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TOPIC: BUA Madness

RE:BUA Madness 07 Aug 2011 16:30 #46

DeniseMc wrote:
then sometimes pulling shoes and trimming will generate abscessing as the circulation increases and the body tries to heal from existing damage.

I don't think abcesses are caused by increased circulation and the body trying to heal. I think they are caused by trauma and bacteria.

DeniseMc wrote:
The abscessing was just the body's way of getting rid of the damage once circulation through a better trim or better shoeing was restored.

Again, abcesses are in no way a healing process. They are a pathology in themselves. Perhaps caused by another lesion of some type, but nevertheless...

Do you think "the body" decides that "a good abcess is just the thing to make me feel better?" LOL
Rick Shepherd

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RE:BUA Madness 07 Aug 2011 16:58 #47

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DeniseMc wrote:
... But if a horse has undetected lameness issues... then sometimes pulling shoes and trimming will generate abscessing as the circulation increases and the body tries to heal from existing damage.

The abscessing was just the body's way of getting rid of the damage once circulation through a better trim or better shoeing was restored.

Denise, these two comments appear to be in conflict and are based at least to some extent on what I believe is an unsubstantiated premise; that being, "horseshoes reduce circulation in the hoof".

Your first comment suggests that shoes contribute to a loss of circulation and that pulling them and trimming the foot increases circulation.

That premise is based on numerous assertions made on various barefoot websites and is almost always attributed to the works of either Dr. Bowker or Dr. Strasser. I have not been able to find any published research by Bowker that supports the claim; only alleged word-of-mouth cites from lectures he has given. Even in those cites, he isn't presenting published research but rather, his opinion in an open forum.

Your second comment suggests that circulation in the hoof is increased via "better shoeing".

Can you explain the apparent discrepancy in your comments and provide any published research that identifies a relationship between shoeing horses and reduced vascular circulation?

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:BUA Madness 07 Aug 2011 17:01 #48

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don't think abcesses are caused by increased circulation and the body trying to heal. I think they are caused by trauma and bacteria.

I don't think there is always bacteria involved; sometimes yes, sometimes no. But abscessing is the body's way of getting rid of traumatized, damaged tissue. The damaged tissue can sometimes be minor and get broken down and resorbed or the damage is removed through abscessing.
Again, abcesses are in no way a healing process. They are a pathology in themselves. Perhaps caused by another lesion of some type, but nevertheless...

You can look at any way you want.
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RE:BUA Madness 07 Aug 2011 17:31 #49

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Denise, these two comments appear to be in conflict and are based at least to some extent on what I believe is an unsubstantiated premise; that being, "horseshoes reduce circulation in the hoof".

Your first comment suggests that shoes contribute to a loss of circulation and that pulling them and trimming the foot increases circulation.

That premise is based on numerous assertions made on various barefoot websites and is almost always attributed to the works of either Dr. Bowker or Dr. Strasser. I have not been able to find any published research by Bowker that supports the claim; only alleged word-of-mouth cites from lectures he has given. Even in those cites, he isn't presenting published research but rather, his opinion in an open forum

Mark,
I have attended one of Dr. Bowker's lecture in which he presented results of his own unpublished studies. I wouldn't necessarily dismiss them just because they are unpublished. I think he is going to be one of the speakers at next years IHCS--I don't know what he's presenting, but I'd wager some probably won't even go because he's a speaker.
Your second comment suggests that circulation in the hoof is increased via "better shoeing". Can you explain the apparent discrepancy in your comments and provide any published research that identifies a relationship between shoeing horses and reduced vascular circulation?

I don't see any apparent discrepancies. And although anecdotal are you saying you have not seen the end result of "poor trimming or poor shoeing" showing up as poor hoof horn quality? Good horn quality is dependent on many factors ie nutrition, amount of movement, environment, good blood supply, etc, but when the only changes made are say, shortening the toe, or bringing down heels or just removing the shoe and hoof horn quality vastly improves I'd say it's a pretty good indication there's been positive changes in vascular circulation (or vice versa when one sees negative changes to the hoof horn quality and the only difference is how the hoof is being trimmed/shod). I think balance of the hoof, through trimming or shoeing affects blood flow through the hoof. I know it is no longer available, but Dr. Pollitt's Hoof Study video shows some very thought-provoking images.
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RE:BUA Madness 07 Aug 2011 17:37 #50

DeniseMc wrote:
I don't think there is always bacteria involved; sometimes yes, sometimes no. But abscessing is the body's way of getting rid of traumatized, damaged tissue. The damaged tissue can sometimes be minor and get broken down and resorbed or the damage is removed through abscessing.

You can look at any way you want.

Apparently there are others who look at it the same way :):

4075 Iron Works Parkway • Lexington, KY 40511
Phone: 859-233-0147 • Fax: 859-233-1968

Hoof Abscesses


By Brian W. Fitzgerald, DVM

Lameness: General
- Oct 29th, 09

Hoof Abscesses Explained

Hoof abscesses occur when bacteria get trapped between the sensitive laminae (the tissue layer that bonds the hoof capsule to the coffin bone) and the hoof wall or sole. The bacteria create exudate (pus), which builds up and creates pressure behind the hoof wall or sole. This pressure can become extremely painful.

AAEP Forum article courtesy of The Horse magazine, an AAEP Media Partner.


Copyright © 1996-2011 American Association of Equine Practitioners.
All rights reserved.
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:BUA Madness 07 Aug 2011 17:39 #51

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Mike Ferrara wrote:
The other is making the claim that abscessing after shoes are removed was really caused by the shoes and is a good sign. This is criminal...or should be.

It may be a criminal act.

If you engage in what is considered lawfully fair business competition, then no harm, no foul.

If however, you engage in competitive activities through the use of untruthful means with the intent to malign or cripple another's business, such practice is unlawful as defined by tortious interference.

Tortious Interference is the theory of the tort or wrong of interference wherein the law draws a line beyond which no one may intentionally meddle with the business affairs of others.

For a barefoot trimmer to publicly advertise, advocate and otherwise publicly assert that the installation of shoes is routinely causal of pathological injury to horses goes beyond an enticement to legitimately compete for business and could be interpreted under law to be both untruthful and willful interference in another persons legitimate business.

It would be incumbent upon the claimant to prove that shoes are routinely causal in hoof pathologies to prove such allegations. It would not be necessary that the farrier prove shoes are not causal in the alleged pathology.

While one may be a doctor who eschews the use of antibiotics, it would be legally imprudent to publicly decry the use of antibiotics by other practitioners based on an unsubstantiated claim that antibiotics routinely cause serious pathology. The pharmaceutical companies may take serious issue with such claimants.

Individually, I may be unlikely to invest in and pursue legal action against a distant practitioner who willfully and untruthfully maligns my small business but, had I the broader vested interest and deeper pockets of Kerckhaert or St. Croix, I may take generous exception to any such public claim that my product routinely inflicted serious injury to the equine recipients of that product.

I may even go so far as to insist that they prove it in a court of law.

After all, if farriers and horseshoe manufacturers are directly responsible for the routine and serious injury of the equine species in an effort to financially bilk horses owners of their hard earned money, then this information should be brought to light immediately and demonstrated as fact.

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:BUA Madness 07 Aug 2011 17:52 #52

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Hoof abscesses occur when bacteria get trapped between the sensitive laminae (the tissue layer that bonds the hoof capsule to the coffin bone) and the hoof wall or sole. The bacteria create exudate (pus), which builds up and creates pressure behind the hoof wall or sole. This pressure can become extremely painful.

If there is damage from rotation of the coffin bone and no penetration of the sole there can still be abscesses that form with no bacteria present. It's damaged tissue that is recognized as needing removed.
Denise
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RE:BUA Madness 07 Aug 2011 17:53 #53

Good one Mark. A+

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:BUA Madness 07 Aug 2011 17:57 #54

DeniseMc wrote:
If there is damage from rotation of the coffin bone and no penetration of the sole there can still be abscesses that form with no bacteria present. It's damaged tissue that is recognized as needing removed.
Denise

Do you suppose the bacteria could have entered through/between the compromised (stretched and dead) laminae that preceded the rotation?
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:BUA Madness 07 Aug 2011 18:04 #55

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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DeniseMc in gray

Re: Abscesses

I don't think there is always bacteria involved; sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Bacteria are most often present in the purulent material that characterizes septic abscesses, but other microorganisms are sometimes involved.

But abscessing is the body's way of getting rid of traumatized, damaged tissue.

"There are two types of abscesses, septic and sterile. Most abscesses are septic, which means that they are the result of an infection. Septic abscesses can occur anywhere in the body. Only a germ and the body's immune response are required. In response to the invading germ, white blood cells gather at the infected site and begin producing chemicals called enzymes that attack the germ by digesting it. These enzymes act like acid, killing the germs and breaking them down into small pieces that can be picked up by the circulation and eliminated from the body. Unfortunately, these chemicals also digest body tissues. In most cases, the germ produces similar chemicals. The result is a thick, yellow liquid—pus—containing digested germs, digested tissue, white blood cells, and enzymes. U]emphasis mine[/U

As the process progresses, the tissue begins to turn to liquid, and an abscess forms. It is the nature of an abscess to spread as the chemical digestion liquefies more and more tissue. Furthermore, the spreading follows the path of least resistance—the tissues most easily digested. A good example is an abscess just beneath the skin. It most easily continues along beneath the skin rather than working its way through the skin where it could drain its toxic contents. The contents of the abscess also leak into the general circulation and produce symptoms just like any other infection.

Sterile abscesses are sometimes a milder form of the same process caused not by germs but by nonliving irritants such as drugs. If an injected drug like penicillin is not absorbed, it stays where it was injected and may cause enough irritation to generate a sterile abscess—sterile because there is no infection involved. Sterile abscesses are quite likely to turn into hard, solid lumps as they scar, rather than remaining pockets of pus."

[Fauci, Anthony S., et al., editors. Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1997.]

The damaged tissue can sometimes be minor and get broken down and resorbed or the damage is removed through abscessing.

Despite your parroting of barefoot dogma, an abscess does not remove damage to tissue, an abscess causes tissue damage!

You can look at any way you want.

The choice is clear: One can either believe science or your barefoot dogma. One or the other, there is no middle ground.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:BUA Madness 07 Aug 2011 18:45 #56

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Just an abscess. But this horse never had shoes.



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RE:BUA Madness 07 Aug 2011 19:08 #57

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Despite your parroting of barefoot dogma, an abscess does not remove damage to tissue, an abscess causes tissue damage!
These enzymes act like acid, killing the germs and breaking them down into small pieces that can be picked up by the circulation and eliminated from the body. Unfortunately, these chemicals also digest body tissues. In most cases, the germ produces similar chemicals. The result is a thick, yellow liquid—pus—containing digested germs, digested tissue, white blood cells, and enzymes. [emphasis mine]

As the process progresses, the tissue begins to turn to liquid, and an abscess forms.

Conceivably, a hoof with poor circulation could be damaged (ie cracked bar) and bacteria could enter and just fester (digesting tissue) without forming an actual abscess; actually that explains alot.. With circulation, the body recognizes the festering damage caused by the bacteria, caused by the trauma and then forms the abscess, expelling it, removing the damaged horn in the process.
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RE:BUA Madness 07 Aug 2011 19:28 #58

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Mark,
I don't know where or when the phrase "shoes are a necessary evil" originated, but it isn't a new phrase originating within the past 15 years or so. Dr. Rooney mentions it in his book The Lame Horse and I doubt he originated it. What do you suppose is meant by that phrase?
Denise
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RE:BUA Madness 07 Aug 2011 19:56 #59

Denise, I'm not Mark, but maybe he meant something along the lines of "if shoeing and trimming were the same price, we wouldn't be talking so much about horses going barefoot."

(edit) I've never seen proper shoeing ever harm a horse, but I've seen a lot of barefoot horses that need shoes. I've seen horses that "get away" with going shoeless, but most of them are pretty much not being used to their potential.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:BUA Madness 07 Aug 2011 20:10 #60

  • Jack Evers
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[/QUOTE]
Conceivably, a hoof with poor circulation could be damaged (ie cracked bar) and bacteria could enter and just fester (digesting tissue) without forming an actual abscess; actually that explains alot.. With circulation, the body recognizes the festering damage caused by the bacteria, caused by the trauma and then forms the abscess, expelling it, removing the damaged horn in the process. [/QUOTE]

Here we are back at square one. Please give me a documented study of circulation vs shod or unshod to support this bogus BUA claim. Not someting like Dr Strasser's claim that "anyone who handles a lot of hooves knows the shod feet are cooler", which even if it were true (it isn't) still wouldn't necessarily be connected to circulation.
Jack Evers CJF AFA#426

The best things about the good old days -- I wasn't good and I wasn't old.

The older I get, the more horses I shoe, the fewer things that I can absolutely, positively fix.
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