number of licensed motor vehicles. The result has been a growing number of reported highway crashes involving horses and buggies, some of which have resulted in mulitple fatalities to buggy occupants.....
The use of the SMV (slow moving vehicle) emblem on buggies has been central to one of the more intense conflicts that have occured between Old Order Anabaptists groups and the general public..... In Minnesota a group of Old Order families refused to use the SMV emblem and were ticketed by law enforcement. The case was reviewed by the US Supreme Court and the citation was overturned on the grounds this groups belief's compliance with the state markings and lighting codes prevented them from freely practicing their religion.

Denise
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 13:26 #29

  • vthorseshoe
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Horses have the right of way.........on the road and cars are to slow down when passing....... Yes I have always been told it is on the books and is a law....
BUT !!!
Just how many of the drivers of cars know this ?
Not you folks....Everyday drivers ....
How many of the drivers of cars give a flying hoot about it even if they do know ?
(If your in their way then they either run you over or blare on their horn to get out of their way. "How dare you cause them to slow down or even move an inch from their chosen path")
How many of the folks who think your horse is so cute beep their horn at you as they come up and go by you ?

Denise; I have seen the statistics about Amish buggies getting hit from behind and we had Amish throughout new england states .
My question is was it the buggy that initiated the accident of the speed of the vehicle and inability to slow down when it saw the buggy that caused the accident ?

Some one said it is a small percentage of owners that cause the bad rep for the rest of the horse owners, I would agree to some extent.
What I would say to this is in the years past owners had horses and not cars and had some knowledge about horses.
Today folks have cars and are owners of horses and know little about the horses they own.

There is a site Sharon and i read EVERYDAY called the Loping Ladies and we sit and laugh/howl/and have pure disgust for the ignorance and pure garbage these professed horse women taske as gosphel truth...
And this is just one group of many who own horses.
How many of you as farriers go to a customers and zip your lips because of the ****** things you encounter each and everyday.

This post has turned into a dead end, (as it has numerous times in the past) because of the word regulation.

my 2 cents worth ;)
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:Carriage horse ban 14 Dec 2011 13:36 #30

  • Rick Burten
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The case was reviewed by the US Supreme Court and the citation was overturned on the grounds this groups belief's compliance with the state markings and lighting codes prevented them from freely practicing their religion.
We of the First Temple of Excessive Speed will be contesting all future speeding tickets for the same reason. Our Brothers and Sisters of the Order of Last Rites will also be contesting any tickets and arrests issued for DWI, DUI or for blood alcohol levels greater than .08 as being sober is in direct opposition to our stated religious beliefs and practices......
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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