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TOPIC: Carriage horse ban

Carriage horse ban 09 Dec 2011 04:06 #1

  • Gary Hill
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One more thing people want to stop, let them win and it is one more right we all lose as animal owners and exhibators..
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/08/ban-on-carriage-horses-ga_n_1136393.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl18%7Csec3_lnk2%7C118632
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Carriage horse ban 09 Dec 2011 19:21 #2

gee hope that doesent happen, we had them wanting to ban jump racing, they wanted to ban use of whips in racing,
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RE:Carriage horse ban 10 Dec 2011 00:17 #3

  • tbloomer
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ASPCA's CEO makes $516,710.00/year.

Who do you think is going to win?
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Carriage horse ban 10 Dec 2011 00:30 #4

  • cyber steve
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tbloomer wrote:
ASPCA's CEO makes $516,710.00/year.

Who do you think is going to win?

That would save a lot of puppies...
Steve Turpin

"Never confuse a single defeat with a final defeat." F. Scott Fitzgerald

"No philosophers so thoroughly comprehend us as dogs and horses." Herman Melville[/color]
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RE:Carriage horse ban 10 Dec 2011 01:34 #5

  • Steve Marshall
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I hate bans of any type unless its an immoral or criminal act. The City of NY should look to the Hackney Carriage Office in London and borrow some of their rules,regulations and procedures for policing the rules. Why in a Nanny state is the rush to BAN. IMO it only goes to prove a lack of understanding of the problem and an unwillingness to do so.

Steve you are so right. I guess he is paid according to an industry average for a CEO of a company of the ASPCA's size. But I feel its more than 500,000 times more than current Presidents worth let alone the CEO position at the ASPCA.
Steve Marshall

"The horse world doesn't build character - it tests it"
Bob Avilia
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RE:Carriage horse ban 11 Dec 2011 14:21 #6

  • mwmyersdvm
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It is my understanding that one of the main stables is on land that is prime for developers. That is really going to give it some push to remove them. They do need to come up with a plan for recorded horse care so they can fend off all these problems. Horse people tend to do as they have always done, even if it doesn't work very well.

M. W. Myers, DVM
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RE:Carriage horse ban 11 Dec 2011 15:43 #7

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mwmyersdvm wrote:
It is my understanding that one of the main stables is on land that is prime for developers. That is really going to give it some push to remove them.

M. W. Myers, DVM

Ahh now we are getting to the real cause for concern. The 1% need more cash for their stash.
Steve Marshall

"The horse world doesn't build character - it tests it"
Bob Avilia
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RE:Carriage horse ban 12 Dec 2011 12:50 #8

  • vthorseshoe
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Last month I recieved a call from a South Carolina female veterinarian. She had been given the task of deciding what shoe's were appropriate for carriage horses in the area she resides.
We spent a good 20 minutes on the phone with me explaining the pro's and cons of what is normally found or used on carriage horses.
I am pretty sure by the end of our conversation she had a fair to dinkum handle on the reason and need for certain materials applied to shoe's and the good and bad of using other forms of shoe's depending on the type of road and or weather . (pavement, cobblestone, cement etc. combined with rain.)

A lot of groups are putting pressure on carriage companies and for a number of reason's as stated in this post. Even for the possible desire to own the land the company is on as quoted by Dr. Myers.

I shod the carriage horses that tour Saratoga, Ny for about a year and I can tell you they were extremely well fed and the harness and equipment was in very good shape and the hooves were a main concern for the owners.
Well maintained with good traction.
(I eventually turned the account over to another farrier because it was a 4 hour drive one way for me and I was cutting back on long trips.)

my 2 cents worth ;)
"you may not like what I say" !
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quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:Carriage horse ban 12 Dec 2011 14:06 #9

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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I've got mixed feelings on this one.

I'm also a commercial carriage driver and though not now operating tourist service, it is something I have done previously.

I've operated in York, Helmsley, Scarborough and Malton in the UK. All itsy-bitsy little places and all restricted to the areas that are limited traffic access. Nowhere near the size and congestion and noise and pace and traffic that's in NY though!

I don't think that horse drawn carriages and heavy city traffic the likes of what there is in New York belong together.

IMO there needs to be regulation to protect the horses and drivers from mad selfish motorists and from overwork and abuse and misuse.

However to suggest that carriage driving per se isn't appropriate for tourists is just plain ridiculous.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with horse drawn carriages taking people for drives.

There's nothing wrong with them driving on roads.

The problem is heavy traffic and some ***** motorists and some ***** carriage drivers!

I find it "interesting" that folks want regulation and banning for carriage horses in New York when there's absolutely zilch elsewhere to protect horses in the USA.

IMO there ought to be effective regulation and enforced standards of welfare and for all horses. Whether or not they're being used commercially and for ridden and driven activity.

But I know that just isn't politically or socially acceptable there and it's very different here.

In the UK commercial horse drawn vehicles are licenced and very strictly regulated. But then we are altogether more regulated. All Equestrian Centres are regulated and licenced as are all Riding Instructors and Horse Trainers. Each and every horse being used commercially is examined at the very least annually. Likewise for where they're kept. Every single equid in the UK has to have it's own passport. Farriery is licenced and regulated etc etc. So for us regulation and licencing is pretty much standard place.

I act as an assessor for local authorities and assess drivers and examine carriages, harness and horses to ensure they're all fit for purpose and up to the job when they're being used commercially. They don't get a chance to operate if they're not right.

But when visiting other places and on forums I've seen some real sights for sore eyes! Disasters and accidents in the making.

Particularly when folks post photos and stories of their draft horses in parades and taking tourists or the likes of santa clause for drives etc. There's also been wayyyyy too many accidents recently and IMO entirely because of ignorance and failure to do what ought to be done and by doing things that should never be done!

But banning horse drawn carriages in a city because SOME horses might be in the hands of inappropriate owners and inappropriate conditions is just stark staring bonkers.

That's the reason to go after THOSE specific owners and take action against them and them only.

Likewise banning all because SOME horses might be badly and inappropriately stabled with no turn out at all..... ever is irrational.

IF it's accepted that this is wrong..... and I for one actually think it is..... then there needs to be a radical rethink of animal welfare legislation generally.

There's a heck of a lot of horses kept with no turn out at all or else in some pathetic teeny pen in solitary confinement. And not just in cities! Not just carriage horses! Not just horses used for tourists!

Banning them because the city traffic is appalling and impossible to make safe is a logical reason though it begs lots of questions such as:

Why can't safer areas be found? What if anything can be done about traffic calming measures? There's masses of park land in NY and I know that a lot of the horse drawn drivers operate there and that seems the right sort of place. So keep it there and ensure there's effective regulation and control of operators.

That's how a lot of companies operate all over Europe. The horses are trucked into the city for a week or two then back to pasture land and turn out for a couple of days. With strict rules about their health and how many hours they can work and where. What sort of harness is used and what kind of vehicle and whether according to it's size and weight once loaded, it's drawn by a single horse or a pair of horses. What the driver's competence is and checking it. Time to stop the incompetent and abusive from compromising the whole business.

IMO that seems like a solution and any carriage operator who doesn't like it needs to find something else to do and ideally without a horse.
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RE:Carriage horse ban 12 Dec 2011 21:57 #10

  • vthorseshoe
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Thomas you are so so correct, but here in the states when the word regulation comes into the sentence people start hollering about the government getting into their business.

And that my friend is the real stopping block over here.
None of us want to see animals of any kind be abused, BUT the thought of "BIG BROTHER getting his hold onto one more piece of our quote unquote "rights"
ends up taking precidend and everything else goes to the wayside.

I have for years advocated regulating the farrier industry similar to what you have set up in the UK and it gets shot down so quick I don't even get to put a period at the end of my sentence.

It matters not that it would improve the industry for the professionals by getting rid of the rif raf and a bunch of other plus's.

NON regulation is what the majority want and it is what comes to a boiling point over every other thing...

So the whole issue of regulating anything is out in left field here in the states.
What is regulated is slipped in through groups who either buy it in or know how to work the system and slip it in under guise of another bill.

just the way it is here.

my 2 cents worth ;)
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:Carriage horse ban 13 Dec 2011 02:04 #11

Gary Hill wrote:
One more thing people want to stop, let them win and it is one more right we all lose as animal owners and exhibators..
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/08/ban-on-carriage-horses-ga_n_1136393.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl18%7Csec3_lnk2%7C118632



it's more than that; they PETA are trying to stop everything animal related.
and they are getting stronger everytime because the this new generation is for them all the way; and it will get to the point where there will be no more veterinarians, or vet schools, zoos, santurary, hunting, owning, breeding eating, wearing, farming of anything animal related. very scary stuff; since one of my good friends was for PETA and went to the meetings until even she had second thoughts!~!; and she is a very animal rights even to this day; but even she ascepts that you still need, zoos, vets, farming, and you should have even pets.
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RE:Carriage horse ban 13 Dec 2011 02:11 #12

  • Gary Hill
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ladyblacksmith wrote:
it's more than that; they PETA are trying to stop everything animal related.
and they are getting stronger everytime because the this new generation is for them all the way; and it will get to the point where there will be no more veterinarians, or vet schools, zoos, santurary, hunting, owning, breeding eating, wearing, farming of anything animal related. very scary stuff; since one of my good friends was for PETA and went to the meetings until even she had second thoughts!~!; and she is a very animal rights even to this day; but even she ascepts that you still need, zoos, vets, farming, and you should have even pets.

Good for her that the Kool Aid she drank wasnt as strong as most...It is terrible that they have their venue but even worst that some animal owners make every animal owner look bad???:(
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Carriage horse ban 13 Dec 2011 02:13 #13

Gary Hill wrote:
Good for her that the Kool Aid she drank wasnt as strong as most...It is terrible that they have their venue but even worst that some animal owners make every animal owner look bad???:(

tell me about it; and Gary what's worse is on animal planet is "animal cops" and it just makes it harder to convince people that is the extreme and not the norm.
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RE:Carriage horse ban 13 Dec 2011 02:15 #14

  • Bill Adams
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Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
I find it "interesting" that folks want regulation and banning for carriage horses in New York when there's absolutely zilch elsewhere to protect horses in the USA.
The real issue is the PETA crowd wanting to stop the use of animals. Start with a big target like New York carriages and work down from there. If the horses were replaced tomorrow with illegal aliens, under the exact same conditions, you wouldn't hear a peep.

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Carriage horse ban 13 Dec 2011 04:27 #15

  • Gary Hill
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Bill Adams wrote:
The real issue is the PETA crowd wanting to stop the use of animals. Start with a big target like New York carriages and work down from there. If the horses were replaced tomorrow with illegal aliens, under the exact same conditions, you wouldn't hear a peep.

You recon rickshaws with asians pullin them will replace the horses Bill??:D
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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