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TOPIC: licensing

RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 01:09 #346

George Geist wrote:
Wayne,
Yes I'd be proud to be called your buddy. The legality of the whole thing is very simple. When a state grants you a license to do something. Anything. Then nobody can stop you from doing that which you are licensed to do.

Now, hate to get back to this but I'll use this example. There are people out there who do not believe in private firearm ownership. They will stop at nothing to get rid of that part of our culture. When legislation passes which only affects guns that are ugly. or guns that are short. There are a large number who say as long as I got my shotgun to hunt ducks I dont care. This is foolish. The goal is anything that goes bang. I think most of the guys on these forums understand that. Now, under the laws of most states, concealed carry requires a license. That means no matter what the laws of a locality are, if you get caught by a cop carrying and you have a license, he'll say ok, be on your way. Nobody can stop you from doing what your licensed to do.

As far as thinking it cant happen to us with our work, this is equally foolish. In my state it has happened to Dentists. They have been arrested. Massage therapy is no longer legal. nor is chiropractic nor is any other non-traditional or homeopathic type treatment. There was even an Amishman arrested for gelding a horse. That case became an embarrasment and was later dropped with his promise never to do it again.

I think the saddest thing I've seen with the dentists is that the ones who are being reported for doing what they've always done, are being reported by their peers who are not working. Petty jealousies are ruining that trade. These laws MUST be overturned.
George

George I am glad you brought up the right to bear arms. How about the AFA operates like the NRA. The NRA is not for licensing they are there to fight for your freedom and the right to bear arms not to license gun owners. I totaly agree with doing back round checks, registering and licensing someone that feels the need to conceal a weapon. You can legaly walk around with a weapon that is not concealed, yes there are local ordinances and gun laws and I respect that. Now how about the AFA fights for our right to practice the trade and just be there as a watch dog if licenseing happens.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 01:24 #347

  • George Geist
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Phil,
The 501(c)(3) deal legally prohibits their doing any kind of lobbying for anything. The AFA is locked out of politics. If you want that I suggest trying the union.
George
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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 01:41 #348

  • wwhite1973
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Originally posted by Phil Armitage
Lets start another orginization that is more inclusive, what do you think? What do others think?
Thanks Phil. I don't know that we need another organization out there. It would be nice if the three out there could sit down put aside egos and iron out their differences and bring forth a united front for the sake of the farrier industry. No one organization is perfect. We simply don't live in a perfect world and we know what the old saying about opinions is. What these organizations have to do is find a way to sign up new members and keep them signed up. It will take every organization out there to fight for farrier rights and the effort of every one of those organizations members. One of the rules in any engagement is divide and conquer.

My ole buddy George. We will never agree on licensing farriers. I accept that, but I guarantee you I will be right there beside you, with my sleeves rolled up to fight to overturn any law that is detrimental to our industry.
The vets in Missouri, to the best of my recollection, all ready tried to lobby to get a law passed to make it unlawful for an owner to give a horse a flu shot, Eastern Western, Potomac so forth and so on. It garnered little support and soon died. In all fairness I should say Veteran Association, because a lot of the vets I knew were dead set against it. Personally I feel vet laws may get support from some big time vets, but it is the rural vets who would have a big say in it and be against it. They would know what it would do to their business and how it would affect the equine industry and their relationship with the equine owners.
George you bring up the gun industry again. They to have some differences of opinions. There are those who never hunt and just like to target practice. Some gun owners don't see a need for assault weapons or rapid firing guns and those that think they should have the right to use them in target practicing anyway. The NRA represents both groups and give gun certification classes, young people clinics, gun safety classes so forth and so on but don't force them down any ones throats. They are ther if you want to improve your shooting skills and basic knowledge of guns. They don't go around knocking other gun organizations, and even though comparing gun ownership to the farrier industry is like comparing apples to oranges, one thing we can say is that NRA knows how to organize.
Wayne
AFA Member #10310 IRB Thoroughbred Licensed Blacksmith
Please! Don't steal. The government doesn't like the competition!
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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 01:46 #349

  • wwhite1973
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Originally posted by Phil Armitage
Now how about the AFA fights for our right to practice the trade and just be there as a watch dog if licenseing happens.
Well said Phil! I would like to amend that to "Any Farrier Organization" not just the AFA.
Wayne
AFA Member #10310 IRB Thoroughbred Licensed Blacksmith
Please! Don't steal. The government doesn't like the competition!
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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 02:02 #350

  • wwhite1973
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One important thing about the National Trapping Association is that they also have state chapters since states regulate trapping laws and their memberships have large numbers. Most all of us agree that any farrier regulations would be done at the state level. That is why there needs to be more emphasis on state farrier organizations. The NTA is large enough to help supply muscle and financing for any campaign detrimmental to trappers rights. It is the state chapters that does the biggest part of the lobbying for trappers and this makes perfect sense, since they are registered voters in that state. Believe me, I can tell you that we come against some heavy hitters (two that come to mind Missouri Humane Society and PETA) who are always out to stop trapping. Even the US Congress has tried to pass legislation to stop trapping all together thankifully with little success. They are conducting a study to try and dictate what traps should be used, but they don't tell people that the otter population is coming back in Missouri because trappers in Indiana ( I beleive it was) caught otters in leg hold traps and traded them for Missouri turkeys.
Maybe I am comparing apples to oranges again but the farrier industry can learn a lot from these organizations.
Wayne
AFA Member #10310 IRB Thoroughbred Licensed Blacksmith
Please! Don't steal. The government doesn't like the competition!
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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 02:53 #351

  • Gary_Miller
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tbloomer wrote:
Gary,

The majority of AFA members are not certified. If the AFA started a marketing campaign which tells the public that certified farriers are better farriers, what would that tell people about on non certified members? What would be the message heard by non certified farriers who are also not AFA members? Would the non certified farriers feel like the AFA was looking down on them? Is there a way for the AFA to create a market demand for certified farriers without alienating non certified farriers?

The AFA could turn certification into a political hot potato almost as big as the licensing issue. How do they make certification popular with horse owners AND with farriers who are not certified? How do you convince a farrier that has been running a sucessfull business for 20 years that he or she needs to be certified? Peer pressure? That only works when the MAJORITY of your peers have something that you don't have.

As an AFA certified farrier I am part of a very small minority. If my non certified peers think that I THINK I'm a better farrier, that makes me look like an arrogant prick even if I never open my mouth. Just having the AFA Certified Farrier decal in the window of my shoeing rig has caused me to come under fire - mostly from harness race platers who are not certified, but earn close to 6 figures shoeing the top race horses in my area. They KNOW that I can't do what they do. I'm not in their league. The best I can do is to show them a lot of respect for their skills and experience and minimize the certification as something I did because I liked the challenge.

Tom Bloomer, CF
Tom, go back and reread my remarks. I did not say the AFA should promote better. I said the should promote and market the benifits of using a certified farrier. And I don't think anyone with any lick of sense can argue against the benifits of being certified or using a certified farrier.
And so what if the other non members or non certified farriers don't like it. They can ether get on board and become certified, or do their own marketing to promote themselves to the public.
The bottom line is a certified farrier has taken a test and recieved the credentuals that prove they have the knowledge and skill to do a good job.

Gary
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 03:03 #352

  • Gary_Miller
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George Geist wrote:
Before everybody piles on this certification thing let me remind you all that it does have its own thread.
George, not trying to turn this in to an argument or discussion about the certification program it self.

However, I feel certification,licensing and registration all go hand in hand.


Gary
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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 03:06 #353

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Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
Now, why haven’t you renewed your membership? :D
Lets just say it was a management decision due to funding restraints.

Gary
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 03:13 #354

  • T.N. Trosin
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Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
Are you suggesting that Craig is not?

Ron, my question specificly singled out the current treasurer of the AFA.
Soliceter General Warning: This message may not have been spell checked for your protection
Just a piece of advice, think to yourself is this something I would say in front of a client, before your click the submit button.
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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 03:22 #355

  • Gary_Miller
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Phil Armitage wrote:
I am who I am take it or leave it. Maybe I could have a couple of more promotions and a better military retirement if I played the politics. I remember that quality **** when I was in the military also. Leave your egos at the door, be a part of the solution not the problem etc. etc. etc. I talked to some of my ole buddys still in my unit and nothing has changed they still have the same ole problems they had 20 years ago and even worse. Money talks and BS walks is the way I see it.
I agree that the military handled their quality program was a failure. However the concept is good and has helped many compaines improve their way of doing business.
The problem the military had/has was people in leadership postions saw it as a threat to the authority in makeing decisions about the systems in their control. This was especally true in senior enlisted personal and jounior officer. They could not check thier EGOs at the door and work from the facts and data.
Only when feeling and egos are checked at the door, and the dicisions are based on the data and facts. Will a solution be found that is satisfactory to all.

Gary
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 04:32 #356

  • Mike Ferrara
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Gary_Miller wrote:
And I don't think anyone with any lick of sense can argue against the benifits of being certified or using a certified farrier.

What are the advantages of being certified? What are the advantages of using a certified farrier?

And so what if the other non members or non certified farriers don't like it. They can ether get on board and become certified, or do their own marketing to promote themselves to the public.

Exactly. The AFA doesn't know which way to go. They want to promote their certification program but yet they want every one to join the AFA. Since the membership includes certified farriers, non-certified farriers and even non-farriers, in order to speak for the membership they must speak out of all three sides of their face. Which of those groups represent the largest portion of the membership? I'll bet it isn't certified farriers. So...whenever there's a conflict they need to decide whether they will act according to the will of the majority or do something else.


The bottom line is a certified farrier has taken a test and recieved the credentuals that prove they have the knowledge and skill to do a good job.

Gary

No. A certified farrier has taken a test to recieve a credential that proves they were able to earn a passing score on the specific tasks included in the test. Nothing more and nothing less. While one might be wish to infer from that a certified farrier would be a better choice to shoe my gaited horse or trim my foal, such a link has not been demonstrated and it certainly can't be logically derived based on the contents of the test since the ability to do those jobs wasn't tested.

That's one of the common misuses of certifications. One might, and often does, mistakenly assume that a certified farrier is certified in all things of farriery and that just isn't the case.

I can only see three cases that will cause the public to choose a certified farrier over a noncertified farrier based on the presence or absence of the certification. One is licensing where the decision is forced. Two is a very successful marketing campaign that sells the public on those inferences I mentioned above without data. Three would be if the horse owners actually gain and observe a clear and demonstratable advantage when they hire a certified farrier that they clearly observe is lacking when they hire a noncertified farrier. Since we haven't defined the advantages that we're talking about, lets call it bang for the buck. I must be happy about the way that I spent my money. Number three is the only case where the decision is being made based on data. We know that number one hasn't happened but since horse owners at large don't seem to go out of their way to hire certified farriers, I would say that numbers two and three haven't happened either.


I would really like to do a study. If I excersized care in choosing 100 farriers...care being defined as interviews, I look at some of their work, get references and so on...and I did this not knowing whether any were certified or not...would I be able to use their performance to accurately predict which ones were certified? Since the certification is just certification and not more specific like a "flat shoeing" certification or a "light shoeing" certification , I would see no reason to limit the types of work used in the study. If certification is the type of indicator that some seem to suggest I should see the same advantages regardless of the nature of the work. What is your prediction?

Here's a study that has easier to manage lagistics. If I were to drive around the country visiting barns and watching farriers at work and grading them based on all aspects of their work that I'm able to observe...horsemenship, people skills and shoeing, will the certified farriers consistantly score higher? If I interview the clients will they consistantly be happier? Will the horses consistantly perform better or be healthier?

When we look at the numbers will certification end up being a determining factor or a "had no effect on the outcome". Again, what's your prediction? How reliable is "certification" as an indicator of how satisfied I'll be with the service I get for my money?
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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 04:56 #357

wwhite1973 wrote:
Ronald you make some very good points here and it is a concern worth looking at but it is not something for an organization with only maybe 5% of all farriers in the US to decide it is going to be the spokes person for the other 95%.
Actually if estimates on the number of farriers are correct the AFA has an active membership of something like 10% of the farriers in the US. Also if the estimates are correct at some point something like 30% of the farriers in the US have been or are members of the AFA not counting for those that have died or retired.
wwhite1973 wrote:
You see the way most of us see it in my neck of the woods, is, do what ever you want inside your organization that is fine, but we haven't made the AFA our spokesperson. We may be rednecks but we ain't the dullest tool in the shed either. See, if it comes down to a fight in our state we'll have our people sitting there next to you, but you won't be speaking for us.
Since I do not know what neck of the woods you are from I can only say that it would be good if you come to the fight well armed. Of course you should have more facts than you simply think that you should be left free to practice as you feel you need to.
wwhite1973 wrote:
I think some of the people in the AFA need to realize that there is a group out there who think the AFA only looks down their noses at us
It is my personal opinion that there is nothing the AFA can do about this. If people are insecure, they are insecure and are always going to feel this way. That the AFA has designed a certification system that is intended to foster superior skills has lead to a tendency on some of the less mature members to be overly inflated because they have achieved some level of certification. But as they get older they do tend to grow out of a lot of that. Most of the people I have met since joining have been supportive, accepting and encouraging. If those that you have met aren’t that way keep trying, there are more of the good guys that the bad.

There are types of shoeing that the AFA has tended to ignore. The one that most comes to mind is walking horse shoers. I work with one during the show season to help him keep up and I know that the way he shoes is not anticipated by anything the AFA has developed a knowledge base on. I believe that this myopic world view tends to warp the way people see how the AFA goes at it. I hope that the AFA cures this short coming in the near future.
wwhite1973 wrote:
I know these were AFA initiatives put forth by the AFA for its members and yes really those of us who aren't members have no say so. All I am saying they need to figure out why they can't gain more members or keep the ones they have before they start making proposals for the farrier industry.
Actually the AFA has yet to make a proposal. What they did ham handedly attempt was to begin the ac***ulation of information on the state of farrier education. The only proposal that has been made was a methodology to develop a framework that would yield a solid and measured response in the event that licensing or the perceived potential threat from the changes to the vet practice act actual come to fruition. That some segments of the industry have managed to twist the AFA’s actual intent into a conspiracy designed to establish a dictatorship is simply amazing to me. It either speaks highly of the ability of those interests to manipulate sheep into believing anything, or it speaks clearly to the gullibility of those that have chosen to believe their lies.
wwhite1973 wrote:
In closing if the AFA really feels all these threats are out there, then I think the AFA needs to go and mend some fences, take care of its own organization and try to bring all farriers together again so we can take on any attempt to harm our industry as a whole and not a splinter group.
What the AFA most needs to do is to figure out how to not speak on an issue until it has all of its facts clearly do***ented and those facts present a clear, convincing and conclusive picture of the issue. If the industry chooses to accept those facts and join the AFA on the issue cool, the industry chooses to ignore those facts cool. The AFA however will continue to be out front in a leadership role no matter what. What the rest of the industry wants the AFA to do isn’t something that should drive the AFA’s policies. Only clear thought, good intent and a certain knowledge that the facts are unequivocal are what the AFA needs to represent its memberships interests. A lot of people may not like that, but leadership is tough and sometimes it is very lonely.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 04:59 #358

Gary_Miller wrote:
Lets just say it was a management decision due to funding restraints.

Gary
I know how that feels. :eek:
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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"What is popular is not always right; what is right is not always popular." Unknown

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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 05:02 #359

T.N. Trosin wrote:
Ron, my question specificly singled out the current treasurer of the AFA.
I understand that. That John has evaded answering the question that I asked is also telling, don't you think?
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 05:31 #360

  • tbloomer
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Just for gits and shiggles you should go check out The Guild's RJF examination criteria. Compare it to the other testing criteria from other associations. I would consider that a real credential - even by Mikes criteria.

Tom Bloomer, CF

Trouble is, we Guild members are (rightfully) called/seen as elitists(not that any of us mind). Guild members do have something to offer the public/consumer that is far different than anything offered by any other farrier organization.

******************
Rick! Why are you editing my posts? Now your post is showing up as an edit in my post . . . and my post is showing up as a quote of myself. Keep your paws off my mouse dammit!

Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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