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TOPIC: Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish?

RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 21:45 #61

  • Mark_Gough
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Eric Russell wrote:
A lot of people on these boards seem very worried about resections. Why would a farrier want to take off the hoof capsule without a veterinarian involved?

Who said anyone was "worried"? It was one example of a treatment that a farrier may perform that could be viewed as infringing on the territory of the veterinarian.

Eric Russell wrote:
Personally, I think farriers need to get this idea out of there head that anytime they see something wrong in the hoof capsule it needs to be removed. That includes quarter cracks.

I can't find where someone stated that "anytime" something is wrong it needs to be removed. On the other hand, there certainly are times when removing wall is appropriate and beneficial. Distortion, flares, over-growth, significant white line disease, broken bars, etc.

Western Hill Forge wrote:
Interesting that they left out equine dentistry.

Good point. Given it is not in the list of exemptions, one can only presume that lay dentists cannot operate legally under these rules. Perhaps someone who works in the UK can enlighten us further.
In section 13, did you overlook the "and" the fitting ...? My interpretation of this is that the word "fitting" is synonymous with applying, and is included, by virtue of the use of the phrase "prior to and".

Nope, didn't miss it and I agree that it could be interpreted that way. The use of the word "prior" is unnecessary in the context of shoeing a horse and therefore may have been intended to suggest something else. Lawyers are incredibly fussy about the use of language and context. They will quickly jump on the difference between "shall" and "must" if it serves their need.


Cheers,
Mark
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 22:18 #62

  • British Matt
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Mark_Gough wrote:
Who said anyone was "worried"? It was one example of a treatment that a farrier may perform that could be viewed as infringing on the territory of the veterinarian.



I can't find where someone stated that "anytime" something is wrong it needs to be removed. On the other hand, there certainly are times when removing wall is appropriate and beneficial. Distortion, flares, over-growth, significant white line disease, broken bars, etc.



Good point. Given it is not in the list of exemptions, one can only presume that lay dentists cannot operate legally under these rules. Perhaps someone who works in the UK can enlighten us further.



Nope, didn't miss it and I agree that it could be interpreted that way. The use of the word "prior" is unnecessary in the context of shoeing a horse and therefore may have been intended to suggest something else. Lawyers are incredibly fussy about the use of language and context. They will quickly jump on the difference between "shall" and "must" if it serves their need.


Cheers,
Mark

Anyone can float teeth here, but I think there are restrictions on removing teeth and administering sedatives
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 22:33 #63

  • solidrockshoer
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Mark_Gough wrote:
Who said anyone was "worried"? It was one example of a treatment that a farrier may perform that could be viewed as infringing on the territory of the veterinarian.

If you decided enough of the hoof capsule needed to come off and you might draw blood, wouldn't you want a vet there?
I can't find where someone stated that "anytime" something is wrong it needs to be removed.

Read through some threads it's a common theme.
On the other hand, there certainly are times when removing wall is appropriate and beneficial. Distortion, flares, over-growth, , broken bars, etc.

LOL, these things certainly fall under farriery.
White Line Disease

Why wouldn't you talk to the owner about calling the vet if you thought the foot had a disease?

Also, who came up with the idea that the farrier should decide a hoof capsule should be removed?
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 23:15 #64

  • tbloomer
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Mark_Gough wrote:
. . . a treatment that a farrier may perform that could be viewed as infringing on the territory of the veterinarian.
So vet practice laws protect the vet's territory from infringement?

My mom's side, pure Italian. Maybe I'll start a vet protection business. :cool:
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 23:32 #65

Mike Ferrara wrote:
Could you define "substandard work" for me? What standard? If you ask me, I set the standard for the hoof care that my horse gets.

Mike,
I could, but you wouldn't buy it, cause by your following statement the only standard or quality of work in your world is the Mike Ferrara standard. :D

Can I assume we will never again hear a criticism from you of any work posted here, because it obviously met "someone's" standard.:rolleyes:

Maybe it's like porn, we can't define it, but we know it when we see it.

How's this one look to you - it met the owners and farriers standard:

British Matt wrote:
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=557&pictureid=5064

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=557&pictureid=5065

.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 11 Feb 2011 08:28 #66

  • Mike Ferrara
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Western Hill Forge wrote:
Mike,
I could, but you wouldn't buy it, cause by your following statement the only standard or quality of work in your world is the Mike Ferrara standard. :D

The person paying the bill sets the standard.

Can I assume we will never again hear a criticism from you of any work posted here, because it obviously met "someone's" standard.:rolleyes:

Have you ever heard /read me criticize work posted here?

Maybe it's like porn, we can't define it, but we know it when we see it.

That doesn't work when you're talking about forcing somebody else to use that standard.

How's this one look to you - it met the owners and farriers standard:



Regards

Aren't those pictures from the thread titled "Negligent owner"? Didn't that thread say something about the owner having a reputation for not paying their bills and even having farrier bills still unpaid?

What farrier standard is going to fix negligent owners or get owners to pay their bills?

I could show you horses that haven't had their feet touched in YEARS. Do you think you can fix that by imposing your undefined standard on farriers?

I'll ask again...What is the problem that you're trying to solve?
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 11 Feb 2011 11:15 #67

  • tbloomer
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Ferrara, isn't that Italian?

Hey Mike, wanna get in on my vet protection business, on the ground floor?

Don Ferrara . . . has a nice ring. ;)
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 11 Feb 2011 11:24 #68

  • tbloomer
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
What farrier standard is going to fix negligent owners or get owners to pay their bills?
Hmmm, we could add "horse owner protection" to that business plan. :cool:
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 11 Feb 2011 11:59 #69

  • reillyshoe
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I found this interesting....I called the state board of veterinary medicine in Delaware and New Jersey to inquire about repairing a hoof defect (quarter crack). Both offices informed me that this was the practice of veterinary medicine, and would require a veterinary license. The Delaware office explained that any treatment or device used to treat/prevent lameness would require a veterinary license. When I asked if it was legal for me to shoe a horse, they told me to hire an attorney to interpret the law, which is interesting since they are in charge of enforcing the law....

I think I should fill out a complaint against myself and see what happens....
P
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 11 Feb 2011 13:39 #70

Mike Ferrara wrote:
The person paying the bill sets the standard.

Have you ever heard /read me criticize work posted here?

That doesn't work when you're talking about forcing somebody else to use that standard.

Aren't those pictures from the thread titled "Negligent owner"? Didn't that thread say something about the owner having a reputation for not paying their bills and even having farrier bills still unpaid?

What farrier standard is going to fix negligent owners or get owners to pay their bills?

I could show you horses that haven't had their feet touched in YEARS. Do you think you can fix that by imposing your undefined standard on farriers?

I'll ask again...What is the problem that you're trying to solve?

Mike, I posted that picture because it obviously met the owners, and therefore your standard. You know, the person paying the bill. Personally, I think it is indefensible.

I don't think your stated standard - "whatever the person paying the bill wants" - is acceptable on many different levels. I don't really believe it is acceptable to you either.

Actually, I would like things to pretty much stay as they are in the farrier business as far as regulation and standards, but I'm afraid that's not going to be the case. With regulation comes standards. This thread and the AVMA one are evidence of that. I know that licensing has been discussed on here ad nauseum, but it's starting to look inevitable.

Your attitude seems to be stick your head in the sand, 'cause everything is just fine, the market will work it out, and just let 'em try to get by without us. I don't think that's much of a solution to the big issue - non-farriers trying to take over the business.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 11 Feb 2011 14:01 #71

reillyshoe wrote:
I found this interesting....I called the state board of veterinary medicine in Delaware and New Jersey to inquire about repairing a hoof defect (quarter crack). Both offices informed me that this was the practice of veterinary medicine, and would require a veterinary license. The Delaware office explained that any treatment or device used to treat/prevent lameness would require a veterinary license. When I asked if it was legal for me to shoe a horse, they told me to hire an attorney to interpret the law, which is interesting since they are in charge of enforcing the law....

I think I should fill out a complaint against myself and see what happens....

Good post Pat.

THAT is the kind of thing that worries me. As ridiculous as it is, it's out there.

How hard do you think it would be to convince a bunch of legislators or bureaucrats that "shoes are bad for feet".

Silence on these types of issues is suicide.

Regards

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 11 Feb 2011 14:51 #72

Western Hill Forge wrote:
Mike, I posted that picture because it obviously met the owners, and therefore your standard. You know, the person paying the bill. Personally, I think it is indefensible.

I don't think your stated standard - "whatever the person paying the bill wants" - is acceptable on many different levels. I don't really believe it is acceptable to you either.

Actually, I would like things to pretty much stay as they are in the farrier business as far as regulation and standards, but I'm afraid that's not going to be the case. With regulation comes standards. This thread and the AVMA one are evidence of that. I know that licensing has been discussed on here ad nauseum, but it's starting to look inevitable.

Your attitude seems to be stick your head in the sand, 'cause everything is just fine, the market will work it out, and just let 'em try to get by without us. I don't think that's much of a solution to the big issue - non-farriers trying to take over the business.

Regards

Mr. Shepherd,

For the record, I am still against licensing. I always will be. The issue is the power grab by the AVMA, not your fellow farrier.
Julie :-)
Julie Plaster
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 11 Feb 2011 15:12 #73

Julie Plaster wrote:
Mr. Shepherd,

For the record, I am still against licensing. I always will be. The issue is the power grab by the AVMA, not your fellow farrier.
Julie :-)

Agree with you 100%, except Mr. Shepherd was my Dad.

If licensing, heaven forbid, is ever actually going to happen, I hope professional farriers are the main resources for the regulations. I just worry that it may happen without us, 'cause we are not paying attention, or organized enough to fight it.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 11 Feb 2011 16:33 #74

Western Hill Forge wrote:
Agree with you 100%, except Mr. Shepherd was my Dad.

If licensing, heaven forbid, is ever actually going to happen, I hope professional farriers are the main resources for the regulations. I just worry that it may happen without us, 'cause we are not paying attention, or organized enough to fight it.

Regards

This is an American issue. There are plenty of horses that need hoofcare to go around for everyone, on all levels.

The AVMA has no problem offering farriers a special deal that will divide us. This is not about licensing. This is a power grab by the AVMA.

Animal owners have a voice. Engage your owners.
Prepare to present this issue to your legislators in a productive manner.


Julie :-)
Julie Plaster
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 12 Feb 2011 04:07 #75

  • Rick Talbert
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mwmyersdvm wrote:
Hopefully this thread will spark some cooperative debate on how we can collectively formulate some type of organization or system by which veterinarians and farriers can work smoothly together to assist the horse to be the best he can be. I would propose that no profession is left out as chirpracters, acupuncturists, nutritionists, and many more can be considered in the future. Let's first get the top two groups in agreement and then slowly 'fold in' the other assisting professional into the total recipe.

Do I have any start up commentary? Let's try to work forward, forgive transgressions using them as 'things not to do' and create something we can utilize to everyone's benefit.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

I appreciate this sort of post. My question is, you say how can "we" collectively formulate an organization or system? Does that mean that you are or would be on board for organizing such an organization? (A system would be easier to accomplish, a few farriers and vets share concerns and write down a protocol of some sort, but then what good does that do? Doubt it would change much really.) An organization interests me, but an organization that is active in promoting mutual respect and cooperation. The way I see it is the veterinary profession has evolved over the last century to the point that they are now holding all the cards. What would be the veterinarian's motivation to alter such a scenario. Read some of the above responses, the farrier is in this day and age not even certain as to whether or not he can apply a shoe to a hoof legally, or not even sure anymore what is his job since many of the freedoms of yesteryear are being consumed under an umbrella and redefined as the practice of veterinary medicine. I think this annoys many farriers and angers some as well. In the practical field of reality and out of the halls of the state legislature, there exist grey areas. There exists differences of opinion. The expert between the two professions often depends on who is representing each. This leads to confusion with the owner in the middle. There needs to be some changes made in order to really move forward with the idea of cooperation, and I wonder what is the veterinary profession willing to offer up? I don't think the farriers have anything left to give, so to me I would like to hear Dr Myers thoughts. What positive changes would you like to see? For one, I would like to commend you for participating on this site. Is there a veterinarian site somewhere on the net where vets have discussions and try to help and learn from eachother? Maybe there is, but I would bet that you would have to be a vet to get access to that sort of forum, or pay a consultation fee. No farriers allowed right.
Rick Talbert
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