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TOPIC: licensing

licensing 27 Jan 2006 11:48 #1

  • T.N. Trosin
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I've been sick for a couple of days and haven't had much of an opportunity to see what was going on with the Poli-Sci board. Much to my dismay the one thread concerning Craig’s email disinagrated into a licensing discussion.

So you guys want to talk about farrier licensing? Here you go. I create this thread to discuss all aspects of farrier licensing pro or con with the hope that the discussion will be held here and not infect other perfectly good threads and not distract from the subjects in those threads. Opinion is fine, I will accept that, but have your facts straight, especially concerning the stance of the AFA.

As that Cowel guy says, “off you go”
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RE:licensing 27 Jan 2006 12:06 #2

Kind of like whiteline, once it starts in can get spread.

The discussion touched on insurance, other trades, contractors, law suits and how some trades are required to have liability insurance to get work.

Would licensing, registration and certification push the requirement for insurance. If insured would this open farriers to more law suits?

I think we would all like to fly under the Radar, however I believe those days are rapidly going away.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:licensing 27 Jan 2006 13:25 #3

  • tbloomer
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OK I copied this post from a non-licensing thread:

Originally Posted by George Geist
In some cases that might be so. I really dont know. most part-time horseshoers that I know of are that way because they want to be. All of us work about as much as we want to. Assuming what you say is true and it does do this, That would give what was left more work than they could possibly do right? Therefore, this should open up more apprenticeship opportunities as guys businesses expanded. This is if what you say is true which there is really no way to know. We do know that it woked in Illinois for nearly 100 yrs and they never sunk into lake Michigan.
George




George,

I have asked for and not received (from you) any factual response, which indicates that farrier licensing in the state of IL had the affect of increasing income for said licensed farriers. Since you have chosen to make this state an example, I am asking you to support your argument with some facts or in the least make a logical argument based on historical evidence.

You have (on another discussion board) made a claim that during the time that the IL licensing law existed, there was a financial benefit to the farriers in that state. You claimed that they made 20% more than farriers in other states. You have claimed that ". . . guys that I have known personally who worked those shows in those days have told me that they never saw a bad job come out of Illinois"

It sounds like "Those Were the Days." If I were to accept your assertions as truth rather than conjecture then I should hope that a logical thought process would arrive at the conclusion that those farriers who were licensed in the state of IL would have learned to appreciate the benefits of the situation. Therefore when the law was changed, why would those farriers NOT make an attempt to keep the law on the books? Why give up 20% of your income?

If the IL licensing laws were such a great thing for the licensed farriers, why didn't other farriers in other states organize and lobby for farrier licensing? AND since you are pro-union, why didn't the union push for farrier licensing in order to improve the income of union farriers?

You have done a lot of theorizing here about how licensing and unions would benefit the income of farriers. However, you have failed quite miserably to support your conclusions with any hard facts. Your soft facts do not stand up to logical scrutiny.

Whenever I hear about legislation, which restricts trade and commerce, my first reaction, is FOLLOW THE MONEY. Who stands to gain financially from the law? You say it is the farriers. Thus far, I have not heard any other pro-licensing farrier make the argument that licensing would cause an increase of income for farriers. The rest of the PLF have resorted to political fear tactics and cried about the welfare of the horse. Their argument has been made at the emotional level and from the perspective that THEY should be the ones who get to decide who is and who is not licensed.

Your argument is based on the assumption that restricting the number of farriers allowed to practice the trade would cause a change in the balance of supply and demand, which would benefit the established competent farrier. The problem with that argument is that is does not pass historical muster when compared to any other profession, which has the "benefit" of licensing. The reason for that is very simple. Supply and demand will continue to work as it always has. The demand for "black market" farriers will go up. The cost of policing non-licensed black market farriers will be added to licensing fees. Alternative hoofcare providers will pup up and take advantage of "uninformed" horse owners.

We already have an historical example of supply and demand hurting a licensed trade. The American Veterinary Medical Association has been working for the last decade to revamp the veterinary practice acts in every state. Their sole reason for attempting to change the laws is to take advantage of the additional income that they are loosing to alternative "medicine." Homeopathy, massage therapy, dentistry, nutrition, and YES FARRIERY. These have all come under scrutiny with the new laws.

As a result of the AVMA strategy to gain a bigger market share by legislative control, horse owner based grass roots organizations have been formed in several states to fight changes in the veterinary practice acts. It is only a matter of time before some state veterinary board is hauled in front of the Supreme Court and challenged by a group of organized horse owners and alternative care providers. If the licensed veterinarian’s income is suffering (as the AVAM has concluded) due to competition from the free market, what good is their licensing law? Where is the credibility that this law is supposed to bestow upon these learned professionals? Where is the respect of the public? How dare these ****** horse owners resort to alternative treatments for their animals! How dare they question the efficacy or modern veterinary medicine! We need laws to protect these people from themselves . . . and keep more of their money for ourselves.

Meanwhile, what is your take on the situation with Ford and GM . . . what is the UAW going to do for their members? Why are they crying for a government bailout? Why should my tax dollars pay to support GM and Ford employees because the upper management of those companies made ****** decisions about what kind of vehicles to build when gas prices went up over $3/gal? Who lobbied for the tax credit for buying gass guzzling trucks and SUVs?

FOLLOW THE MONEY . . . it doesn't add up unless you write the total in RED!

Tom Bloomer, CF
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:licensing 27 Jan 2006 13:36 #4

Phil Armitage wrote:
Would licensing, registration and certification push the requirement for insurance. If insured would this open farriers to more law suits?
Phil,

In TN the vet practice act does not. So I see no reason for a farrier practice act to. If it does, it does. There is not much we can do about it except get insurance and be careful.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:licensing 27 Jan 2006 15:13 #5

  • Gary_Miller
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Moved from thread "Just Read Craig's E-mail"George Geist wrote:
Gary (Miller)
In some cases that might be so. I really dont know. most part-time horseshoers that I know of are that way because they want to be. All of us work about as much as we want to. Assuming what you say is true and it does do this, That would give what was left more work than they could possibly do right? Therefore, this should open up more apprenticeship opportunities as guys businesses expanded. This is if what you say is true which there is really no way to know. We do know that it woked in Illinois for nearly 100 yrs and they never sunk into lake Michigan.
George
George, my point is licencing/registration has a proven history of costing individuals more money through extra fees and costs with no representation. Which in turn drives up the cost of services to cover the new requirements.

I like to use Idaho's new contractor registration law because it the most recent I know of (Just went into effect as of 1 Jan 06). Its loaded with requirements that cost contractors, suppliers, and home owners lots of extra money. As well as placing constrants on which supplies that have caused them to ensure your registered before selling materials, or they lose lien rights. It has also made it next to impossable for a new or young person to start a contracting business due to the insurance costs.

On the home owner the law states that if you intend to sell your property within a year and you spend more than $2,500 in fixing up your house that you need be registered as a contractor. Knocks out the guy who buys fixer uppers does the work himself then sells at a profit.

Gary, Idaho is a also a right to work state. However that does not stop legislation to make it hard to do what you would like to do.


Gary
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RE:licensing 27 Jan 2006 16:06 #6

  • George Geist
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Tom,
Youve asked me about a multitude of issues, I'll try to cover all of them. The Illinois law had a sunset clause on it. Which as you know means a law automatically expires after a certain time. If I remember correctly I believe it to have been either 50 or 99 years in that state I'm really not sure. When it was passed horseshoers had a lot more political muscle. John Fitzpatrick who founded the United Steelworkers as well as the AFL was a horseshoer. He was also from Chicago. My research thusfar for my book has not yet revealed a connection but I have a very difficult time believing that this could have occured without his having a say in it. My work in that area is ongoing.

By the time this law sunsetted we had a different situation. Illinois horseshoers had become the same disorganized rabble that they are everywhere else. They hadn't the numbers, muscle, or intelligence to function in the political arena anymore. There were some rumors to the effect that the licensing boards were very corrupt(pay attention AFA) and there was also a rumor that I tend to believe more, that a particular politician had a lower priced horseshoer that couldnt pass his test so he personally killed the law to legally keep his horseshoer.

Others thought it ****** of them to be the only state licensed with none of the others in the country being that way. Try to understand in the late 1800s individual states were like their own countries. There was not much interstate travel and Chicago was the only real city in the whole region. With a lot of horses and work there its reasonable to assume that this is why this was done this way. In the modern jet age things are a bit different.

As to other occupations, I believe this passes historical muster with flying colors. Before they were licensed nurses made minimum wage. There was no schooling or testing required. Now they make $25 an hour and can pick and choose where they want to work. As late as the 1960s there were some southern states(naturally) that still had no licensing laws. They had no choice but to pass them and raise pay in order to stop the flow of personnel moving elsewhere. In 1969 X-Ray technicians became licensed. Pay went from $3hr to $7hr overnight. In all these trades they heard all the same anti-licensing arguments that you guys put forth. After it happened, none of them would ever go back.

There will be no cost of policing farriers who operate illegally. That will be done by the police department who will be more than happy to enforce any law on the books. Who will report them? Well, most of us probably wont but I guarantee you somebody will. Alternative hoofcare providers have already popped up because of our non-licensing. Licensing would run these charlatans out of town just as it did in Germany.

It would also be an effective defense against the vet practice acts. I agree with you that they have their eye on us too. If all those other occupations can be wiped out of business with the stroke of a governors pen how safe are we? I will not be an employee of any vet. Besides with my well known record of union activism who would hire me? Anyway point being is that when you hold a license from the state to do something, nobody can stop you from doing what you are licensed to do.

I do not believe the vets are hurting for money, I believe they want more. The old 1980s "greed is good" philosophy. I'll give one more example which all the Pennsylvanians out there can back me up on.

Pennsylvania is the most anal retentive state in the union with the issue of car inspection. Most states dont have it, those who do its tolerable. PA considers themselves a model state for inspection and are therefore the strictest. Brakes are measured with a micrometer and a rust hole the size of a dime will flunk you. We all know this to be chicken s***. There has never ever been one single study proving that car inspection does anything at all for highway safety. Nothing, zero, zilch.

So why do we live with such a ****** law? I believe some mechanic at one time got himself elected to something and made this happen. This law causes an awful lot of guys to have businesses often in spite of themselves. Are there shade tree mechanics? Sure. I dont think anyone can prove that they hurt licensed shops though. Most of them havent the time, equipment, or expertise to make a decent living at it and even if you do use them you have to then go to a licensed shop to get your inspection. This is a law that helps that particular trade.

I find the situation with Ford and GM deplorable. I have no idea what the UAW can or will do. The current leadership of the AFL-CIO are probably the worst people I can think of to be dealing with something like this. Nonetheless I dont think its fair to blame the working people just because they were employed by mismanaged companies. Perhaps if they had attempted to take better care of their workers, those who were making the money for them instead of bankers and wall street investors who are nothing more than parasites, things may have been different. I dont know. As for government bail outs, Chrysler started that along with countless other companies. Certainly nobody comes to bail us out if we dont do well do they?
I figure their crying for a bailout because they know they'll get one. I agree that your tax money should not go to that but it probably will. You want to get into what tax money shouldnt go to we could all really make a list right?

I think that covers all your questions
George
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RE:licensing 27 Jan 2006 16:23 #7

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Continued from thread "Just Read Craig's E-mail"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary_Miller
No da! The key word is currently. If you would have been paying attentioin yoou know that I have been following the current discussion on the issue of farrier registration recently brought up by the AFA from day one.

Ronald E. Kramedjian]Yes I have followed it very closely. To date I have not seen one bit of proposed legislation authored by the AFA. I have seen a lot of discussion about the kind of education that needs to be in place and of how the AFA can work to insure that farriers have a strong voice in the drafting of any legislation should it occur. Of course I have also seen a lot of manipulative and skewed reportage that has been targeted at hurting the AFA by people with an ax to grind.[/QUOTE]
Does it not start by discussions and opions on what individuals think should happen. All this has happen before any legislatioin is ever written.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary_Miller
Farrier licensing/registration is not yet here but give it time it will be one day. The equine industry is just beginning to really grow. Sometime in the future it will be noticed by legisators as a business/hobby instead of being part of the agriculture industry. When this happens licensing/registration will happen.

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
No Da!!!! Don't you think it would be a very good idea for us as a group to have done our homework before this happens. Just sticking our heads in the ground trying to avoid the issue puts us in a very good to give the government free access to our rear ends, don't you think?
I agree the home work needs done. Data needs collected, analized, discussed and dicisions made based on the facts, before anything get put in stone. I believe this is where the recent AFA task force lead by Mr. Tayor went wrong it was based on individual feelings, wants, and hidden agendas wrote:
All the more reason for us to get ahead of the curve and develop an industry wide plan to deal with it when it does arrive.
If the AFA wants to be the leading association in the industry, and I think they do. Then they need develope a plan to include writting the legislation in which they would submit if the issue comes up. The data would need up dated and the plan reviewed annually and tweaked as need based on the new data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary_Miller
I wish you would not have asked for this I just hate wasting my time. But some people just need to be shown in order to be proven wrong. Straight out of the Idaho occupation licensing/registration laws.
Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
Yeah, I forgot about the contractor laws and how often contractors go belly up or are incompetent. My wife busted my chops on that one. But I was refering to the professional practice acts and as far as I know they do not have insurance requirements built in.
Are farriers not contractor and don't farriers often go belly up or are incompetent?

You are correct in that individuals working in a trade may need to be licensed, in which they have to have so much schooling, apprenticeship hours, and exams. The individual is usually not rquire to have insurance unless they are also the contractor/employer. In which case the contractor/employer must have a license which usully require some type of insurance to be carried also.

Farriers are not only tradesman they are also contrators. So in this case as a tradesman a farrier may be required to have a professional license which could require some standard of education, maybe an apprenticeship as well, and certification or testing of some sort. Then they would be required to have a farriers contractor/business license which would require them to carry the insurance prevously mentioined. Both licenses would have to be renewed annually with the professional license requireing some CE hours in order to be renewed.

Starting to get costly now.

What are we into? An estimated 5 to 6 horses a year just for licenseing fees. Another 1 to 3 horses a month for insurance. Depending on your fees and where you live.

What do we get? A piece of paper with a number on that you are required to hang in your truck/trailer where it can be seen by your customers. You may also be required to put your number on the outside of your dhoeing rig, on your busness card, your invoices and your stationary.

I think our fore fathers would call this taxation without representation.


Gary M.
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RE:licensing 27 Jan 2006 17:30 #8

  • Rick Burten
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In the other thread, Phil said:PA wrote:
The issue of custody, care and control is a grey area
Not quite so grey. IIRC, the moment a farrier latches on to the horse, whether that be in haltering the horse in the stall and then leading it to the work area, or from the first moment the farrier touches the horse at the work area, he/she is deemed to have care, custody and control of the horse. Further, there is at least one court case where an owner successfully sued a veterinarian for damages incurred by the owner while holding their horse for the veterinarian. The court held IIRC that even though the horse was owned by the plaintiff, the plantiff(owner) was not deemed competent to hold the horse while the veterinarian worked on the horse. This precedent will be, IMNTBCHO, applied if an owner is holding their own horse for the farrier. Unless of course, the owner can be proven to be a well trained, competent, professional or professional level horseman/woman/handler.

Just something to think about.

I think what is really needed here is the advise of an attorney who practices equine law.

Now THAT would be a good article for the Professional Farrier Mag, or the AFJ, or an insurance agent/company, and/or as a main topic at a clinic, seminar, summit or convention.

Phil also saidPA wrote:
I wonder what would happen if someone sued a farrier because they thought you had insurance and you didn't?]
First of all, the farrier would have to retain a lawyer(win, lose or draw). Then the farrier would have to defend him/herself in court(remember "Animal Court with the venerable Judge Wampner? I remember a couple of times when a farrier was sued and tried to defend himself. It was really ugly and the farrier lost his case. And that was TV stuff. Imagine what could/would happen in a 'real' court of law). If the judgement was against the farrier, then whatever assets that farrier had, would be used to pay the judgement. Of course, the farrier could counter-sue, but it would still be on his/her dime. Whatever we have, whether it be a little or a lot, is at risk. One way of mitigating this risk is to become incorporated and be an employee of the corporation with the corporation, in addition to having entity insurance(s), providing insurance coverage for each of its employees.

I know that several of us have been asked to, or in actuality have, served as expert witnesses. We have seen , first hand, how badly(and expensively) things can go. Especially when an insurance company is not footing the bill.

Disclaimer: I am not, nor have I ever been, an attorney, nor do I play one on either radio or television. My comments are just things that have been explained to me by others, most of whom are attorneys. Reliance on what I have related, is discouraged for anything but thought, investigation, discussion and perhaps, individual action.
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RE:licensing 27 Jan 2006 17:46 #9

  • Gary_Miller
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George Geist wrote:
Before they were licensed nurses made minimum wage. There was no schooling or testing required. Now they make $25 an hour and can pick and choose where they want to work.
I donk't know about the history part of nursing licensing causing nurses to make more money.
However the wage earned no is not related to licensing but supply and demand. There is a shortage of nurses so hospitals are forced to pay more in order to get the nursing staff needed to do the work.
The shortage is due to not enough room in schools to take all the applicants, due to a shortage of nursing instructors. To be an instructor you need a masters degree.
However to be an RN all you need is a two year AAS degree. A new RN with a AAS degree starts out about $19.80 an hour with differental pay added for nights ($3.37 hr) and weekends ($1.58).
A nurse with a masters degree can make more working as a nurse than they can as a nurse instructer. Many of the nurse instructers at my wife school also worked part time at the hospital just to make ends meet.
Licensing did not get them the money. A shortage of nurses did.

Fees associated with getting and mantaining a nursing license

Initial license
$90 - license fee (Nonrefundable) must be submited before you can take the NCLEX test
$25 - temp graduate license fee (so you can work while waiting for a test date)
$200 - examination fee

Renewal every two years
$100 - license fee

For what? All for the right to practice in their chosen profession.

George Geist wrote:
There will be no cost of policing farriers who operate illegally. That will be done by the police department who will be more than happy to enforce any law on the books.
Like our law enforcement officers need more unnecessary work.

George Geist wrote:
I will not be an employee of any vet.
Why not you would be paid a good wage, have no overhead, a warm shop to work in, and paid benifits.
George Geist wrote:
Anyway point being is that when you hold a license from the state to do something, nobody can stop you from doing what you are licensed to do.
The state can by revolking your license or not renewing it for whatever reason.

Gary
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RE:licensing 27 Jan 2006 17:49 #10

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Gary_Miller wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary_Miller

If the AFA wants to be the leading association in the industry, and I think they do. Then they need develope a plan to include writting the legislation in which they would submit if the issue comes up. The data would need up dated and the plan reviewed annually and tweaked as need based on the new data.
I wholeheartedly agree! Unfortunately, as it now stands, that will not happen.
Originally Posted by Gary_Miller
Are farriers not contractor and don't farriers often go belly up or are incompetent?
Absolutely.
GM wrote:
Starting to get costly now.

What are we into? An estimated 5 to 6 horses a year just for licenseing fees. Another 1 to 3 horses a month for insurance. Depending on your fees and where you live.
Again, how much will it cost if one doesn't have insurance and has to pay, out of pocket, to defend against a lawsuit? Even if one wins the case, how much has it cost? And lets for the moment eliminate a licensing requirement and fees.
GM wrote:
I think our fore fathers would call this taxation without representation.
Happens every day. When was the last time you voted to increase your income taxes? Your property taxes? Sales taxes? Did you vote to require a hunting license? Fishing license? Drivers license? Did you vote to have a welfare state? How about a new library? new roads? etc. Did you vote infavor of higher fuel taxes? I don't know about you, but those who were elected to represent me sure don't seem to be representing me or my needs/concerns/issues or interests. Especially when it comes to taxation questions. So, in general, I feel I am being subjected to taxation without representation, both in general and specifically.
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RE:licensing 27 Jan 2006 18:18 #11

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Rick Burten wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree! Unfortunately, as it now stands, that will not happen.
I suggest the board get their head out of the sand and at least reopen the issue up for discussion. If they don't it will catch us of guard and then it will be too late.
Rick Burten wrote:
Again, how much will it cost if one doesn't have insurance and has to pay, out of pocket, to defend against a lawsuit? Even if one wins the case, how much has it cost? And lets for the moment eliminate a licensing requirement and fees.
I agree that have insurance is just a smart busniness practice. Right now it up to the individual farrier its a choice you can make. The diffrence is with licensing it takes the right of choice away.
Rick Burten wrote:
Happens every day. When was the last time you voted to increase your income taxes? Your property taxes? Sales taxes? Did you vote to require a hunting license? Fishing license? Drivers license? Did you vote to have a welfare state? How about a new library? new roads? etc. Did you vote infavor of higher fuel taxes? I don't know about you, but those who were elected to represent me sure don't seem to be representing me or my needs/concerns/issues or interests. Especially when it comes to taxation questions. So, in general, I feel I am being subjected to taxation without representation, both in general and specifically.
Ditto!!! Not only that but it seems the elected officials keep trying to find ways to get more more of my money. They always like to use the argument that it will only cost the average tax payer $?? more in taxes. A sacrifice of one nights out for dinner. Soon your paying $???? in taxes and can't go aout to dinner. I don't know about you but I like my dinner nights out.
It was not until I paid off my morgage and had to start taking $???? out of my pocket that I really found oout how hard it was to give up my cash for taxes. Untill then it was part of my payment and I didn't have to worry about it.

Gary M.
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RE:licensing 27 Jan 2006 19:33 #12

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Rick Burten wrote:
One way of mitigating this risk is to become incorporated and be an employee of the corporation with the corporation, in addition to having entity insurance(s), providing insurance coverage for each of its employees.

FYI Rick,

I incorporated my business this year. However in my investigation of civil law and corporations I learned that the only liability that incorporation protects you from is debt-liability. Debts incurred by a corporation can only be collected from the assets of that corporation. Creditors cannot come after owners’ and shareholders’ personal assets. Owners/share holders are only liable for debts up to the amount of their investment (stock) in the corporation. When it comes to professional practice liability or personal liability for negligence, the corporate entity AND the individual can be held liable. That is why most medical doctors and lawyers form LLCs instead of corporations - it doesn't protect them from malpractice liability or negligence torts.

Any legal tort action can be brought against a corporation AND an individual employee of a corporation - severally and collectively. The real protection of incorporation is when you file bankruptcy - you get to keep your personal assets and anything you own that is not corporate property.

I incorporated for income tax reasons. My FICA and MEDICARE are now based on my minimum wage salary. The rest of my income (quarterly dividends paid to share holders) is only subject to regular income tax. It's going to save me a substantial sum of money that I would otherwise have to pay as "self employment tax" if I remained a sole proprietor or an LLC.

My liability insurance has to cover Blackburn Forge, Inc. and Tom Bloomer, CF and anyone whom I might hire as an employee.

Tom Bloomer, CF
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302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:licensing 27 Jan 2006 20:02 #13

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George Geist wrote:
As to other occupations, I believe this passes historical muster with flying colors. Before they were licensed nurses made minimum wage. There was no schooling or testing required. Now they make $25 an hour and can pick and choose where they want to work. As late as the 1960s there were some southern states(naturally) that still had no licensing laws. They had no choice but to pass them and raise pay in order to stop the flow of personnel moving elsewhere. In 1969 X-Ray technicians became licensed. Pay went from $3hr to $7hr overnight. In all these trades they heard all the same anti-licensing arguments that you guys put forth. After it happened, none of them would ever go back.
George
Funny you should mention nurses. There is talk of passing affordable housing legislation is Sussix County, Delaware because nurses, police officers, and several other licensed professionals cannot afford to own homes in the area where they work due to the skyrocketing cost of realestate. To get $25/hr as a nurse in lower Delaware you have to have a masters degree. A 4 year RN only makes about $19/hr. Try buying a $350,000 home on that income. Meanwhile, most of my client base is located in that same area - because I can charge more for shoeing horses in that area then where I live. In Sussix County Delaware, (non union) framing carpenters make more money than nurses. Go figure! Maybe those poor licensed nurses need a union, heh?

Meanwhile anybody who is willing to study up for and pass the Microsoft, Cisco, and SANS certification tests can get a job working as a network security analyst $75k/yr with no professional licensing requirements. A Cisco Certified Internetworking Expert (CCIE) is worth 6 figures in any job market in the US. It's a tough test, but it's childs play next to the CJF exam. I used to have a lower level Cisco certification. I only had to study for a week to pass the test, but I got me a $5,000 raise in salary. My Novell certification got me a $10,000 raise in salary. It took me 3 months of study to pass the Novell tests. Imagine that. The highest paying IT jobs don't even require a high school diploma. If you have half a brain and can memorize the information to pass the tests, putting a Cisco certification on your resume is the only requirement for a high paying job with a nice fortune 500 company.

Did you know that the entire Internet is run by a bunch of highly paid unlicensed technicians? I know, I used to be one of those guys. There's a whole bunch of certified network gurus out there that can't keep a network from crashing to save their lives . . . but hey they've all got good paying jobs!

Tom Bloomer, CF
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:licensing 27 Jan 2006 21:56 #14

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Gary_Miller wrote:
I suggest the board get their head out of the sand and at least reopen the issue up for discussion.
Now that would be interesting to observe. Personally I hope they wait to do this until we're having a slow day here on the boards. That way, we'll be able to really liven things up again.
And, Gary, since you mention it, I'll nominate(and vote for) you to deal with the Franky Lundists and Richard Revilinskis, et al , not to mention the outraged private school owners, that will immediately weigh in with the same old tired, vitriolic, tripe. Personally, I think it will do them all good to get red in the face again.

By the way, has any one heard anything about the AFEC and its progress on its stated goal(s)? Or was that too just a tempest in a tea pot? Since I am aware that at least one and perhaps more private farrier school educators monitors these forums, perhaps one of them will step forward and update us on AFEC and its accomplishments to date,
I agree that have insurance is just a smart busniness practice. Right now it up to the individual farrier its a choice you can make. The diffrence is with licensing it takes the right of choice away.
There is no guarantee, only a supposition on your part, that mandatory insurance would be a part of a licensing package. And, philosophically, would carrying insurance be such a bad idea? After all, self-insuring can be both risky and expensive(even more expensive than the cost of any premiums or ac***ulation of premiuns over the years).

Years ago there was a guy, Bobby(aka BOOBIE) Lioti who went charging around trying to drum up support for requiring all farriers to carry mandatory insurance( Liability, CCC, etc). He didn't even want or care if farriers were licensed. He just wanted mandatory insurance. Fortunately, he was just flatuence on the wind. Initally a bit noisy and smelly, but quickly dispersed and made into non-discernable molecules of non-bombastic ******ity. At the time, Boobie made the tactical error of engaging Mssr. Tom Stovall and others on the Rec. Eq. newsgroup. A group where the literary and semantic style is, shall we say, a lot more freewheeling. There is no suit of protective armor, no hide thick enough, no defense strong enough to withstand that to which Boobie was subjected. Boobie then made the aggregious error of coming to FHRC(us) and trying the same stuff.
Due to the constraints placed on us by our benevolent dictator, it became a bit more challenging to deal with Boobie, but nontheless, we prevailed.

It was not until I paid off my morgage and had to start taking $???? out of my pocket that I really found oout how hard it was to give up my cash for taxes. Untill then it was part of my payment and I didn't have to worry about it.
I feel your pain! :(
Rick Burten PF

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."


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RE:licensing 28 Jan 2006 01:45 #15

Gary,
Gary_Miller]I agree the home work needs done. Data needs collected, analized, discussed and dicisions made based on the facts, before anything get put in stone. I believe this is where the recent AFA task force lead by Mr. Tayor went wrong it was based on individual feelings, wants, and hidden agendas wrote:
I agree with you on this and I have said as much here on this forum, in the review of the Caldwell Report, published here and circulated to the BOD before the mid year meeting, that started the recent unpleasantness and to Walt himself.
Gary_Miller wrote:
If the AFA wants to be the leading association in the industry, and I think they do. Then they need develope a plan to include writting the legislation in which they would submit if the issue comes up. The data would need up dated and the plan reviewed annually and tweaked as need based on the new data.
Again, I have said this in the past and continue to believe it to be the case. Unfortunately the BOD is feeling snake bit at this point and I do not believe that any of them has the stones to even approach a rational conversation on this issue for awhile and this is doubly certain as long as several of the schools have owners sitting on our BOD. It is a blatant conflict of interest but none of them had the class to stand down on the issue.
Gary_Miller wrote:
So in this case as a tradesman a farrier may be required to have a professional license which could require some standard of education, maybe an apprenticeship as well, and certification or testing of some sort.
I believe that a more advanced education would be prudent. I do not believe that that advanced education can be had in 6-8 weeks. However this is only my belief, I would like to see some research into this area that is conducted in a reasonable and scientific manner. Unfortunately the best opportunity for that was lost when the current farrier schools used hype to hammer even taking a look at the schools and the way they train students to become farriers.
Gary_Miller wrote:
What do we get?
Whenever this topic gets talked about this question gets asked. I don’t have an answer that will make you happy. However the horse should have a better shot at having a competent farrier. The owner should have a little less worry that the farrier they are using is competent. And finally most farriers coming into the business after receiving an advanced education should have more confidence and the skills to actually make it in this business. All of these outcomes would be good in my mind.

Guys that are practicing full time when such laws are passed will likely not see much benefit or change for a while. Guys that are practicing part time will either step up to full time or get out all together. My belief and again this is not based on any actual research is that there will be fewer farriers practicing after a licensing requirement is passed than before it. Of course if a testing component is included in the law for everyone and just education is grand fathered in a law I suspect that the impact will be slightly more significant.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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