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TOPIC: Rewarding Academic Fraud

RE:Rewarding Academic Fraud 09 Sep 2011 10:22 #136

Millwater Publishing wrote:
.

Gene's particular case aside, this brings up a potential stumbling block for ay of us who might use graphic representations in our presentations...

When you use diagrams or drawings (or as I often do, scaled mechanical drawings based on recorded or calculated measurements, then "sketchified" for appearance), everyone knows you're presenting an illustration. An image created to better convey the idea you were trying to get across.

Photographs have always been thought-of as documentation. Proof that something was the way you said it was. "Pictures don't lie", they used to say.

Then came Forrest Gump, and the line got seriously blurred. Now we can easily manipulate photographs to show whatever we want them to... And it's only natural that we'd use this ability to generate photo-based illustrations to reinforce what we're trying to say... Which can create a real problem if what we intended as an illustration is perceived as false documentation because it started out as a photo rather than pencil lead.

It's something we're going to have to be very careful about going forward.

.


Obviously you have a point, but it's sharpness is easily reduced to safe limits by a simple text with the pic. "altered for illustrative purposes". We get to see that all around us in commercial adds. I have no problem with altering pictures if that can help clarifying a point you're trying to make. I do have a MAJOR problem with images that suggest "real life representation" only to find out its been manipulated.

We all have experiences and we all feel like sharing them from time to time. Some feel the need to persuade others -with all good intentions- to use their protocol, because they honestly feel its a good protocol. When sharing ideas to help prevent reinventing of the wheel slides towards commercial interest is hard to tell and I would be careful not to step into a trap like that. But on the other hand the fact that anyone makes money of a good idea does turn them into liars perse.

With any presentation you are sharing ideas on a platform given to you. You need to be very careful to not fall off of that platform. And it looks like Gene Ovnicek fell where he easily could have prevented that.


Ronald Aalders
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RE:Rewarding Academic Fraud 09 Sep 2011 11:41 #137

  • Rick Burten
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Brian Purrington wrote:
Rick, I know where you are going with this. Do you really want to hash this out again?
If necessary. But this time perhaps we should do it in a court of law with sworn testimony from everyone.
I have no reason to, nor did I alter, misrepresent or or mis state what happened on the day in virginia you reference.
Others, myself included, have a different view.
It was an unfortunate circumstance but it is what it is, was what it was.
Absolutely. Its the recounting that is still in question. And because of that recounting, damage was done.
In hind sight, a public forum was not the place to have that discussion. I am sorry for making that mistake in judgment and wish that the resulting loss of friendship had not happened.
Lets see, you have called into question Mr. Ovineck's character based on an alleged pattern of behavior. You have engaged in a pattern of behavior where you use a public forum to hold a discussion that in at least one instance you admit should not have been held in that public forum. Using your own criteria, should your character now be called into question? Or is your 'apology' sufficient enough to give you a Mulligan and just move on?
I consider you a good man, a good farrier and I considered you a good friend.
Well, thanks. Maybe they'll use that as a part of my eulogy.
I have privy to the documentation.
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to present it so others can decide for themselves.
I wasnt at the lecture, all I have to go on is the reports of others. That being said where there is smoke there is usually fire.
Well, you have the report of two people who were actually at the lecture and both of those folks have stated that Gene made an effort to explain/issue a disclaimer about the photo that has caused this furor.
Agreed, everyone makes mistakes. Again Im not focusing on the offence.
If you are now saying that Gene made a mistake, then that is a far cry from a charge of 'academic fraud' and does not , at least IMO, even rise to the level of a charge of a "pattern of behavior".
Flattery won't get you anywhere with me.....
"Say it ain't so, Joe"
The profession will destroy itself, the profession IS destroying itself.
Others have a very different view.
This partuclar situation I cannot say but situations like it are going on every day in this profession. I think its time to make a stand.
Please share with us some examples of those situations which you say are occurring daily in this profession. To "make a stand" one should first insure that there is a solid foundation upon which to build it..........
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Rewarding Academic Fraud 09 Sep 2011 13:06 #138

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Rick Burten wrote:
. . .Please share with us some examples of those situations which you say are occurring daily in this profession. To "make a stand" one should first insure that there is a solid foundation upon which to build it..........
Examples;

Buying a mail order PhD.

Publishing findings of a "study" totally plagiarized to illustrate/support your political interests.

Making a reference to a study and claiming said study supports your views, when in fact said study doesn't have anything to do with your point of view.

Claiming a "status" or "recognition" not earned, like "Certified" or "Hall of Fame" or just allowing others to "say" you have earned that without correcting them.

Creating an "organization" with no legal standing in any state, then using said informal "club" to assign "credibility" to a particular group.

It's a lot easier buy, steal, plagiarize, or just make up a foundation and then sell the idea that you've built it. If you're successful with the selling part, anyone who digs into your foundation looking for the bedrock will be swept aside, denigrated, ignored, because you are protected by "market share" and "friends" with vested interests.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Rewarding Academic Fraud 09 Sep 2011 13:10 #139

  • Rick Burten
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Well, there's five examples, only 360 to go. And that's just for this year. ;)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Rewarding Academic Fraud 09 Sep 2011 13:17 #140

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Rick Burten wrote:
Well, there's five examples, only 360 to go. And that's just for this year. ;)
Just trying to step on as many big toes as I can. If I missed one it is probably because I was "looking the other way." :cool:
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Rewarding Academic Fraud 09 Sep 2011 22:02 #141

Rick Burten; If necessary. But this time perhaps we should do it in a court of law with sworn testimony from everyone.
Not intimidated but nice try.
Others, myself included, have a different view.
Blurred vison, visions of grandeure....
Absolutely. Its the recounting that is still in question. And because of that recounting, damage was done.
Amazing that a mere horseshoer could have influence over a "Master Farrier" and his career.... Really????
Lets see, you have called into question Mr. Ovineck's character based on an alleged pattern of behavior. You have engaged in a pattern of behavior where you use a public forum to hold a discussion that in at least one instance you admit should not have been held in that public forum. Using your own criteria, should your character now be called into question? Or is your 'apology' sufficient enough to give you a Mulligan and just move on?
I've not called character into question. For me there is no question.
So to be clear I made no "apology" I stated my personal feeling concerning my own actions. People can make any judgment they wish concerning me.
As for "moving on" I have already "moved on"
Well, thanks. Maybe they'll use that as a part of my eulogy.
You will never die, You will just smell bad. NO EULOGY FOR YOU!:p
Perhaps it would be worthwhile to present it so others can decide for themselves.
Not my place but for 29 bucks you can see the docs yourself online.
Well, you have the report of two people who were actually at the lecture and both of those folks have stated that Gene made an effort to explain/issue a disclaimer about the photo that has caused this furor.
Both stories different....
If you are now saying that Gene made a mistake, then that is a far cry from a charge of 'academic fraud' and does not , at least IMO, even rise to the level of a charge of a "pattern of behavior".
What happened in VA was a "mistake" altering a photo isn't.
ie. no one mistakenly photoshops......
"Say it ain't so, Joe"
Yep it's true.
Others have a very different view.
Must be the "blurred vision, visions of grandeure" thing again....
Please share with us some examples of those situations which you say are occurring daily in this profession. To "make a stand" one should first insure that there is a solid foundation upon which to build it..........
Tom laid out some good ones. I wont go into my local stuff but here are a few I have observed over the past six or so years....

One guy tested, in private, a partner involved in a political race for certification in order to establish "credentialed" credibility among the potential voters....

I have attended three clinics/events/tests where the same clinician, who under the Guiese of "Master Farrier", Bled or nailed horses during the presentation and then discounted it as less than it was, denied the insult or passed it off as something that just happens occasionally.

Another situation comes to mind where a group of certified individuals wanted to change test standards for the level of testing that they themselves had achieved. The new standard was to be more demanding. When someone suggested that there be no grandfathering and that all should retest for each practical level the concensus of the leadership declined the idea.

I think this might be enough examples but I have many more.

Regards,
Brian R. Purrington
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
www.wellshodhorses.com
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RE:Rewarding Academic Fraud 10 Sep 2011 00:32 #142

  • Eric Russell
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Brian - I would suggest dropping all that stuff in the past. Being a second or forth generation farrier I've know farriers who did good work in there day and just can't do what there mind wants anymore. It is what it is. We'll all be there. That's why I always say examiner for the AFA test shouldn't need to be able to do the work. They can see the work they just can't do it.

If you had a problem with what was going on you should've grabbed him and thrown him on the ground on the spot. Not much use bickering when your were there and did nothing if you disagreed with what was going on.

That Ron guy seems like he's become a decent farrier. I've not seen his work and he's probably an *******. It sounds like he's a good farrier and all the stuff about his certification should also be dropped.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.
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RE:Rewarding Academic Fraud 10 Sep 2011 01:43 #143

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Brian Purrington wrote:
Not intimidated but nice try.
No intimidation intended. Just want a level playing field where folks are legally accountable for what they say/allege.
Amazing that a mere horseshoer could have influence over a "Master Farrier" and his career.... Really????
Never said that but at least you recognize your station......
I've not called character into question.
Indeed you have.
So to be clear I made no "apology" I stated my personal feeling concerning my own actions.
Spin it anyway that sops your soul.
People can make any judgment they wish concerning me.
As though they need your permission to do so....:rolleyes:
As for "moving on" I have already "moved on"
Sure you have:rolleyes:
Both stories different....
Marginally, perhaps. Materially, not in the least.
What happened in VA was a "mistake" altering a photo isn't.
ie. no one mistakenly photoshops......
The mistake was in the confusing/less than adequate manner the alteration was explained. No attempt at subterfuge, no attempt at any kind of fraud, a simple error, not of judgement, but of manner of presentation.
One guy tested, in private, a partner involved in a political race for certification in order to establish "credentialed" credibility among the potential voters....
Lets not beat around the bush here. I was the Examiner and Ron Kramedjian was the candidate. It was a GPF certification, followed the rules, and was given because at the time, the candidate was going to be unable to attend the certification I was going to be officiating at with another GPF examiner that weekend. No one was more surprised or upset than I when Ron later showed up at the certification. It is true that Ron and I were campaigning together for office in the AFA. However your insinuation that the process was done for 'credibility' purposes is spurious, and completely incorrect. Ron had been working towards his RJF for some time and since I was traveling through his area to get to the certification location where I was one of the officials, and in consideration of the constraints in effect at the time, I stopped and tested him.
I have attended three clinics/events/tests where the same clinician, who under the Guiese of "Master Farrier", Bled or nailed horses during the presentation and then discounted it as less than it was, denied the insult or passed it off as something that just happens occasionally.
Since you are referring to me, I'm calling you an dam-n liar. On the one occasion in Virginia I did indeed quick a horse* during my presentation. I openly reported that incident right here on these forums when you, at that time, first lied about what had occurred. Now, if you would care to enumerate the other dates, time, and locations where you are alleging I either "bled or nailed" horses in your presence, I'm all eyes and ears.
Seems we have a pattern of behavior here, eh?

(right hind, when I started the medial and lateral quarter nails. It is important to note that those nails were started but not 'driven home' and were quickly removed and a different approach was employed)
Another situation comes to mind where a group of certified individuals wanted to change test standards for the level of testing that they themselves had achieved. The new standard was to be more demanding. When someone suggested that there be no grandfathering and that all should retest for each practical level the concensus of the leadership declined the idea.
So what? Tests evolve.
I think this might be enough examples but I have many more.
To quote the Bard, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." :o :)

(right hind, when I started the medial and lateral quarter nails. It is important to note that those nails were started but not 'driven home' and were quickly removed and a different approach was employed)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Rewarding Academic Fraud 10 Sep 2011 02:34 #144

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Eric Russell wrote:
. . .
If you had a problem with what was going on you should've grabbed him and thrown him on the ground on the spot. . .
No sir, that wasn't gonna happen on that day. Ya see, Rick was borrowing my farrier chaps, and I wouldn't let anybody throw him down and mess up my good chaps.

Since then I haven't washed them chaps either. 'Cause Burten wore 'em and that makes 'em special and lucky.
Tom Bloomer
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302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Rewarding Academic Fraud 10 Sep 2011 10:56 #145

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I would have respected Baron if he had come to me directly.

Original Message
From: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
To: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 6:10 PM
Subject: feedback from Baron regarding deleted poll/posts


Tom,

As promised I have the reason for the deletion and I don’t see a problem with it. Baron responded (minor editing by me):

He started a poll asking what punishment should be given to Gene, and it was worded in a derogatory way. If he wants to start a poll about people in this industry who rip people off and are breaking the law, there are plenty of real examples to start with, such as Fran Jurga, who everyone already agrees has committed fraud, and continues to rip people off. She’s plainly guilty of committing felonies (mail fraud), but she appears at numerous functions, speaks, is on their boards, etc…. I won’t let him single Gene out like that. If he’d done a poll with every single guilty party on it, that’s one thing.

Steve
_______________________________________
The title of the polling thread was as follows;
Vote: Should Gene Ovnicek be allowed to present at future farrier educational events?

It was a simple yes/no poll.

There was a reference to this thread. I did not vote in the poll. At the time Baron deleted the poll the statistics were 60%/40% to allow.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Rewarding Academic Fraud 10 Sep 2011 11:40 #146

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Note to self. Be careful of who I send emails to. Bloomer and others view nothing as private and it will most likely be post on horseshoes.com.
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RE:Rewarding Academic Fraud 10 Sep 2011 12:02 #147

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This thread not single Gene out........ if I must be 100 percent truthful....at first I felt Gene done a great injustice to the trade by photo shoping the pic...but after reading the thread and seeing the content the photo was used...had he photo shoped a end result that may be a real diff story......and I just don't understand why he even shoped the one he did...why not just say this is the foot and there was no change so therfore I change ways....with that said ...he made a poor judgement call...and I can see where others that do research work this be a real issue..but to a low country farrier like me I could find more issues with other stuff in the trade to be agravated about...should he be able to lecture again ..well I don't know...much like everything in this trade..its not as black and white as I wish and a lot of depends and grey areas...I find myself at the start of the thread maybe a little prejudging on the fact it involved NB..
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Rewarding Academic Fraud 10 Sep 2011 12:31 #148

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Eric Russell wrote:
Note to self. Be careful of who I send emails to. Bloomer and others view nothing as private and it will most likely be post on horseshoes.com.

That is scary!!!
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RE:Rewarding Academic Fraud 10 Sep 2011 12:58 #149

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Eric Russell wrote:
Note to self. Be careful of who I send emails to. Bloomer and others view nothing as private and it will most likely be post on horseshoes.com.

As you may or may not recall, the first interaction I had with him he posted my PM, fool me once shame on him. Didn't fool me twice, hince the edit, I assumed it would land here soon.

tbloomer wrote:

I would have respected Baron if he had come to me directly. [/FONT

I would have respected you more if you didn't use the forum to try to crucify people for sport and if you would respect private conversations but that is not how you roll. Baron has never been anything but honest and true to his word to me. Now I have to go deal with real problems.
Steve Turpin

"Never confuse a single defeat with a final defeat." F. Scott Fitzgerald

"No philosophers so thoroughly comprehend us as dogs and horses." Herman Melville[/color]
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RE:Rewarding Academic Fraud 10 Sep 2011 16:48 #150

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Eric Russell wrote:
Note to self. Be careful of who I send emails to. Bloomer and others view nothing as private and it will most likely be post on horseshoes.com.

Eric and others,

I know that Steve has also posted a reply to your post.

As I have suggested in the past, EVERYONE should be careful with what they write, on the net or thru usps etc.. some may feel that if it is written requesting privacy it will remain private ...that cannot insure it. I guess that's why the courts love the written word! If I may suggest...think before you type/speak and then do so carefully and with respect.


Regards

Ray Steele
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