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TOPIC: Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish?

RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 01:22 #46

  • Travis Reed
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Peters....that very thing you just talked about ..600 for clogs..the follow up anther chunk of change...is just what will happen when you got vets like myers running around trying to skim off the butter..and the owner will pay it...and you will see it until the horse is done and all the money is milked that can be....that vet did not offer the horse nothing you could have done the same for half the price..and truthfully u prob would have done a neater job...as I said before I love working with vets and I must be one of the lucky places..because its usally a BS deal then go eat lunch and they usally say just give me a call and let me know what u came up with...of course they may say raise the heel or throw out a few things but they don't stand over ya and point
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 11:02 #47

  • tbloomer
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
We agree on a lot of stuff that doesn't involve government.
Sooner or later we are going to have to do something about "too much government." Generally this situation calls for some kind of offensive action.

I'm tired of this namby pamby "can't we just all get along, hold hands, and sing Kum by ya" tripe that has been circulated in our industry. I'm tired of the lip service about "mutual respect."

The evidence is clear. The veterinary citadel is deliberately calculating ways to expand their authority over every aspect of animal health and husbandry. There is a long term strategy in play. It involves legislation at the local and national level. The changes in horse slaughter laws, equine dentistry, complimentary and alternative treatments, and the current situation where the AVMA has requested public comment on their model veterinary practice act are all part of this strategy.

The legal technicality that overturned the Texas decision about equine dentistry is the reason the AVMA is asking for public comment. The Texas decision was based on the veterinary board not informing the public of their proposed changes in the rules. They have learned from their mistakes. NOW THEY ARE REVEALING THEIR PLAN TO THE PUBLIC.

The AVMA doesn't give a damn about your input. They are simply covering their legal a s s. Any new changes in veterinary practice laws will NOT be overturned by the technicality used in Texas. THAT DOOR HAS BEEN SHUT.

If you're one of those folks who that going along with this charade and cooperating is somehow going to make a difference, then I suggest you go buy a case of condoms.

BOHICA!
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 12:40 #48

  • Mike Ferrara
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tbloomer wrote:
Sooner or later we are going to have to do something about "too much government." Generally this situation calls for some kind of offensive action.

I'm tired of this namby pamby "can't we just all get along, hold hands, and sing Kum by ya" tripe that has been circulated in our industry. I'm tired of the lip service about "mutual respect."

The evidence is clear. The veterinary citadel is deliberately calculating ways to expand their authority over every aspect of animal health and husbandry. There is a long term strategy in play. It involves legislation at the local and national level. The changes in horse slaughter laws, equine dentistry, complimentary and alternative treatments, and the current situation where the AVMA has requested public comment on their model veterinary practice act are all part of this strategy.

The legal technicality that overturned the Texas decision about equine dentistry is the reason the AVMA is asking for public comment. The Texas decision was based on the veterinary board not informing the public of their proposed changes in the rules. They have learned from their mistakes. NOW THEY ARE REVEALING THEIR PLAN TO THE PUBLIC.

The AVMA doesn't give a damn about your input. They are simply covering their legal a s s. Any new changes in veterinary practice laws will NOT be overturned by the technicality used in Texas. THAT DOOR HAS BEEN SHUT.

If you're one of those folks who that going along with this charade and cooperating is somehow going to make a difference, then I suggest you go buy a case of condoms.

BOHICA!

I agree Tom.

We farriers have something of an ace in the hole if we can get farriers to use it. That is that no matter what kind of games the vets and legislators play it's we farriers and ONLY we farriers who can get our clients barrel horses or high stepping show horses to their events and through their work.

If they want to screw with us, vets are going to have to get bigger trucks and start shoeing a lot of horses and horse owners and breed associations are going to scream to high heaven. You're right, there's no reason for us to play ball with these people and help them screw up a great trade.

I watched the video that George linked on the other thread. The farrier who spoke in the beginning (Jim House?) was exactly right. We "diagnose" all the time. A client says the horse is having a problem, we watch them move, poke around with a hoof tester, see the horse is foot sore, put a shoe on and away they go fit as a fiddle. We just diagnosed and administered treatment. The vet could have handled the diagnosis but they couldn't have done a damned thing to fix it. I wonder if folks will stand for calling a vet to diagnose and treat every little case of thrush or every interference problem.

Let the vet put the shoe on if he really thinks he's up for it but, otherwise, people are going to scream about having to pay both of us to be there. This isn't like dentistry where a horse might get his teeth worked on once or twice/year (if that). We do this every six weeks or so.

We don't need any new organizations, job titles, certifications or licenses. Speaking for myself, I'm going to keep shoeing horses like I always have until somebody tells me I can't.

When the vet starts doing it, I'm going to pull up a chair and watch because it should be a lot of fun.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 13:45 #49

Mike,
After reading your last post my initial response was "Yeah, that's right!! Yeah".

After rereading it, I thought to respond to your points one at a time. But I don't want to start a ****ing contest, so instead just let me respond that if the AVMA succeeds in gaining control over farriery, your scenario plays out, there will be a fewer horseowners, and a lot fewer farriers.

I have never been a proponent of licensing, because I worry about who would set the criteria. But it is starting to become clear who is willing to take on that roll - the AVMA. I'm hoping there will be enough outrage/outcry from this scenario that it will result in something proactive being done by the farrier community.. I'm not really sure who that is, are you?

Gotta go to work now, but I am looking forward to y'all's thoughts.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 14:06 #50

  • Mike Ferrara
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Western Hill Forge wrote:
Mike,
After reading your last post my initial response was "Yeah, that's right!! Yeah".

After rereading it, I thought to respond to your points one at a time. But I don't want to start a ****ing contest, so instead just let me respond that if the AVMA succeeds in gaining control over farriery, your scenario plays out, there will be a fewer horseowners, and a lot fewer farriers.

I have never been a proponent of licensing, because I worry about who would set the criteria. But it is starting to become clear who is willing to take on that roll - the AVMA. I'm hoping there will be enough outrage/outcry from this scenario that it will result in something proactive being done by the farrier community.. I'm not really sure who that is, are you?

Gotta go to work now, but I am looking forward to y'all's thoughts.

Regards

No, I'm not sure who that is either. I'm not convinced there is any problem here that needs to be solved. Legislators and the AMVA may create some problems but I'd prefer to let them own them and get stuck having to fix them.

Really, just back up and describe the "problem". I don't see one. Most days I go shoe my horses, clients are happy, I get paid and all is well. Once in a while (often at my urging), a vet is involved. The vet does the vet work and I do the farrier work and everything is still good.

As I see it, the only problem here is that some people are looking for more power, probably, for the purpose of getting a cut of somebody else's action. It's not like we haven't seen that before.

I was going to go to work today but it's -16 F here and I'm not even going to start the truck. We'll call it a shop day.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 16:05 #51

Mike Ferrara wrote:
No, I'm not sure who that is either. I'm not convinced there is any problem here that needs to be solved. Legislators and the AMVA may create some problems but I'd prefer to let them own them and get stuck having to fix them.

Really, just back up and describe the "problem". I don't see one. Most days I go shoe my horses, clients are happy, I get paid and all is well. Once in a while (often at my urging), a vet is involved. The vet does the vet work and I do the farrier work and everything is still good.

As I see it, the only problem here is that some people are looking for more power, probably, for the purpose of getting a cut of somebody else's action. It's not like we haven't seen that before.

I was going to go to work today but it's -16 F here and I'm not even going to start the truck. We'll call it a shop day.

Mike,
That is one problem.

There is another, and that is substandard work, and overhyped claims by the BUA and gimmick types who actually do a lot of harm, both to horses and business.

Regulation would probably not prevent substandard work, but as things are now, anyone can buy a rasp and go to work. Most of them are weeded out, but it can take years, in which time other charlatans come along to replace them.

Both groups, the AVMA and the BUA sheep are driven by power (read money ), as is the farrier community, all under the guise of "doing what's best for the horse". I would like hoofcare to fall under the realm of farriers (shoers) exclusively. That would limit the power grab by the AVMA, but, again, someone would have to decide what constitutes being a "farrier". If we could answer that question, the "problems" would go away.

It was -15 here this AM also, but I only had one horse to do at 9:00, then off till 2 when I have 5 more, all in run-ins. Hope it warms up by then.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 16:14 #52

  • Mark_Gough
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What defines and delineates the responsibilities of the vet and farrier in the UK? I thought the answer might be interesting in the context of this discussion so did a quick lookup. The answer is, in fact, interesting.

From the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons in London.

Section 2F. Treatment of animals by non-veterinary surgeons

(note: apparently all vets in England are defined as "surgeons")

From part 1 of that section:

'Veterinary surgery' is defined within the Act as encompassing the 'art and science of veterinary surgery and medicine' which includes the diagnosis of diseases and injuries in animals, tests performed on animals for diagnostic purposes, advice based upon a diagnosis and surgical operations which may not necessarily form part of a treatment. These restrictions are in the interests of ensuring that animals are treated only by people qualified to do so.


Okay... so that's how they define the vet's responsibilities. Are there exceptions? Yep... defined in Part 2 of Section 2F.

A veterinary surgeon must be aware of the exceptions which allow non-veterinary surgeons to treat animals, in particular:

Veterinary students
Veterinary nurses
Farriers
Physiotherapists, osteopaths and chiropractors
Other complementary therapists
Faith healing
Animal behaviourism
Pathology



"Faith Healing"? Okay... that's interesting, but more importantly, they specifically exempt farriers. Let's see how.

Parts 11 through 14 define the responsibilities and roles of the farrier/veterinarian relationship. To wit...

11. Both veterinary surgeons and farriers are involved in the treatment of horses' feet. While veterinary surgeons are exempt from the restrictions in the Farriers Registration Acts 1975 and 1977, farriers are not exempt from the restrictions in the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966, and may not carry out procedures deemed to be acts of veterinary surgery.


This is particularly interesting. In short, vets don't have to play by the rules, but farriers do. Leaves little doubt as to who is in charge and has final say.

12. There is no clear demarcation line between veterinary surgeons and farriers in the exercise of their professional responsibilities, so that much depends on individuals and the relationship between them. Decisions as to whether a particular procedure should be performed by one or the other is a matter for consultation and co-operation. Veterinary surgeons should make every effort personally to discuss cases with farriers.


So they had trouble defining the specific responsibilities too. No surprise there. Good to see they at least acknowledge the value of and encourage vets to discuss cases with farriers. My concern would be that without specific definitions of responsibilities, the farrier is always at risk of "crossing the line".

13. Farriery consists of trimming and balancing the equine hoof prior to and the fitting of conventional or surgical shoes, and where a veterinary surgeon requires particular work from a farrier this should be specified in personal contact between them.


This appears to limit farriers to trimming and balancing the equine hoof. The "fitting of conventional or surgical shoes" occurs after the word "prior". This could be understood to mean that the farrier should do nothing beyond a trim without some kind of contact with a vet. Not particularly illuminating, is it?

14. A farrier must not normally penetrate sensitive structures, cause unnatural stress to the animal, make a diagnosis or administer drugs. If he feels that either the veterinary surgeon is treating the animal incorrectly, or that a further condition is present requiring treatment, he should notify the veterinary surgeon or advise the owner to call in the veterinary surgeon. If a veterinary surgeon considers that a farrier's work is inadequate he should contact the farrier directly. Neither should make detrimental comments about the work of the other unless in the course of a formal complaint to their regulatory bodies, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons or the Farriers Registration Council.

So... no treating abscesses and don't nick the sensitive laminae during a resection. Diagnosis is off-limits. Does that mean the farrier cannot suggest possible causes and curatives for gait abnormalities? Lameness?

Guess it's good that non-official "detrimental comments" are off limits but interesting they felt compelled to specify "farrier's work is inadequate" with no mention of the potential for "vet's work is inadequate" (diagnosis?).

Faith healers are in a bind. They can't do their job ("laying on of hands" :eek:) unless the vet first attends the animal and gives the go ahead.

Homeopathy is restricted to qualified vets only! No tea tree oil cures for navicular by trimmers in the United Kingdom! :rolleyes:

My take on this is that farriers in the United Kingdom basically work at the whim and leisure of the veterinary surgeons. Farriers have their own rules as defined by the farriers registration act to regulate themselves, but vets are exempt from such rules and have the first and final say in anything equine beyond a trim.

Now you know...

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 16:54 #53

Mark_Gough wrote:

From the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons in London.



A veterinary surgeon must be aware of the exceptions which allow non-veterinary surgeons to treat animals, in particular:

Veterinary students
Veterinary nurses
Farriers
Physiotherapists, osteopaths and chiropractors
Other complementary therapists
Faith healing
Animal behaviourism
Pathology





13. Farriery consists of trimming and balancing the equine hoof prior to and the fitting of conventional or surgical shoes, and where a veterinary surgeon requires particular work from a farrier this should be specified in personal contact between them.

Mark

Interesting stuff Mark. Thanks for looking it up and posting.

At least they note which disciplines are exempt from the veterinary act:
Veterinary students
Veterinary nurses
Farriers
Physiotherapists, osteopaths and chiropractors
Other complementary therapists
Faith healing
Animal behaviourism
Pathology

So they can still practice their profession. Interesting that they left out equine dentistry.

In section 13, did you overlook the "and" the fitting ...? My interpretation of this is that the word "fitting" is synonymous with applying, and is included, by virtue of the use of the phrase "prior to and".

In any regards, it appears that they are a ways ahead of us, at least in the area of definition and demarcation or responsibilities.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 17:02 #54

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Mark_Gough wrote:
So... don't nick the sensitive laminae during a resection.

A lot of people on these boards seem very worried about resections. Why would a farrier want to take off the hoof capsule without a veterinarian involved?
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 17:38 #55

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How about treating a quarter crack? Should a farrier be responsible for this, or should the veterinarian?
P
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 17:44 #56

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reillyshoe wrote:
How about treating a quarter crack? Should a farrier be responsible for this, or should the veterinarian?

Personally, I think farriers need to get this idea out of there head that anytime they see something wrong in the hoof capsule it needs to be removed. That includes quarter cracks.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 18:31 #57

  • Mike Ferrara
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Western Hill Forge wrote:
Mike,
That is one problem.

There is another, and that is substandard work, and overhyped claims by the BUA and gimmick types who actually do a lot of harm, both to horses and business.

Regulation would probably not prevent substandard work, but as things are now, anyone can buy a rasp and go to work. Most of them are weeded out, but it can take years, in which time other charlatans come along to replace them.

Both groups, the AVMA and the BUA sheep are driven by power (read money ), as is the farrier community, all under the guise of "doing what's best for the horse". I would like hoofcare to fall under the realm of farriers (shoers) exclusively. That would limit the power grab by the AVMA, but, again, someone would have to decide what constitutes being a "farrier". If we could answer that question, the "problems" would go away.

It was -15 here this AM also, but I only had one horse to do at 9:00, then off till 2 when I have 5 more, all in run-ins. Hope it warms up by then.

Regards

Could you define "substandard work" for me? What standard? If you ask me, I set the standard for the hoof care that my horse gets.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 18:37 #58

  • Mike Ferrara
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reillyshoe wrote:
How about treating a quarter crack? Should a farrier be responsible for this, or should the veterinarian?

Maybe we should ask the OWNER? LOL, I say let the vet fix it so I can shoe the horse without having to worry about it...and yes I do realize how ridiculous that sounds.

The answer is to have the government work on patching the potholes in the road (something they aren't very good at yet) and stay out of the way otherwise and have the vets come when they're called and mind their own business otherwise.

This whole topic is nothing but a bunch of nonsense.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 20:39 #59

Mike Ferrara wrote:
Maybe we should ask the OWNER? LOL, I say let the vet fix it so I can shoe the horse without having to worry about it...and yes I do realize how ridiculous that sounds.

The answer is to have the government work on patching the potholes in the road (something they aren't very good at yet) and stay out of the way otherwise and have the vets come when they're called and mind their own business otherwise.

This whole topic is nothing but a bunch of nonsense.

It is about animal ownership. The owner writes the check. When horse owners learn about what this could mean to their animal care costs, it will likely bring loud objections.
Julie Plaster
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 10 Feb 2011 21:07 #60

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reillyshoe wrote:
How about treating a quarter crack? Should a farrier be responsible for this, or should the veterinarian?

Which part of the quarter crack to you feel the vet might be responsible for, the trim or shoe application?
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