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TOPIC: licensing

RE:licensing 15 Feb 2006 03:43 #331

  • J.H. shoeing
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Jeff,
When you were a licensed peace officer, you have noted how variable the pay scale was; but do you know if the licensing fee scale varied as much also? Were you required to carry liability insurance and such and were those costs just as variable as the pay scale? Were you required to incur continuing education fees for credits towards retaining your license?

My friend in the insurance business has to do CE and a recent perusal of a CE bulletin showed that the CE course cost 250.00 and up according to which credits and courses would be needed to retain their specific license.

Seems the insurance industry has various licenses based on what insurance you will be proferring. Is this sometinh the farrier industry has considered? Various licenses required for the various types of shoeing required?

Kim
I have never paid a licensing fee on my P.O. license I paid my own way thru the Police Accademy and took the state exam that certified me. When a Police Agency picked up my Commission I was issued a license and as long as I keep up my C.E. hours and an agency holds my Commission I will have a license. I can keep my certification without an agency holding my Commission but I will not be licensed and would not technically be a Peace Officer.

As a Peace Officer the agencies that we work for take the burden of bonding us and we operate under their insurance.

On C.E. hours the agencies that carry us as licensed P.O.s will usually pay for our C.E. hours as if we are not current our liceses will be suspended by the state. Some guys will pay for classes that they want to take but the company does not want to send them to. You are usually only going to get the minimum training hours that the city/county/state/govt thinks will keep them out of court on liability issues and will keep your licensing C.E.s up to date.

I am still licensed as a Police Dept carries my Commission at this time. I just make sure my C.E.s are up to date and I work a very few hours a month for them to keep my time running in case I get to banged up to shoe horses.

Jeff, CF
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RE:licensing 15 Feb 2006 03:48 #332

Jason Maki wrote:
Rocky? Phil? Who's next "Quarry"? How about "Cole"?
Just trying to lighten the mood!

Thanks Jason, I feel better now. :D
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:licensing 15 Feb 2006 12:49 #333

Phil Armitage wrote:
Ronald I will work on my spelling how about you work on your reading and comprihentions skills.

I am a member of the A......F.......A.

Member #7480
You have my apologies. We all make mistakes, me more than most.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:licensing 15 Feb 2006 14:08 #334

Phil Armitage wrote:
I have to say I am very disapointed.
Now who is speaking in a condescending voice?
Phil Armitage wrote:
I understand we should be discussing the issue and you would like to have others think the issue is not a person.
It is not that I would like others to think it is not a person, it is that it is not a person. It is an idea that is in issue. Who had the idea, regardless of how good or bad the idea may be is not the issue. The idea in and of itself is the issue and a lot of people fail miserably to grasp that very simple concept and in that failure they distract from having a real and meaningful debate regarding the idea without insults and personal attacks.
Phil Armitage wrote:
See the problem is a small number wants to control a larger number and are trying to say they are doing it for our own good, the good of the horse and the horse owners.
Actually if you had been paying attention you would have seen that what was proposed was a system that would insure adequate education prior to the beginning of practice. A system that allowed anyone who could prove via testing, after adequate education, that they had achieved a specified skill level to practice the profession of farriery safely to go on into the practice of farriery. The proposed system would in fact put farriers practicing after completing the substantially more rigorous education requirements on a par with other professionals in training and the skillful application of that training. As I read it, without the rhetoric, what was being proposed was for the AFA to develop the educational and testing guidelines for presentation to lawmakers as the licensing question begins to gather steam. In fact I believe that it would also be a damn good idea for professional farriers to have developed their own practice act template for presentation when the issue arises.

What is prompting the desire to address this at this point in time has been the changes that have been put in place by the Vets in their practice act template. No matter how many times they assure us that they do not want to regulate or control our profession until they add an exemption for farriers to the practice act template it is my belief that the end game for the Vets is to gain control of our profession. Do they want to shoe horses? No way, they don’t want to work that hard. But they would sure like to have some of our repeatable revenue stream. If they just took $5 a horse they would be pulling in a lot extra a month for just having a DVM license on the wall. The math is simple. If you shoe 8 horse a day and have to pay a vet $5 each for the privilege of continuing to earn a living the Vet is going to get on average an additional $860 a month in his pocket and that is coming out of yours and your clients pocket.

Most telling to me about the actual intent of the Vets and the AAEP was a conversation that I had with Dr. O’Grady at the IHCS. I asked a couple of blatant and leading questions about x-ray and sedation. I already knew the answers but I asked to create a forum that would allow me to get a feel for they way he thinks about what is and is not the practice of veterinary medicine. Included in those blatant questions were follow up questions about decisions for shoeing, the kinds of decisions that we make every day. Big surprise, his responses to my questions leaves me with the belief that it is Dr. O’Grady’s belief that any decision about how to shoe a horse other than the plain and simple application of a basic trim and shoe on a sound horse is the practice of veterinary medicine. If the horse is sore and we make a decision for how to shoe it we have in fact decided how to treat that sore foot and that treatment decision is the practice of veterinary medicine. If we see a founder horse in any phase and make decisions on how to help that horse be comfortable and recover from its founder we are making treatment decisions and that is the practice of veterinary medicine.

Now step back and think about this carefully. How many times do you say to yourself that you are going to treat X with Y every day? How often have you asked for RAD’s before you shoe a horse so you can make decisions about how you are going to apply a shoe? Well every time you do based on my conversation with Dr. O’Grady when you make that decision it is the practice of veterinary medicine.

This was my first exposure to Dr. O’Grady directly and frankly it is making me think really hard. Frankly I don’t like a lot of what comes to mind when I look at everything through this set of lenses when it come to what is and is not the practice of veterinary medicine and the practice of farriery.
Phil Armitage wrote:
How can we avoid discussing these persons when they are the issue. You cannot be that blind.
I guess I am blind. Having been in Corporate Management for so many years has just ruined my abilities to focus my mind of discreet items that need to be addressed without allowing my emotions to run rampant and in control of my mouth. I was schooled and learned the following:

1. If I have an issue with a person, I should address that issue directly with that person.
2. If I have a problem with how something is handled, I address that problem directly.
3. If I have thoughts about an idea or concept, I address my thoughts about that idea or concept directly.
4. I should not allow my feelings about how something has been handled to color my thoughts about a person or any idea or concept that they present.
5. I should not allow my feelings about a person to color my thoughts about the way something has been handled or any idea or concept that they present.
6. I should not allow my thoughts about an idea or concept to color my feelings or thoughts about a person or the way something has been handled handled.

So the question to you is, should I unlearn all of the above or is there something here that you can use to have a mature conversation about the issue of licensing and the forces driving the issue without the rhetoric, without attacking the people that have tried to present the idea and without compalining about how badly the conversation has been handled by the AFA up to this point?
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:licensing 15 Feb 2006 15:50 #335

  • Gary_Miller
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Ronald
Well said. If I understood you correctly you said we need to take the people factor out of the equation and discuss the issue only. With this I have to agree, when we allow feelings and personalities to enter equation then the issue gets undermined. In my days of quality training we were taught that the dicission needed to be based on thefacts of the issue and not on what we thought it should be. We had to collect the data and annalize it, determine the problem (if there was one) and then correct the problem all on the facts. Personalities and holy cows had to be left at the door.

In this whole issue of licensing the data and facts is what has been left out. I have read the AFA bilaws and found nothing wrong or incorrect with the way the leadership handled the situation. The president had all the right to appoint a task force to look into the issue. If there was anything improper it was the way the issue was presented to the BOD and the membership.

That said I do think the taskforce went at the issue the wrong way. I think they let their personal oppions and agendas over ride the facts. In all the information that I have seen, which is only what the general membership has, I have not seen any data supporting the findings that lead the taskforce to their recommendations. For this reason I think it was good that the BOD shut down the issue last fall.

However, I still think this is an important issue. And I'm afraid that the BOD will not take it up again out of fear of member retaliation. If this happens then the BOD is falling in thier responsabilities.

Lots of individuals have pointed to the AFA Mission statement and said the AFA leadership needs to focus on the mission of education like the mission statement says.

However, education is just part of the mission statement in fact it the last part. If you read in the middle you will find this "to provide leadership and resources for the benifit of the industry".

So with that said I think the AFA should step up to the plate of "industry leader". The goal should be to become the most reconized association in america. We should want people to say well whats the AFA think about this or that. As it is now the AFA is small. Many horse owners don't know it exsits and don't even kknow they have a good certification program for farriers. You can't even get anything from the office to help in educating the public. I know I tried. Then tried again, and was finaly told there was nothing.

If I was in a leadership postion in the AFA my number one goal would be to market the association so that it became the leading assoiociation in the farrier world. I would educate the public on the benifits of using an AFA certified farrier, I would work with the schools to help them become the best schools in the world so they were producing the best prepared students ready to become farriers. I would work on developing and apprenticeship program that was reconized by state education boards so student coould continue to take advantace of education funding while serving and apprenticeship.

The bottom line is I would do what it take to ensure that the AFA became the leader of the industry. So vets, governments, farriers, horse owners, and others would have no choice but to say. "What does the AFA think about this, or that subject."

I know I get hammered for this because I have not renewed my membership yet but thats ok. Active member or not I thilnk the AFA is a good thing.

Gary
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RE:licensing 15 Feb 2006 17:22 #336

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Gary_Miller wrote:
Ronald
Well said. If I understood you correctly you said we need to take the people factor out of the equation and discuss the issue only. With this I have to agree, when we allow feelings and personalities to enter equation then the issue gets undermined. In my days of quality training we were taught that the dicission needed to be based on thefacts of the issue and not on what we thought it should be. We had to collect the data and annalize it, determine the problem (if there was one) and then correct the problem all on the facts. Personalities and holy cows had to be left at the door.

In this whole issue of licensing the data and facts is what has been left out. I have read the AFA bilaws and found nothing wrong or incorrect with the way the leadership handled the situation. The president had all the right to appoint a task force to look into the issue. If there was anything improper it was the way the issue was presented to the BOD and the membership.

That said I do think the taskforce went at the issue the wrong way. I think they let their personal oppions and agendas over ride the facts. In all the information that I have seen, which is only what the general membership has, I have not seen any data supporting the findings that lead the taskforce to their recommendations. For this reason I think it was good that the BOD shut down the issue last fall.

However, I still think this is an important issue. And I'm afraid that the BOD will not take it up again out of fear of member retaliation. If this happens then the BOD is falling in thier responsabilities.

Lots of individuals have pointed to the AFA Mission statement and said the AFA leadership needs to focus on the mission of education like the mission statement says.

However, education is just part of the mission statement in fact it the last part. If you read in the middle you will find this "to provide leadership and resources for the benifit of the industry".

So with that said I think the AFA should step up to the plate of "industry leader". The goal should be to become the most reconized association in america. We should want people to say well whats the AFA think about this or that. As it is now the AFA is small. Many horse owners don't know it exsits and don't even kknow they have a good certification program for farriers. You can't even get anything from the office to help in educating the public. I know I tried. Then tried again, and was finaly told there was nothing.

If I was in a leadership postion in the AFA my number one goal would be to market the association so that it became the leading assoiociation in the farrier world. I would educate the public on the benifits of using an AFA certified farrier, I would work with the schools to help them become the best schools in the world so they were producing the best prepared students ready to become farriers. I would work on developing and apprenticeship program that was reconized by state education boards so student coould continue to take advantace of education funding while serving and apprenticeship.

The bottom line is I would do what it take to ensure that the AFA became the leader of the industry. So vets, governments, farriers, horse owners, and others would have no choice but to say. "What does the AFA think about this, or that subject."

I know I get hammered for this because I have not renewed my membership yet but thats ok. Active member or not I thilnk the AFA is a good thing.

Gary

Gary,

The majority of AFA members are not certified. If the AFA started a marketing campaign which tells the public that certified farriers are better farriers, what would that tell people about on non certified members? What would be the message heard by non certified farriers who are also not AFA members? Would the non certified farriers feel like the AFA was looking down on them? Is there a way for the AFA to create a market demand for certified farriers without alienating non certified farriers?

The AFA could turn certification into a political hot potato almost as big as the licensing issue. How do they make certification popular with horse owners AND with farriers who are not certified? How do you convince a farrier that has been running a sucessfull business for 20 years that he or she needs to be certified? Peer pressure? That only works when the MAJORITY of your peers have something that you don't have.

As an AFA certified farrier I am part of a very small minority. If my non certified peers think that I THINK I'm a better farrier, that makes me look like an arrogant prick even if I never open my mouth. Just having the AFA Certified Farrier decal in the window of my shoeing rig has caused me to come under fire - mostly from harness race platers who are not certified, but earn close to 6 figures shoeing the top race horses in my area. They KNOW that I can't do what they do. I'm not in their league. The best I can do is to show them a lot of respect for their skills and experience and minimize the certification as something I did because I liked the challenge.

Tom Bloomer, CF
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:licensing 15 Feb 2006 23:09 #337

  • George Geist
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Tom,
Before this takes legs and a life of its own, certification can bring with it those type problems especially with multiple layers of it. If you think the racetrack guys aren't impressed now, you should have seen them years ago. The fact that you can talk to them now at all shows how far we've come. Before everybody piles on this certification thing let me remind you all that it does have its own thread.

Ron,
Excellent post. You are 100% right with everything you said. For those who think that a vet practice law which excludes horseshoers is ok. Bear in mind that in politics we see this all the time with other issues. If they can pass a law initially, it will be much easier to get us in the name of "closing a loophole". Especially when we are what they want to begin with.

Ron thinks that they will take a percentage. Perhaps it may start out that way but I believe the eventual goal will be to make everybody employees. Some of you say I'm paranoid. Perhaps that comes from seeing horse dentists get arrested. Perhaps it also comes from seeing other equine trades wiped out of business overnight with the stroke of a governor's pen. If this can happen to them how safe are we?

I believe horseshoeing is the big prize. For vets to be covetous of taking over the books of a dozen or more horseshoers is too tempting. I will say right now that the Pennsylvania vet practice law stinks and should never have passed. The 2 individuals creating so much controversy about that for this election really ought to distance themselves from whatever role they played in it. To say a version passed that they were happy with doesn't impress me. They should have worked against it.

Again licensing would be a form of protection from this. Since it will probably never happen the future will bring changes. We will all have to adapt to new operating environments. Some of you may welcome this. If this happens get ready for a real loss of freedom as well as a large pay cut.
George
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RE:licensing 15 Feb 2006 23:31 #338

Gary_Miller wrote:
If there was anything improper it was the way the issue was presented to the BOD and the membership.
On this I disagree. Any board member can present anything to the BOD at any time during a meeting if it is in accordance with Robert’s Rules of Order. What the BOD did not do and what they should have done is to take the recommendations of the report under advisement and then tabled the issue until the BOD had been given an appropriate amount of time to consider each of the recommendations carefully.
Gary_Miller wrote:
That said I do think the taskforce went at the issue the wrong way. I think they let their personal oppions and agendas over ride the facts. In all the information that I have seen, which is only what the general membership has, I have not seen any data supporting the findings that lead the taskforce to their recommendations. For this reason I think it was good that the BOD shut down the issue last fall.
On this I agree completely. There was no data to back up the task forces conclusions. There were substantial areas of research that should have been conducted on a multitude of issue that simply did not happen and that lack of preparation left the conclusions of the task force week and unsupported. The pooch had its way with them because they did not dot every I and cross every T before they presented their recommendations and they deserved it. They forgot the 7 Ps, Proper planning prevents pretty p.i.s.s poor performance.
Gary_Miller wrote:
However, I still think this is an important issue. And I'm afraid that the BOD will not take it up again out of fear of member retaliation. If this happens then the BOD is falling in their responsabilities.
While I can not blame the BOD for dodging this issue for a very long time I do agree with you that in not doing so they are failing in their responsibilities. But then one day this issue is going to rear its ugly head in a big way and they will in up screwing it up then as well because they will be reacting before they can think the issues through. Not a good set of cir***stances no matter how you look at it.

Now, why haven’t you renewed your membership? :D
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:licensing 15 Feb 2006 23:42 #339

I am who I am take it or leave it. Maybe I could have a couple of more promotions and a better military retirement if I played the politics. I remember that quality **** when I was in the military also. Leave your egos at the door, be a part of the solution not the problem etc. etc. etc. I talked to some of my ole buddys still in my unit and nothing has changed they still have the same ole problems they had 20 years ago and even worse. Money talks and BS walks is the way I see it.

The Vet thing is a joke, no way no how are Vets ever going to want to shoe horses and no way no how is a Vet ever going to get a dime out of me.

All this discussion and everyone is leaveing out a key part of the whole industry. The horse owner. The horse owner is going to hire who they want period.

Horses are around for one reason and one reason only, Recreation. Nobody except the Amish needs horses to survive. This whole industry is recreational. Start messing with it and everyone will loose.

Speaking of money talks, I renewed my membership. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
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RE:licensing 15 Feb 2006 23:58 #340

  • George Geist
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Phil,
Nobody said any vet wanted to shoe. They dont. What they do want is the money. If this thing happens as it could. Owners will be required to call the vet to get their horses shod. The vet will prescribe shoeing and then dispatch a farrier to do the job. They will handle billing they will pay you. You will not pay them. You will work for them or you will not work. Think this is without precident? This is precisely the way the military did it. Horseshoers were enlisted men commanded by a vet who was an officer. It was efficient and worked great.

The problem I see with such a thing is that after getting control of everybody's book. Experienced horseshoers will get fired (far be it from us to not get along) and replaced with newer fresh out of school shoers who will work much cheaper and be happy just to be working. This will maximize profit. Horse owners will have no say at all since vets will have law on their side

I do believe if such a thing were to happen that they would have no clue what they were getting involved with. Think its easy getting along with us? I think they'd be in for a rude awakening. At least temporarily anyway.
George
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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 00:09 #341

George will never happen, the horse industry is not that ******. The Equine market is bigger than it has ever been and still growing. Start messing with the horse owners say in all this and bingo the market will decline so fast your head would spin. I can invision a huge mess, we could debate this to death and add hundreds of responses just on this subject.

There is so much more to horses than what a Vet thinks. Haaa, I originaly said Most horses I meant Horse owners, (but the later might also be true, reason for sedateing) do not trust a Vets horsemenship abilitys and observational skills. I hear this from horse owners all the time. Post this topic on the horse owners section and see what you would get for feedback. Vets will welcome a battle with farriers after dealing with the Equine industry and horse owner. Not going to happen.

I had horse owners trusting my ability over a Vets on foundered horses in my first year. I can't tell you how many times I have heard horse owners say they will listen to a farrier before they listen to a Vet. I am not trying to slam Vets and I do not encourage this method, this is just fact and it has been this way ever since I can remember. Over 25 years ago the barn I boarded at didnt trust the Vet. they doctored there horses and if they had issues talked to the farrier first. It worked very well and kept things simple, cost less and many horses were better off for it.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 00:21 #342

  • George Geist
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Phil,
I hope it never does happen. I'm saying with legislation it could though. As far as the rapidly growing horse industry we continue to hear about. Yes, the money continues to grow. It is a 10 billion dollar a year industry in my state alone. As I said before horses are getting more expensive and owners are getting more rich. The thing that is NOT happening is an increase in horse numbers. It hit a high water mark around 1987 and has held pretty steady and even declined in some areas. Not a huge decline but a steady one nonetheless usually coinciding with the overall economy.

There are many reasons for this but for sake of brevity I'll stop here
George
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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 00:24 #343

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Originally posted by George Geist
Again licensing would be a form of protection from this. Since it will probably never happen the future will bring changes. We will all have to adapt to new operating environments. Some of you may welcome this. If this happens get ready for a real loss of freedom as well as a large pay cut.
George I am sorry I really don't mean to be picking on you, but how in the hell is licensing going to protect us from:
Originally posted by Geroge Geist
Ron,
Excellent post. You are 100% right with everything you said. For those who think that a vet practice law which excludes horseshoers is ok. Bear in mind that in politics we see this all the time with other issues. If they can pass a law initially, it will be much easier to get us in the name of "closing a loophole". Especially when we are what they want to begin with.

Ron thinks that they will take a percentage. Perhaps it may start out that way but I believe the eventual goal will be to make everybody employees. Some of you say I'm paranoid. Perhaps that comes from seeing horse dentists get arrested. Perhaps it also comes from seeing other equine trades wiped out of business overnight with the stroke of a governor's pen. If this can happen to them how safe are we?

I believe horseshoeing is the big prize. For vets to be covetous of taking over the books of a dozen or more horseshoers is too tempting. I will say right now that the Pennsylvania vet practice law stinks and should never have passed. The 2 individuals creating so much controversy about that for this election really ought to distance themselves from whatever role they played in it. To say a version passed that they were happy with doesn't impress me. They should have worked against it.
That can still happen even if we have a new peice of ****license in our back pockets. All the vets have to have is some politician in their back pocket. Licensing isn't going to change a dad gum thing when it comes to this kind of threat.
The excuses for licensing get lamer and lamer. The AFA does not have enough active members or money to sway any legislator in any state in the union! Period!
Originally posted by Ronald E Kramedjan
Actually if you had been paying attention you would have seen that what was proposed was a system that would insure adequate education prior to the beginning of practice. A system that allowed anyone who could prove via testing, after adequate education, that they had achieved a specified skill level to practice the profession of farriery safely to go on into the practice of farriery. The proposed system would in fact put farriers practicing after completing the substantially more rigorous education requirements on a par with other professionals in training and the skillful application of that training. As I read it, without the rhetoric, what was being proposed was for the AFA to develop the educational and testing guidelines for presentation to lawmakers as the licensing question begins to gather steam. In fact I believe that it would also be a damn good idea for professional farriers to have developed their own practice act template for presentation when the issue arises.
Actually if the AFA would have done their research they would have found that the farriers outside the AFA didn't realize that the farrier god had died and the AFA had taken over. You see those of us outside the AFA want to know why they are so qualified to make the decisions. Their membership numbers sure don't reflect it. If they are so sure how a school should be run then open one up and run it.
Originally posted by Ronald E Kramedjan
What is prompting the desire to address this at this point in time has been the changes that have been put in place by the Vets in their practice act template. No matter how many times they assure us that they do not want to regulate or control our profession until they add an exemption for farriers to the practice act template it is my belief that the end game for the Vets is to gain control of our profession. Do they want to shoe horses? No way, they don’t want to work that hard. But they would sure like to have some of our repeatable revenue stream. If they just took $5 a horse they would be pulling in a lot extra a month for just having a DVM license on the wall. The math is simple. If you shoe 8 horse a day and have to pay a vet $5 each for the privilege of continuing to earn a living the Vet is going to get on average an additional $860 a month in his pocket and that is coming out of yours and your clients pocket.

Most telling to me about the actual intent of the Vets and the AAEP was a conversation that I had with Dr. O’Grady at the IHCS. I asked a couple of blatant and leading questions about x-ray and sedation. I already knew the answers but I asked to create a forum that would allow me to get a feel for they way he thinks about what is and is not the practice of veterinary medicine. Included in those blatant questions were follow up questions about decisions for shoeing, the kinds of decisions that we make every day. Big surprise, his responses to my questions leaves me with the belief that it is Dr. O’Grady’s belief that any decision about how to shoe a horse other than the plain and simple application of a basic trim and shoe on a sound horse is the practice of veterinary medicine. If the horse is sore and we make a decision for how to shoe it we have in fact decided how to treat that sore foot and that treatment decision is the practice of veterinary medicine. If we see a founder horse in any phase and make decisions on how to help that horse be comfortable and recover from its founder we are making treatment decisions and that is the practice of veterinary medicine.

Now step back and think about this carefully. How many times do you say to yourself that you are going to treat X with Y every day? How often have you asked for RAD’s before you shoe a horse so you can make decisions about how you are going to apply a shoe? Well every time you do based on my conversation with Dr. O’Grady when you make that decision it is the practice of veterinary medicine.

This was my first exposure to Dr. O’Grady directly and frankly it is making me think really hard. Frankly I don’t like a lot of what comes to mind when I look at everything through this set of lenses when it come to what is and is not the practice of veterinary medicine and the practice of farriery

Ronald you make some very good points here and it is a concern worth looking at but it is not something for an organization with only maybe 5% of all farriers in the US to decide it is going to be the spokes person for the other 95%. Where I come from we call that arrogance. Like one of the local farriers said the other day it reminds him of a **** ant floating down the Mississippi River with a **** on screaming open the draw bridge. The sad thing is that some day we ALL may need to pull together to fight something like this however the AFA has drove a pretty big wedge between alot of farriers out there. If this happens, we need the NB people, barefooters, Guild, BWFA and the AFA to join together as a whole to fight this kind of legislation. It will take more than the AFA. Victory is in numbers and in my humble opinion the AFA needs to go out and rebuild some bridges they have burned down and start rebuilding if they really want to benefit farriers in this country. My buddy George (I hope you don't mind me calling you buddy George) has mentioned unions. Well stop and think about it' if the unions would have handled organizing the way the AFA has, they would have been history.
You see the way most of us see it in my neck of the woods, is, do what ever you want inside your organization that is fine, but we haven't made the AFA our spokesperson. We may be rednecks but we ain't the dullest tool in the shed either. See, if it comes down to a fight in our state we'll have our people sitting there next to you, but you won't be speaking for us.
Mr Kramedjan I hope you didn't think my ranting was too immature, but I think some of the people in the AFA need to realize that there is a group out there who think the AFA only looks down their noses at us and you have to earn our respect it can't be bought and we don't give freely. I know these were AFA initiatives put forth by the AFA for its members and yes really those of us who aren't members have no say so. All I am saying they need to figure out why they can't gain more members or keep the ones they have before they start making proposals for the farrier industry.
In closing if the AFA really feels all these threats are out there, then I think the AFA needs to go and mend some fences, take care of its own organization and try to bring all farriers together again so we can take on any attempt to harm our industry as a whole and not a splinter group.
Wayne
AFA Member #10310 IRB Thoroughbred Licensed Blacksmith
Please! Don't steal. The government doesn't like the competition!
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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 00:39 #344

Excellent Point Wayne

Lets start another orginization that is more inclusive, what do you think? What do others think?
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:licensing 16 Feb 2006 00:49 #345

  • George Geist
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Wayne,
Yes I'd be proud to be called your buddy. The legality of the whole thing is very simple. When a state grants you a license to do something. Anything. Then nobody can stop you from doing that which you are licensed to do.

Now, hate to get back to this but I'll use this example. There are people out there who do not believe in private firearm ownership. They will stop at nothing to get rid of that part of our culture. When legislation passes which only affects guns that are ugly. or guns that are short. There are a large number who say as long as I got my shotgun to hunt ducks I dont care. This is foolish. The goal is anything that goes bang. I think most of the guys on these forums understand that. Now, under the laws of most states, concealed carry requires a license. That means no matter what the laws of a locality are, if you get caught by a cop carrying and you have a license, he'll say ok, be on your way. Nobody can stop you from doing what your licensed to do.

As far as thinking it cant happen to us with our work, this is equally foolish. In my state it has happened to Dentists. They have been arrested. Massage therapy is no longer legal. nor is chiropractic nor is any other non-traditional or homeopathic type treatment. There was even an Amishman arrested for gelding a horse. That case became an embarrasment and was later dropped with his promise never to do it again.

I think the saddest thing I've seen with the dentists is that the ones who are being reported for doing what they've always done, are being reported by their peers who are not working. Petty jealousies are ruining that trade. These laws MUST be overturned.
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
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