make up natural cara make up make up tutorial make up korea make up minimalis make up artis make up mata belajar make up make up wardah alat make up makeup forever indonesia makeup artist jakarta tips make up barbie make up natural make up make up wajah make up pesta make up syahrini makeup mata makeup minimalis peralatan make up make up cantik make up mac make up kit jual make up make up sederhana perlengkapan make up gambar make up vidio make up cara makeup minimalis wardah make up make up pac make up glamour cara memakai makeup make up panggung harga make up make up modern make up alami make up dasar pixy make up make up muslimah make up oriflame make up jepang makeover cosmetic make up ultima make up sariayu grosir make up makeup fantasi makeup pesta tas makeup langkah make up make up pria make up malam alat makeup tahapan make up produk make up shading make up mak up make up kebaya make up jilbab make up inez make up simpel contoh make up cara ber makeup makeup wajah tanpa make up make up terbaru toko make up mac makeup indonesia make up soft urutan make up trik make up makeover makeup brand gusnaldi make up paket make up panduan make up jual makeup brush make up bagus alat2 make up make up gusnaldi aplikasi make up alat alat makeup dasar make up inez make up peralatan makeup make up wanita make up berjilbab make up tebal sejarah make up make up maybeline make up branded make up siang tata cara makeup reseller make up make up muslim make up maybelin warna make up tips make up artist rias make up make up mata make up artis belajar make up make up artist kursus make up kuas make up make up forever indonesia jual make up mac indonesia make up make up artist indonesia harga make up forever jual make up online make up pac make up forever jakarta make up oriflame jual make up forever make up online shop indonesia harga make up sekolah make up grosir make up harga make up maybelline jual make up murah make up terbaru mak up mac make up indonesia sofia make up make up kit murah mac makeup indonesia produk make up jual make up kit make up store indonesia make up forever academy jakarta toko make up online jual make up set jual make up mac make up beauty jual make up branded produk make up mac make up forever harga make up mac indonesia produk make up artis jual make up palette produk make up forever make up palette murah before after make up pengantin before after make up sendiri before n after hasil makeup contoh make up karakter contoh riasan pengantin before n after harga make up wisuda harga make up artist harga make up forever make up wisuda rias wisuda di jogja Daftar harga make up forever daftar harga make up mac daftar harga kosmetik make up forever makeup wisuda harga makeup wisuda kursus make up di yogyakarta kursus make up di jogja kursus make up jogja kursus make up yogyakarta kursus kecantikan di yogyakarta kursus kecantikan di jogja kursus make up artist di jogja kursus rias pengantin di jogja kursus rias di yogyakarta kursus tata rias di yogyakarta rias pengantin muslim jogja jasa kreasi jilbab wisuda yogyakarta jasa rias make up wisuda murah bagus bisa dpanggil tempat make uf di jigja yang bagus rias wisuda murah dan berkualitas yogyakarta pakar kreasi jilbab di jogja make uper natural yogya make up wisuda hijab area jogja make up dan kreasi jilbab yang bagus di jogja jasa make up natural untuk wisuda jogja makeup jogja make up jogja makeup yogyakarta make up yogyakarta makeup wisuda jogja make up wisuda jogja make up wisuda yogyakarta makeup wisuda yogyakarta
Saturday May 28, 2022
Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: licensing

RE:licensing 17 Feb 2006 03:00 #376

I'm not sure about the fact that the CJF was formed to make Journeymen elitist or not. Most members have voiced a similar opinion when asked about the AFA. One recent CJF expressed his disappointment with his achievement because at last years convention the upper eschelon still payed no attention to what he had achieved or what he thought. He then realized that it was more than just becoming a CJF - one had to be a CJF with the right last name or be a Team member to be heard. Just being a Journeyman just wasn't enough.

I don't think that many farriers become CJF's on the premiss of being elite. I also don't think that most CJF's act as if they are elite, however, I could see how someone on the outside looking in, would assume that the only way to have some input is to achieve the CJF status. I also think that most members that are really active in the local chapters are CF, CJF or working toward those goals, so when things are planned, the order of importance is usually:
1. Hold certification at chapter level.
2. Hold contest at chapter level.
3. Hold clinic at chapter level, most often some type of forging clinic, or a clinician that is known primarily for contesting or forging.
4. Have a certain percentage of chapter members certified.


The Tri-State Farriers Association is about a year old, we've held a couple hammer-ins, a clinic, and a horse owner clinic. At the farrier clinic we had Jaye Perry as our clinician, there was no mention of forging, or hand making shoes, there was no emphasis on certification standards or shoeing toward contest or certification standards, and we had a huge turnout, and alot of farriers came, because it was a clinic on horseshoeing, reading x-rays, evaluating the horse in motion, and applying what the horse needs to do it's job a little better. I can't tell you how many farriers that were there told me it was the best clinic they had ever attended. We have to face the facts, many if not most farriers in this country don't care about forging, or contesting or certification. They are intrested in what they can do to charge another $10 or $15 dollars a horse. Most don't see certification or contesting as the way to do it. I'm not saying they are right or wrong, but it's my opinion that, that is how they percieve things.

again, this is just my opinion
Dave Purves CF
"Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." Will Rogers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBimQu6Pxxs
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:licensing 17 Feb 2006 03:02 #377

  • Rick Burten
  • Rick Burten's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Enforcer
  • Posts: 9082
  • Thank you received: 50
  • Karma: 8
tbloomer wrote:
******************
Rick! Why are you editing my posts? Now your post is showing up as an edit in my post . . . and my post is showing up as a quote of myself. Keep your paws off my mouse dammit!

Tom Bloomer

Trouble was that my fingers engaged before my mind was in gear
:eek: :o . I managed to do it twice this morning, so I owe you the same apology as I made to Phil.

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:licensing 17 Feb 2006 03:21 #378

  • Rick Burten
  • Rick Burten's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Enforcer
  • Posts: 9082
  • Thank you received: 50
  • Karma: 8
Phantom Farrier wrote:
It is my hope that you and others on this forum will be in Omaha next week to continue this discussion on licensing.
Just as a 'point of order', were you not running for office, and were you not reping for a manufacturer, would you be in Omaha next week? If so, would you be there early enough to attend the BOD meeting to see what was reported, discussed and voted on? Would you stay the entire week so that you could attend the Annual Membership meeting, and at that meeting, if you attended, would you be vocal?

During those times when you were not a manufacturer's rep, did you attend every convention?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:licensing 17 Feb 2006 04:23 #379

Phantom Farrier wrote:
You have delivered a full court press, however I have the docs - you know it and I know it.
John, I don't know it. I have all of the do***entation available to me as yielded by a request to the AFA offices for a production of do***ents relating to that task force. I also have a copy of the Caldwell report and all of the do***ents that Mr. Caldwell used to develop his opinions and I have a current copy of the AFA bylaws. Now if you have do***ents that show something that supports your conclusion please share them with me. If I have been shorted by headquarters you can watch me full court press someone’s gonads until they explode.
Phantom Farrier wrote:
It is my hope that you and others on this forum will be in Omaha next week to continue this discussion on licensing. It is important to ourselves and the future of farriery as we know it to be concerned and actively involved.
I will not make it to Omaha. I wish I could, but it is not to be this year.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

Visit the Guild of Professional Farriers, Inc. Website

"What is popular is not always right; what is right is not always popular." Unknown

"In matters of style swim with the current; In matters of principle, stand like a...
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:licensing 17 Feb 2006 11:48 #380

  • Mike Ferrara
  • Mike Ferrara's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 5057
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 0
George Geist wrote:
Journeymen were far from hacks, they were trained and competent. Being as that term is still used in other trades technically anyone working on their own and not in training is a journeyman. I know that will upset some people but maybe these associations shouldn't be using such words unless they want to truly become a craft guild.
George


I had a technician working for me some years back. We were a union shop and when we created the technician position HR insisted that we make it a union position. I hired a guy out or our maintenance dept. to fill the position. After he had worked for me for a time he filled out a form stating that he had been doing x type of work for y period of time, HR signed it and the union made him a journeymen electrician.

Now...he may, in fact, be a joureymen electrician but I would advise that you not let him near your factory automation unless some one like me (though I have no joureymen papers) is there to tell him what to do. LOL
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:licensing 17 Feb 2006 12:53 #381

  • Mike Ferrara
  • Mike Ferrara's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 5057
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 0
Dave Purves wrote:
I don't think that many farriers become CJF's on the premiss of being elite. I also don't think that most CJF's act as if they are elite, however, I could see how someone on the outside looking in, would assume that the only way to have some input is to achieve the CJF status. I also think that most members that are really active in the local chapters are CF, CJF or working toward those goals, so when things are planned, the order of importance is usually:
1. Hold certification at chapter level.
2. Hold contest at chapter level.
3. Hold clinic at chapter level, most often some type of forging clinic, or a clinician that is known primarily for contesting or forging.
4. Have a certain percentage of chapter members certified.


The Tri-State Farriers Association is about a year old, we've held a couple hammer-ins, a clinic, and a horse owner clinic. At the farrier clinic we had Jaye Perry as our clinician, there was no mention of forging, or hand making shoes, there was no emphasis on certification standards or shoeing toward contest or certification standards, and we had a huge turnout, and alot of farriers came, because it was a clinic on horseshoeing, reading x-rays, evaluating the horse in motion, and applying what the horse needs to do it's job a little better. I can't tell you how many farriers that were there told me it was the best clinic they had ever attended. We have to face the facts, many if not most farriers in this country don't care about forging, or contesting or certification. They are intrested in what they can do to charge another $10 or $15 dollars a horse. Most don't see certification or contesting as the way to do it. I'm not saying they are right or wrong, but it's my opinion that, that is how they percieve things.

again, this is just my opinion
Dave Purves CF

I think you bring up some good points. I'm a hobby blacksmith though I manage to sell a few things here and there. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I couldn't forge a shoe at all but I really don't do very much forging in my shoeing practice. So far, I think I like making knives and hatchets/tomahawks the best and wish I had more time to really work at it. BTW, you can have your blades tested and become a master bladesmith too.

I've known guys who went out and shod horses all day and then came home and practiced building shoes...all kinds of shoes...and you can bet they got good at it. That usually followed or started as part of their quest for certification. If they want to show off their work the need to take a test or enter a contest. I don't know how many of those shoes ever got nailed to a horse so it struck me more as a hobby pursuit. I think it's a fine hobby and it has the added benefit of being related to your line of work. However, I don't know that it's the best use of resources in regards to your business. Of course that's something that every one needs to decide for themselves. Some of the things that I've learned as a hobby blacksmith have at times been of use in my work as a farrier but I wouldn't say that the time and money I've spent has directly related to increased effectiveness or profit as a farrier. Since I have little use for fancy hand made shoes in my work and no use for horse shoes outside of work, I make other things that I can use myself, sell or give away as gifts.

When it comes to CE for farriery, I'd rather pursue things that directly increase my understanding and control in situations that I actually run into in my practice.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:licensing 17 Feb 2006 13:04 #382

No problem Rick I deleted it and started it over right here. How do you push the wrong buttons to make it look like the post was initiated by someone else? That is wierd, you must administrative privilages?


My original post: The AFA acted on many issues without the proper process and comunication, not only with the farrier sector in a whole but also with there members. Some examples of this is listed below.

Rick's reply: I think you will find that while there may have been a perception of impropriety, the truth is that the proper process was followed in each case.

My reply to Rick: I disagree, the communications process was lacking and it is extremely important part of any process. For as long as the AFA has been around and for as experienced, intelectual and knowledgeable the AFA leadership is they of all people should realise that the best way to prevent problems is to communicate. It has been proven in major corporations, government and the military that the number one cause of problems is mis-communications. Lack of communication will spur mis communications. This leads to wrong perceptions, rumors and lies. Exactly what is happening now and the AFA is forced to place a gag order and figure out how to repair something that could have been prevented.

My original post: The Farnam deal, probably a great idea however this deal was acted on and decided by a small group and it caused a trust and repect issue throughout the orginization.

Rick's reply: What is your understanding of what occurred in this instance, why was that improper, and based on your knowledge of what the EC is supposed to do, what should have been done differently, and why?

My reply to Rick: Again, lack of communications, my perception may be totaly off the mark, however who is at fault.

My original post: Licensing issue, many farriers learned that this has been a goal of the AFA as far back as the start of the AFA in 1970's. This recent issue was another atempt to get it going again regardless of what farriers think. Terms like the "Train is roleing with or without you" from Craig does not gain trust and respect.

Rick's reply: Craig's statement was, I beleive, meant to act as a "wake up call" and demonstrably, it did just that. Since the actions taken by Craig, the original Task Force, and ultimately, the Board of Directors all followed due process, why should there be a lack of trust and respect issue? Would you not agree that in any organization, many issues are explored/vetted and the investigation and reporting on those subjects are not first OK'd by the membership(stockholders) or BoD first? No successful company/corporation that I am aware of is run as a "true democracy". Rather, they either function as a Republic, especially when there is indeed a public stockholder base, or a dictatorship, when the assets are closely held by one or a few individuals. If the AFA had to get the OK from its membership before it acted on any issue, then it would cease to exist in relatively short order.

My reply to Rick: Craigs comments came after many private discussion behind closed doors were revealed by Lesseter publications. Why didnt the AFA at least include that this was going on in there publications. I can see corpertations keeping a huge sale of merger a secret as this could lead to a huge loss. But we are talking about an non profit orginization that is attempting to be the voice of many tradesmen and women and speaking for all of us. Again the lack of communications causeing mis communications, wrong perceptions rumors and lies. This is so vital to perserving and earning trust and respect. If they do not understand that, then there is no hope. Many references have been made as to haveing mature intelligent debates useing facts on this forum, I think the same should apply to AFA leaders. A non profit orginzation with the mission statement that they have has an obligation to be up front with all farriers members or not. The mission statement states they want to represent the trade. The trade means the trade which includes all men and women farriers and hoofcare providers, trimmers whatever in the United States.

My original post: Accessing schools and makeing derogitory remarks about some of the schools out there was not a smart move this created mistrust and also showed the lack of respect the AFA has for the rest of the orginization.

Rick"s reply: The AFA said nothing that many others, including Doug Butler have said. Many of the members of the AFA also have attended one of the schools, and have on many occasions, opined exactly the same things. Those among us who have taken on a recent graduate from one of the schools, have often seen first hand what the level of knowledge and competence of the graduate actually is. Further, all the AFA was trying to do, especially with its School Survey Task Force, was compile a data base that was going to be centralized and readily accessible.
Since Butler has also weighed in with his opinion both on the state of the educational opportunities and with what he considers to be important for farrier education, one might wonder why the private schools reacted a vehemently as they did . Regardless, from the ashes of that conflagration, arose the AFEC which was supposed to address the concerns raised. Has any one heard anything more about what this group is doing or has done? Has this group sought any input from any of you? If not, are you not concerned that this group could be making recommendations that down the road will directly impact the farrier industry and you will have absolutely NO say in how they go about this. Is this starting to sound familiar? Why should we trust anything that this group may propose or do when we know that members of this group are as or more interested in protecting their business' and that profitability, as they are in doing anything for the industry at large.
Should someone be concerned that the business failure rate of recent farrier school graduates is as high as it is? Do you think that the schools really care? Especially since their cash cow continues to give milk.
But I digress......
No school was singled out for special comment/attention. The attempt was to focus on the general state of farrier education.

My reply to Rick: At least others like Doug Butler said what he was thinking, he did not try to hide anything. The AFA leaders however said a lot and then got caught. Big difference, again lack of communications leading to bla bla bla. The AFA has no buisness judgeing schools, they can comment all they want however they need to focus and fix internal problems before they can cast any stones.

My original post: You can try all you want to talk the talk but someone has to start walking the talk if they are going to gain a shred of trust and respect from the rest of the farriers in this country.


Rick's reply: It seems to me that the main reaction by most farriers has been purely emotional, not intellectual. The topics that upset everyone are 'hot button' topics. While it may be that one's first reaction to a topic is emotion, I would expect that rational , sentient beings would, after first blush, use their powers of reasoning and intellect to both discover and then think about and discuss the issue(s). Demonstrably, this has not occurred. The reactions to the licensing/school et al. topics was and has remained viceral rather than intellectual and insightful.
I will admit however, that it has been entertaining.

My reply to Rick: I do not think any of these issues would have been hot button topics if the AFA had been up front and communicated better. Most heated debates and wrong perception are started because of poor communications. Most of the problems and heated debates I have had with my owne practice has stemmed from a lack of communications either on my part or the customers part. When I take the time to explain something or if the owner takes the time to explain something things go much smoother, most of the time. I think back to some of the problems I have had with customers and many of them have been caused by poor communications and wrong perceptions.

In closeing, hey lessons learned nobody is perfect. I hope the AFA has learned something from all of this. But from what I read in there News letter, it does not appear they feel they have made any mistakes. Oh well, bound to repeat mistakes until the lesson is learned I quess.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:licensing 17 Feb 2006 13:20 #383

  • Rick Burten
  • Rick Burten's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Enforcer
  • Posts: 9082
  • Thank you received: 50
  • Karma: 8
Mike Ferrara wrote:
When it comes to CE for farriery, I'd rather pursue things that directly increase my understanding and control in situations that I actually run into in my practice.
Mike,
I think this is spot on. I think the concept of CEs as envisioned by the AFA is to include both the 'classroom' and the practical aspects of our profession. As soon as the AFA gets a better handle awarding other conferences, seminars and clinics CE hours, I think you'll be much more satisfied with the program. Programs such as the On-line conference here, the IHCS, Palm Beach, Rochester, etc, all seem to me to fit the requirements and need to be added to the CE list.

If we want to get way out in left field, wouldn't you like to see someone be able to earn some CE credits by spending a day or more with another farrier who is recognized as have expertise in one or more areas of interest and specialization . For instance, if I went and rode with Bob Lanners, Rick Medd, Andy Elsbry, et al, so that I could further my skill and knowledge as it relates to trimming and shoeing long footed horses, should that too not qualify? If I go to Bob Marshall's or Chris Gregory's , etc to hone my skills, should that too not be able to garner CE credits?

Should attending a Pete Ramey, Jamie Jackson, Pete Seeley, Gene Ovnicek
et al, clinic count towards CE credits?

IOW, why should CE credits be limited to only AFA events, and what criteria should we use to determine what other events should qualify and how many CE credits to award to each?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:licensing 17 Feb 2006 13:41 #384

Rick Burten wrote:
Mike,
I think this is spot on. I think the concept of CEs as envisioned by the AFA is to include both the 'classroom' and the practical aspects of our profession. As soon as the AFA gets a better handle awarding other conferences, seminars and clinics CE hours, I think you'll be much more satisfied with the program. Programs such as the On-line conference here, the IHCS, Palm Beach, Rochester, etc, all seem to me to fit the requirements and need to be added to the CE list.

If we want to get way out in left field, wouldn't you like to see someone be able to earn some CE credits by spending a day or more with another farrier who is recognized as have expertise in one or more areas of interest and specialization . For instance, if I went and rode with Bob Lanners, Rick Medd, Andy Elsbry, et al, so that I could further my skill and knowledge as it relates to trimming and shoeing long footed horses, should that too not qualify? If I go to Bob Marshall's or Chris Gregory's , etc to hone my skills, should that too not be able to garner CE credits?

Should attending a Pete Ramey, Jamie Jackson, Pete Seeley, Gene Ovnicek
et al, clinic count towards CE credits?

IOW, why should CE credits be limited to only AFA events, and what criteria should we use to determine what other events should qualify and how many CE credits to award to each?

I am noticeing many improvements just by reading the calender of events. I am glad to see the effort being made to do more pre-certification clinics and also the CE credits and the increase of information other than forgeing. I like forgeing skills and have benefited from it persoanly, but it is good to see more information being shared. Yes I think the names mentioned should also count as CE credits. If the PF is looking for articles to fill there pages, I think the current changes, mission and goals of leadership would be great. Again good communications, this would be a great way to mend fences.

I think I am going to bow out of the politics for awhile and see what happens over time. Time to get back to fun and helpfull discussions with farriers and horseowners.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:licensing 17 Feb 2006 14:53 #385

  • George Geist
  • George Geist's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 3336
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 3
Mike,
For what earthly reason did your organization allow an unqualified guy to get his journeyman papers? That sounds like mismanagement at its worst. If you really needed one you could have called the hiring hall and they would have sent one.

To do as you said doesn't serve the best interests of the company or the union. Aside from the union stuff I would consider you or any other guy working on his own to be a journeyman horseshoer.

For those who see an elitist or "ol boy" mentality among certain groups, maybe it's there, maybe it's not. Throughout my working life I've noticed that whenever I made what I thought was a step up, I found myself at the bottom of a new pile. Maybe some of you experienced that too. Just a thought.
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:licensing 17 Feb 2006 15:06 #386

Hey George I am glad to hear you consider us Journyman. Your not the only one who does. It is not a title only applied to our trade by the AFA and it was never meant as an elitist title. Actually it is also defined as an undistinquished title to describe a trades person.

It is more accurate to use it to describe one who is practiceing and learning the trade. Master is a person who has masterd a trade and usually a journyman apprentices for or is employed by a Master craftsman. The Electrical trade is a good example of this.

Definition: a skilled worker who practices some trade or handicraft [syn: craftsman, artisan, artificer]

Now all we need to do is define what skills are needed and who has the right to set the standard. One thing most and I say most farriere will agree on is there is no one way to trim and shoe horses.

Maybe every farrier that is successfully self employed is more accrutely described as a Master Farrier not a Journeyman.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:licensing 17 Feb 2006 15:35 #387

  • George Geist
  • George Geist's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 3336
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 3
Maybe so Phil, on this we are 100% in agreement. As you may or may not have noticed I never pass up a chance to take a slap at elitism wherever I see it. To me anybody who has been doing this trade and has the scars to prove it, is just as good as the next guy and is deserving of the same respect. Perhaps maybe the AFA should have chosen a different term but that's water under the bridge now. It is important to remember that they don't have a monopoly on the word.
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:licensing 17 Feb 2006 17:10 #388

  • Rick Burten
  • Rick Burten's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Enforcer
  • Posts: 9082
  • Thank you received: 50
  • Karma: 8
Phil Armitage wrote:
That is wierd, you must administrative privilages?
To a limited degree, I do. And, when my finger is faster than my brain, as was evidenced with recent postings from both TomB. and yourself, the results are less than desired :(

Since the adage "to err is human....is generally accepted, I suppose that this is proof positive that I am actually human. What? Who knew? :D
My reply to Rick: I disagree, the communications process was lacking and it is extremely important part of any process. For as long as the AFA has been around and for as experienced, intelectual and knowledgeable the AFA leadership is they of all people should realise that the best way to prevent problems is to communicate. It has been proven in major corporations, government and the military that the number one cause of problems is mis-communications. Lack of communication will spur mis communications. This leads to wrong perceptions, rumors and lies. Exactly what is happening now and the AFA is forced to place a gag order and figure out how to repair something that could have been prevented.
I am glad that you recognize that what is now going on is indeed wrong perceptions, rumors and lies, currently eminating not from within the AFA heirarchy, rather, from with out. And, I agree that good communication is an essential comodity. It is a subject that has been oft discussed at BOD meetings, and each time, efforts are made to further fine tune the process. Obviously there is still a ways to go.
My original post: The Farnam deal, probably a great idea however this deal was acted on and decided by a small group and it caused a trust and repect issue throughout the orginization.
I too, at first felt exactly this way. After discussing the issue with several people, and gaining further insights into what occurred, I have modified my stance. The EC was put in place precisely to handle situations like the Farnam deal. As it turns out, time was of the essence and the EC acted accordingly. Could/Should things have been done differently? Quien Sabe? Sometimes one just has to strike while the iron is hot. In retrospect, once the deal was done, its announcement could probably have been better explained and dealt with(which of course is JMNTBCHO).
My original post: Licensing issue, many farriers learned that this has been a goal of the AFA as far back as the start of the AFA in 1970's. This recent issue was another atempt to get it going again regardless of what farriers think. Terms like the "Train is roleing with or without you" from Craig does not gain trust and respect.

Rick's reply: Craig's statement was, I beleive, meant to act as a "wake up call" and demonstrably, it did just that. Since the actions taken by Craig, the original Task Force, and ultimately, the Board of Directors all followed due process, why should there be a lack of trust and respect issue? Would you not agree that in any organization, many issues are explored/vetted and the investigation and reporting on those subjects are not first OK'd by the membership(stockholders) or BoD first? No successful company/corporation that I am aware of is run as a "true democracy". Rather, they either function as a Republic, especially when there is indeed a public stockholder base, or a dictatorship, when the assets are closely held by one or a few individuals. If the AFA had to get the OK from its membership before it acted on any issue, then it would cease to exist in relatively short order.
While licensing may well have been the goal of certain individuals within the AFA, it has NEVER been a stated goal of the AFA. As has been seen, while the issue was investigated and reported on, the BOD quashed the idea.
My reply to Rick: Craigs comments came after many private discussion behind closed doors were revealed by Lesseter publications. Why didnt the AFA at least include that this was going on in there publications.
Private discussions are meant to be just that. While they did a less than adequate job of it, the early discussions were meant to try and get "all the ducks in a row" before going public. This is no different than the way many issues are dealt with both in the AFA and in Corporate America. Once again, it is one of the reasons for having elected officers, an EC, and an ED.
Again the lack of communications causeing mis communications, wrong perceptions rumors and lies.
Initially, you are correct. However, the continued wrong perceptions, rumors and lies that are originating from outside(and in some cases, inside) the AFA should be setting off loud warning bells in the minds of anyone who has followed the numerous iterations of the issue. While the officers have chosen to only respond to the comments at/in certain venues, it is noteworthy that the ED has, several times, been both forthright and forthcoming here on these boards and in the print media.
Many references have been made as to haveing mature intelligent debates useing facts on this forum, I think the same should apply to AFA leaders.
When they have deemed it appropriate, the leadership has commented on the issue. That the AFA elected leadership has chosen not to participate on these forums is really no suprise to me, nor should it suprise any one else. I suppose that the operant question might be, "why should they?" Of what value would it be? Especially since the answers are already out there for anyone who cares to find them.
A non profit orginzation with the mission statement that they have has an obligation to be up front with all farriers members or not.
Here we disagree.
The mission statement states they want to represent the trade. The trade means the trade which includes all men and women farriers and hoofcare providers, trimmers whatever in the United States.
The AFA's primary responsibility is to its membership. That the AFA wants to work for the betterment of all farriers is commendable. I think that they attemp to do that from the perspective of first working for the membership, and then having any success' trickle down to all who might be helped. Since it is demonstrable that the AFA works to further the professional development of farriers, tries to provide leadership and resources for the benefit of the farrier industry, and tries to improve the welfare of the horse through continuing farrier education, I would argue that the AFA is indeed meeting its mission statement.

Now, we can argue till we are blue in the face over whether said leadership is what you or I or anyone else wants, but thats just personal POV. Since the leadership can change every two years, the opportunity for new direction amply abounds. And, in reality, generally speaking, regardless of who comprises the leadership of the AFA, the reins of control remain pretty firmly in the grasp of the BOD. If you really want to effect change, whether it be in leadership or direction, then it is in***bent on you and the rest of the general membership of the AFA to elect representatives who will most correctly reflect and implement, the wants, needs, and concerns of the membership . And remember this. The membership has an opportunity at the Annual General Membership Meeting to alter the course of the AFA. Sometimes it does so, often, indifference is the rule of the day.
My reply to Rick: At least others like Doug Butler said what he was thinking, he did not try to hide anything. The AFA leaders however said a lot and then got caught. Big difference
No sir! The AFA leadership spoke its mind. Perhaps not collectively, but at least, majorily. The AFA was not trying to hide anything. They were however trying to , as I said earlier, get their ducks in a row, prior to presenting findings and recommendations.
The AFA has no buisness judgeing schools, they can comment all they want however they need to focus and fix internal problems before they can cast any stones.
What makes Butler sacrosanct? The findings of the Task Force and Butler's comments mirrored each other. Both came to the same conclusions. No one, including the schools made Butler a whipping boy. In fact, the schools did quite the opposite. They embraced him and have tried to make him a savior. In so doing, they only confirmed that which was stated by Butler and reported by the AFA. Manure by any other name still stinks.
My reply to Rick: I do not think any of these issues would have been hot button topics if the AFA had been up front and communicated better.
History shows you to be wrong.
In closeing, hey lessons learned nobody is perfect. I hope the AFA has learned something from all of this. But from what I read in there News letter, it does not appear they feel they have made any mistakes.
Interesting, I read the same newsletter, and I got a much different impression.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:licensing 17 Feb 2006 18:22 #389

Rick Burten wrote:
Interesting, I read the same newsletter, and I got a much different impression.

I will have to re-read it and get back to you.

Rick, I have to say your replys have clarified many things. I consider this all part of good communications and gaining a better understanding. Sometimes things get messy when discussions like this take place, however I think it is all good stuff. I spoke a little with John Blombach and I can tell everyone first hand this man is seeking to understand things with an open mind, he is very aproachable and listens.

I think you asked a very good question that I have heard simalar remarks from other farriers that should be given a lot of thought by AFA leaders.
Rick Burten wrote:
What makes Butler sacrosanct? The findings of the Task Force and Butler's comments mirrored each other. Both came to the same conclusions. No one, including the schools made Butler a whipping boy. In fact, the schools did quite the opposite. They embraced him and have tried to make him a savior. In so doing, they only confirmed that which was stated by Butler and reported by the AFA.

John Blombach asked why do people like Gene Ovyneck?

Why do people like Chris Gregory?

The list can on and on, there are several good examples of succesfull teachers and leaders in this industry.

One thing I learned in the military it is not the rank on the shoulders that gains respect it is the person wearing the rank.

Now before people get there panties in a wad, I am not suggesting anything about Craig. I really do not know the man personaly, except for a few comments he made that maybe I misunderstood, but they did rub me the wrong way. Especially the Train analogy, that kind of ****ed me off actually, but that is water under the bridge now. I have thought a lot about what Craig must have done to be the AFA President, time away from family and friends and still provideing for his family. That takes a tireless effort and strong work ethic. From what I have seen in the PF mag. his work is outstanding, a person does not get to that level of shoeing without hard work and dedication. I have the upmost respect for Craig and thank him for dedicateing his time for the betterment of the trade. Volenteering for any orginization is a thankless job and impossible to make everyone happy. It is a middlemagement job and you work for two sides and often stuck in the middle.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:licensing 18 Feb 2006 00:03 #390

  • Rick Burten
  • Rick Burten's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Enforcer
  • Posts: 9082
  • Thank you received: 50
  • Karma: 8
Phil Armitage wrote:
I will have to re-read it and get back to you.
Phil,
I don't know if you still have it, but the June 2005 issue of "No Foot, No Horse"(Volume1, Issue 1) contains some interesting reading with an article by Walt Taylor("Another Look at Professional Standards for Farriers") and a printed copy of the Special Report to the AFA BOD ,presented on behalf of the Farrier Education/Registration Task Force, by Dr. Mike Miller, MD, CJF, on 23Feburary2005. Said report has come to be referred to by some, as "The Miller Report". I think everyone should read or re-read these articles so that we may then have a truely intelligent discussion on the issues and what did or did not actually happen.

If you don't have that issue of NFNH, the AFA office should. It may also still be posted on the AFA web site. If neither option works, I'd be happy to copy the articles and send them to you.

And, as this discussion continues(if infact it does continue), let us bear in mind the direct action(s) taken by the BOD, both initially and then later on in the year that followed.
Now before people get there panties in a wad, I am not suggesting anything about Craig. I really do not know the man personaly, except for a few comments he made that maybe I misunderstood, but they did rub me the wrong way. Especially the Train analogy, that kind of ****ed me off actually, but that is water under the bridge now. I have thought a lot about what Craig must have done to be the AFA President, time away from family and friends and still provideing for his family. That takes a tireless effort and strong work ethic. From what I have seen in the PF mag. his work is outstanding, a person does not get to that level of shoeing without hard work and dedication. I have the upmost respect for Craig and thank him for dedicateing his time for the betterment of the trade. Volenteering for any orginization is a thankless job and impossible to make everyone happy. It is a middlemagement job and you work for two sides and often stuck in the middle.
When Craig was first elected President, I was not only skeptical of his ability, but was unwilling to serve as part of his administration(At the time I was Chairman of the Publications Committee) so I resigned my committee chairmanship. Over time, I began to see Craig in a different light and realized that he truely did make the interests of the AFA and farriers, paramount. I thought Craig would be bad for the AFA, but he proved me wrong. To that end, on numerous occasions, I have told Craig that very thing. Did he make some mistakes? Of course. Name me one person in a position of leadership and responsibility that doesn't. But those mistakes were not made in an effort to hurt any individual or the profession.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Kunena Birthday Module

  • JWHORSESHOEING birthday is today
  • TheCircleT birthday is today
  • THOROBREDS birthday is today
  • Chris Daniel birthday is in 1 day
  • FordWayFarm birthday is in 1 day
  • Hillbilly898 birthday is in 1 day
  • songlyrics32F075 birthday is in 363 days
  • SonnysMom birthday is in 363 days
  • Rude_n_Ugly birthday is in 364 days
  • Russ in WI birthday is in 364 days
  • Tcasey1968 birthday is in 364 days
Time to create page: 0.251 seconds

S5 Box

Register

*
*
*
*
*
*

Fields marked with an asterisk (*) are required.