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TOPIC: Other AFA issues

RE:Other AFA issues 14 Apr 2006 11:10 #196

Bryan just food for thought. I really do not put a lot of stock in insurance companys, however I do have faith in people. If the Insurance company can find a loop hole and they do not have to pay they won't. If one takes all reasonable measures to prevent accidents and show concern and respect for each individual attending clinic, it is highly unlikely to get sued. People get sued when accidents happen and the people responsible did not take reasonable measures in preventing them and show concern for every individuals safety and well being. I also think most of us farriers take responsibility for our own actions and realise the risks involved. Just because your insured does not relieve one from makeing good choices. One way to start every event or clinic is the person running it, should talk about safety, wearing hearing and eye protection, pay attention to the horses, forges and tools. Insured or not this is the most important and best thing to do.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Other AFA issues 14 Apr 2006 13:12 #197

  • Rick Burten
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Phil,

I don't know what reality you operate in, but in the reality that surrounds me, I find that society today is quite litigeous. Spill coffee on your lap, sue MickeyD.
Trip, stagger, fall entering a retail establishment, call a lawyer.
Many farriers carry not only personal liability insurance, but Care, Custody and Control insurance too. Perhaps you need to ask yourself, why?

Bryan makes good points regarding the exposure of the officers and representatives of Chapter organizations.

I don't know what the shake out over the 50lc3 status and the relationship between the AFA and its chapters is going to be. I do know that it is being looked at and that it had better be a top priority for all concerned. I don't even know if all the chapters are aware of what the problem is. Certainly, this may force a completely new relationship to be formed, and at a minimum, may force a reorganization of the BOD. Which, it seems to me, also offers the perfect opportunity to address the issue of representation for non-chapter affiliated AFA members.

The Land of Lincoln Horseshoers Association(Chaptern#30) which is the chapter to which I belong has always carried liability insurance but does not, at this time, carry insurance that indemnifies its officers and representative(s). I am going to call our president and bring this issue to his immediate attention. LLHA is a not-for-profit corporation that has always complied with relevant tax laws and requirements.

We live in interesting times.

I too want to take this opportunity to wish Bryan "God Speed" with a fair wind at his back. Our loss is the Freisian Association's gain.

Rick
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In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
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RE:Other AFA issues 15 Apr 2006 03:22 #198

  • vthorseshoe
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I have just spent a fair amount of time reading and re-reading Bryan's post on insurance coverage.
I found it to be extremely interesting and very attention getting.

I can tell you from my own knowledge of the farriers I have spoken with, many don't have any kind of liability or any other form of insurance. Many can't even afford hospitaization.
I find this as a dark cloud waiting over the hill to suddenly appear.
(I also understand many farriers work on a shoe-string and either don't make large incomes or don't have good money management skills)

Our Association has filed for 503-c status,(waiting for IRS decision so in limbo till we hear from them). We have a tax number and have complied with all the requirements. We have an attorney whom we seek out when in doubt and we also ask questions of a tax man at the same time to stay on top of all things of importance.
I recieved forms for filing and was informed it was prudent to do so.

Insurance is a topic that comes up on a real regular basis, and what I have read here will be presented at our next meeting for discussion.

I thank all of you for this insight.

I do have some other questions; John ? Rick ? Ron ? or anyone else ?
Why weren't any new chapters accepted at the last meeting ?

We were unable to send a represenative because of the financial cost and our coffure wasn't up to the amount needed. (In our part of the country, farriers sit on the fence for a long time to see if a group is going to sink or swim before joining. They also ask who the other members are, I guess we need a "who's Who" list.
We have been growing slowly by putting on good clinics and a good forging contest to raise money. In 3 yrs we now boast 53 paid members.
It takes time to build a treasury and be able to do the things many of you are able to do.)

I learned from reading we could have asked another chapter to represent us. (I believe I have this correct.) I didn't realize this until it was to late.

I had asked these questions of Bryan,and Craig. ( Bryan did say I didn't have a form filled out correctly, but which form ??) I was told they would check into it and get back to me. To date I haven't had a responce.

I did recieve the manilla envelope,(I assume most members recieved this?) with the happenings at the meeting, but honestly it didn't answer or explain much to me other than the proceedings of what went on.


At this time our Association decided to put membership as a chapter of the AFA on the back burner.
To be quite honest we are dismayed at all the squabbling.
Everytime I come on line and read some of the posts I think "man this sure looks like an earthquake waiting to erupt."

I do want to say after reading what Ron wrote in responce to John's questions, I said to myself , "here is a person who handled himself with dignity and respect and professionalism."
He was to the point, didn't throw stones, and answered the questions before him.
When I finished reading his post I wasn't shaking my head, like I find myself doing after reading many of the P
matches.

Do you think the AFA has gotten to big and are trying to conquer to many of the issue's ?

We all know the saying about 5 farriers in a room will never agree on how to do anything.
Do you think this is happening now ?

I never gave much thought about INTELLIGENT farriers. But Rick, and Tom's post are full of words I'll bet most who read this board have trouble understanding. I have met Dave Ferguson and John Blombach and I know first hand they are very inteligent men.
Phil and Jaye and Calshoer ( I have met her also), all of you are a new breed. Your not just muscle and steel. You folks have me in awe of your knowledge and skills.
With all this intelligence why does it seem like the AFA is in dis-arey. (spelling ?)
I believe in debate and two heads are better than one, but somewhere along the line some one has to find a way to work together.

Hell, I'm not even sure if I'm making any sense. Maybe I am just rambling, but if I think like this, How many others are thinking the same thing ?

Bruce Matthews
Northeast Drafthorse Shoeing LLC
AFA member #1300 (been a member a long time)
www.northeastdrafthorseshoeing.com
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:Other AFA issues 15 Apr 2006 04:24 #199

vthorseshoe wrote:
I do want to say after reading what Ron wrote in responce to John's questions, I said to myself , "here is a person who handled himself with dignity and respect and professionalism."
He was to the point, didn't throw stones, and answered the questions before him.
Bruce,

Wow. Thank you. All I can do, is be who I am. As I said in my reply to John I come from the corporate world and in that world, at least publicly, that is how one comports themselves. So here is my first campaign promise. I will always try to handle myself “with dignity and respect and professionalism." I can’t promise to always answer every question put before me because there are times when it would be improper, but when I can not I will not obfuscate, I’ll simply say, as politely as possible, that I will not answer the question.

There were a bunch of things in your post that I am not able to address, but here are a few things that I think I can speak to from my point of view. I hope you were soliciting an opinion. :Dvthorseshoe wrote:
To be quite honest we are dismayed at all the squabbling. Everytime I come on line and read some of the posts I think "man this sure looks like an earthquake waiting to erupt."
Unfortunately I suspect that your description is more accurate than not. Here in this forum there is some license to let it rip. A lot of it is air clearing, unfortunately there has been a lot of spin as well. Speaking for myself I’ll plead guilty on this count. But when I see the AFA, and its leadership, being attacked with untruths or un-factual statements I feel the facts need to get a fair hearing. So I stand up and start fighting for the facts.
vthorseshoe wrote:
Do you think the AFA has gotten to big and are trying to conquer to many of the issue's ?
No. I think the AFA has just begun to grow. However, I do think that we need to get a lot smarter about how we address issues. We are getting to a point where we need to figure out how to dispassionately develop the facts surrounding many of our issues and present them in easy to understand and coherent language. The truth of our facts must be self evident in the facts themselves and their presentation. In my opinion our credibility as an organization now depends on how directly, respectfully and professionally we present our information.
vthorseshoe wrote:
We all know the saying about 5 farriers in a room will never agree on how to do anything.
Do you think this is happening now ? …… With all this intelligence why does it seem like the AFA is in dis-arey. (spelling ?)
I believe that we as an association are trying to find a way to give voice to all of the facets of the issues that we are faced with. Unfortunately, we are also struggling to realize that in every facet there is still a common and inseparable thread. For me it is like looking at a cut but as yet unpolished diamond. Every facet has its own unique qualities, their own challenges, color, reflection size, shape and clarity. When the diamond is finally polished it is brilliant. We just haven’t finished polishing the diamond that is the AFA.
vthorseshoe wrote:
You folks have me in awe of your knowledge and skills.
Gentlemen that have been shoeing, and members of the AFA, for as long as you have me in awe. You and gentlemen like you are the solid foundation of the AFA. Thanks for keeping it going. Your efforts have given me a place to come home to. I hope my efforts will continue to build on what you have given me.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

Visit the Guild of Professional Farriers, Inc. Website

"What is popular is not always right; what is right is not always popular." Unknown

"In matters of style swim with the current; In matters of principle, stand like a...
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RE:Other AFA issues 15 Apr 2006 04:37 #200

  • solidrockshoer
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:) Hello all!



There is a great deal of speculation as to the events leading up to Mr. Quinsey's resignation. I would propose, regardless of who, what, when, where, why, or how, it is done. Your suspicions are not with out reason, but in this instance they are unfounded!

There is little question of Bryan’s accomplishments during his tenure with the AFA. He has worked hard and diligently. As a result the members enjoyed the rewards of Bryan's efforts. Thank You So Very Much Bryan!


Logically do you think I have that much clout, I could convince the entire EC to accept His resignation. The ranting, raving, illogical speculation only creates division.


Regarding my tardy response, I was not going to risk the credibility of this office or the AFA at the risk of giving you potentially incorrect information until I had signed agreements in hand.


You should be aware that the entire EC has exhausted every effort on your behalf during this short period of time to ensure you get what you paid for. "NO FOOT NO HORSE" is at the printer, where you will find complete details.



How ironic, that there has been little response to my post #115 dated April 3, 2006. Only 1 reply! How ironic those who are making the most noise have not placed 1 call! How ironic that I have taken the time to personally call you.


Please think about the bigger picture. You want the AFA to be the worlds leading authority in equine hoof care? Get involved, give me a call, I will get you a job helping some where, that is of course if you are truly sincere in your posted concerns for the AFA and the membership.


Sincerely,



Dave Ferguson

AFA President
443-521-0430 24/7
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RE:Other AFA issues 15 Apr 2006 06:10 #201

  • Rick Burten
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mintvale wrote:
Regarding my tardy response, I was not going to risk the credibility of this office or the AFA at the risk of giving you potentially incorrect information until I had signed agreements in hand.
If it were found that the credibility(not to mention viability) of the office of President and/or the AFA was at risk and/or already seriously damaged, and that untenable situation was found to be a direct result of actions engaged in by the sitting President, would you, as a member of the AFA, demand said individual's immediate resignation?

As a member of the AFA, would you expect the other members of the EC, and, if necessary, the Board of Directors, to initiate action(per Article III, Section 3 and/or Article IV, Section 7 and/or Article VI, Section 10 of the Bylaws of the American Farrier's Association, amended 26February2006) to remove that individual from office, and quite possibly, from membership in the AFA?

Hypothetically speaking, if that scenario applied to you, would you voluntarily resign rather than risking the credibility and viability of the office of President and the AFA as a whole?

If certain actions of a sitting president were found to be unethical, immoral and/or illegal, would you expect that individual, when asked or demanded of, to quietly resign(hopefully, with dignity) rather than risking the threat of a lawsuit and the probability that said individual's reputation and credibility would most certainly be destroyed in both a court of law and perhaps more importantly, the court of public opinion?

I shall anxiously await your forthright and timely reply to these questions. IOW, sooner rather than later. A simple "Yes" or "No" to each question will suffice.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


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RE:Other AFA issues 15 Apr 2006 12:17 #202

  • vthorseshoe
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I have a harness I have developed to use on drafts (and riding horses when necesary) to help in teaching them to stand quiet for handling of the hooves during trimming or shoeing.
It is not abusive, and can be released in a split second if a dangerous situation were to arise.
I have been able to take a large number of spoiled and abused drafts back to standing free style for trimming/shoeing because of this inovation, without screaming or hitting.
I now have farriers who use it, and interest from 2 veterinarians on how it would work in their practices).

My point is with every change there needs to be a time where folks set back and allow the new person/persons a chance to impliment their idea's and set them in motion.
All idea's are not for everyone.

It took time for the folks, farriers and vets alike to say hey ! this is a good idea. Then they were able to see beyond their initial resistance and began to think of ways it could work for them.
Those who didn't see a use in it dismissed it and moved on.
I didn't drop them because they weren't interested in my concept or idea's.
I made changes in other area's and made the effort to work with them to get through a rough job as easily as possible.

I can see that everyone has a vision of where the AFA should go.
Some agree and some don't.
Points of interest, points of concern, suggestions.
This has always been healthy for all involved, and is what keeps anything moving forward by looking for new idea's and inovative ways to make things better.

Debates and arguements are also part of the process.

When I get exhasperated, frustrated, and angry all I do is create a setback that I have to take time to correct before I can move on.
The animal is anxious, the owner is asking themselves whether this is worth it, and I am now silently saying aw sh-- .
I have learned to walk away for a few minutes and come back with a calm approach that I have thought out.

If I don't do this then I come to a point of division. The owner and I part ways.
What did this accomplish because I went off half cocked ? Nothing but failure.

I see exhasperation, frustration, and aw sh-- on both ends of this spectrum.

I also see and know professional people on both ends of this problem.

Its kinda like the two neighbors who kept screaming at each other over the fence. nothing was getting done but screaming,
until the day the two neighbors came together and sat down at a table and discussed their differences and came to a workable solution.

I'm not a politician. I am a married man of over 20+ yrs to the same marvelous woman.
My marriage has taught me to give and take. Compromise and committ.
Working together and not apart.
Screaming and abuse only retarded any solution to success.
Team work comes through compromise.
Without it I don't know of any team who has survived the test of time.

The largest thing I need to learn is how to spell, but then with time and commitment I can over-come even that.

This is my 2 cents worth. If everyone took a deep breath and stepped back for a moment. Use this forum as a means of education, and keeping everyone informed and updated for all invoved.
Here is a place where you have everyone's attention and could use it to the utmost.
I have read of how folks are thinking about holding back their membership dues, and we in our association have put a hold on joining.

Here is a place to show everyone how the members in the AFA works to build, NOT divide.
The words and idea's you use today are either the mortar to build tomorrow's wall or the bull-dozer to tear it down. It your choice.

Bruce Matthews
Northeast Drafthorse Shoeing LLC
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:Other AFA issues 15 Apr 2006 13:08 #203

mintvale wrote:
"NO FOOT NO HORSE" is at the printer, where you will find complete details.

If anybody wants to see it now, it's up on the members only side of the AFA website. Log in, follow the link for "No Foot No Horse", then April2006.
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RE:Other AFA issues 15 Apr 2006 13:11 #204

Bruce,

Well said - cooler heads and common sense must always prevail.

Phantom :)
"The work will teach you how to do it"
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RE:Other AFA issues 15 Apr 2006 15:04 #205

  • Rick Burten
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Phantom Farrier wrote:
Bruce,

Well said - cooler heads and common sense must always prevail.

Phantom :)
So, John,

Are you willing to answer the questions I posed . Again, all that is required to answer the questions is a simple 'Yes' or 'No'?

Anyone else out there, AFA member or not, want to step up to the plate and answer the questions? Afterall, there are only four of them and that shouldn't take to long to do.

For the record, my personal answer to each of the four questions is an unqualified, "YES!"
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Other AFA issues 15 Apr 2006 15:09 #206

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Roy Amaral CJF wrote:
If anybody wants to see it now, it's up on the members only side of the AFA website. Log in, follow the link for "No Foot No Horse", then April2006.
Went to the website, read the literature, feel that it did nothing to answer any questions on the issues at hand. Particularly since most of the information is already common knowledge.

Perhaps I've missed something. If that is the case, I hope someone or everyone can clarify things for me.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Other AFA issues 15 Apr 2006 15:31 #207

  • Gary_Miller
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mintvale wrote:
:) There is a great deal of speculation as to the events leading up to Mr. Quinsey's resignation. I would propose, regardless of who, what, when, where, why, or how, it is done. Your suspicions are not with out reason, but in this instance they are unfounded!
The problem is in this situation someone is a LYING, and just because Bryan is now gone does not change it.

John says that we just don't know the truth. However when he was pushed to put the truth out he side stepped the issue and continues to do so.

Then Dave comes along SHOUTING at everyone to basicly let it die as it over, and that no one even called him to discuss the matter. No one called him because they are waiting to see if he has the integrety to print the truth on this form.

The problem with a lie is that it just keeps getting bigger as little lies are stated to cover the bigger lie.

There are two sides to every story. We have heard on side but the other side has been silent and continues to side step the issue.

So whats the truth here?

We may never know unless someone with intergrity steps forward and tells the truth.


Gary
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Other AFA issues 15 Apr 2006 15:39 #208

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Rick Burten wrote:
If it were found that the credibility(not to mention viability) of the office of President and/or the AFA was at risk and/or already seriously damaged, and that untenable situation was found to be a direct result of actions engaged in by the sitting President, would you, as a member of the AFA, demand said individual's immediate resignation?
YESRick Burten wrote:
As a member of the AFA, would you expect the other members of the EC, and, if necessary, the Board of Directors, to initiate action(per Article III, Section 3 and/or Article IV, Section 7 and/or Article VI, Section 10 of the Bylaws of the American Farrier's Association, amended 26February2006) to remove that individual from office, and quite possibly, from membership in the AFA?
YESRick Burten wrote:
Hypothetically speaking, if that scenario applied to you, would you voluntarily resign rather than risking the credibility and viability of the office of President and the AFA as a whole?
YESRick Burten wrote:
If certain actions of a sitting president were found to be unethical, immoral and/or illegal, would you expect that individual, when asked or demanded of, to quietly resign(hopefully, with dignity) rather than risking the threat of a lawsuit and the probability that said individual's reputation and credibility would most certainly be destroyed in both a court of law and perhaps more importantly, the court of public opinion?
YES


Gary
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RE:Other AFA issues 15 Apr 2006 16:39 #209

=John says that we just don't know the truth. However when he was pushed to put the truth out he side stepped the issue and continues to do so.
We may never know unless someone with intergrity steps forward and tells the truth.
Gary

Gary,

You seem to be way off base here and I wish to clarify a few things. I'm not claiming to be in possession of the only truth - there is more - it is to say the least, a very complex situation.

It would demonstrate a total lack of integrity and disregard for me to air dirty laundry on this or any other forum or media outlet.

I respect your right to know, but I also respect the privacy and dignity of all individuals involved. I hope you will understand my position and the very sensitive nature of the situation. There is no intentional side stepping here.

Sincerely,

John Blombach

My AFA hotline: 978-430-1757
"The work will teach you how to do it"
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RE:Other AFA issues 15 Apr 2006 17:56 #210

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Phantom Farrier wrote:
You seem to be way off base here and I wish to clarify a few things. I'm not claiming to be in possession of the only truth - there is more -
Off Base? I don't think so.

Did you not say here on this form:

" Ron and Tom,

Frankly speaking, I know the truth and have offered up my personal AFA hotline and none of you have called to get the facts. Shame on you for continuing to promote your fairy tales.

Phantom

And

"Ron,

Wouldn't it be prudent for you to check all the facts before drawing your conclusion and smearing these boards with such drivel. You're still in denial aren't you?

Phantom"

And

"Gary,

If you also want to just keep guessing, thats all right by me. You don't want to know the truth - neither does Ron - otherwise...

Phantom"
Phantom Farrier wrote:
it is to say the least, a very complex situation.
How complex can it be? Ether Dave said he was going to get rid of Bryan, or he did not say it. Its that simple. Nothing complicated about that.Phantom Farrier wrote:
It would demonstrate a total lack of integrity and disregard for me to air dirty laundry on this or any other forum or media outlet.
You have demonstrated a lack of character and integrity by not stating the facts on this form as you know them. No one is asking for names or any other dirty laundry to be aired only the truth.
Did Dave say what he has been accused of saying and if so why did he feel that way? Thats all nothing else.Phantom Farrier wrote:
I respect your right to know,.
No you don't or you would post the truth here so there would be not doubt to what was said and why.Phantom Farrier wrote:
but I also respect the privacy and dignity of all individuals involved.
When things are said in order to gain political control or power. Individual privacy and dignity has been given up.Phantom Farrier wrote:
I hope you will understand my position and the very sensitive nature of the situation. There is no intentional side stepping here.
I understand that you have given up you personal freedoms of speech in order to protect Dave from the embarrassment of the situation. By doing so you have place you own integrity in question. As for there being intentionally side stepping its all over this form since the election.


Gary
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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