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TOPIC: Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish?

RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 13 Feb 2011 14:34 #106

  • Mark_Gough
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tbloomer wrote:
... It would cost more than $1000 of taxpayer money to collect a $1000 fine...

Not to be argumentative but... that something costs more than it is worth has never, to my knowledge, been a serious consideration in government decision making.

Just saying... ;)

I was curious what the "other side" thought of topics regarding farriers, licensing, certification, general practice, etc., so invested some time reviewing various veterinary forums.

I couldn't find a single topic specific reference when using their search engines to find occurrences of the word "farrier" or "horseshoeing".

Left me with the impression that vets don't talk about these topics nearly as much as farriers do. In fact, they don't seem to talk about farriers at all with the few exceptions of the notable veterinarians that specialize in equine lameness. (Dr. Redden, Dr. O'Grady, etc).

Expecting to find at least some reference to farriery, I found the lack of such topic material to be more than interesting.

Also noticed that there appear to be no public veterinary forums with anywhere near the content volume, quality or participation that farriers enjoy here on the F&HRC forums. Baron has 'em all beat.

Perhaps someone else will have more luck finding topic relevant veterinary content.

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 13 Feb 2011 15:07 #107

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Mark_Gough wrote:

Expecting to find at least some reference to farriery, I found the lack of such topic material to be more than interesting.

Cheers,
Mark

Mark - Why do you find that so interesting?
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 13 Feb 2011 15:21 #108

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Mark_Gough wrote:
Not to be argumentative but... that something costs more than it is worth has never, to my knowledge, been a serious consideration in government decision making.
It depends on how the voters would perceive the expenditure. Most A.G.s would prefer "politically" to be considered tough on crime. Yet I know of several cases in my state where vets attempted to prosecute laypeople for practicing medicine and were laughed out of court by a judge. Specifically for gelding young stallions.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 13 Feb 2011 15:32 #109

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Mark_Gough wrote:

Also noticed that there appear to be no public veterinary forums with anywhere near the content volume, quality or participation that farriers enjoy here on the F&HRC forums. Baron has 'em all beat.

Perhaps someone else will have more luck finding topic relevant veterinary content.

Cheers,
Mark

When is the last time a farrier had to make a decision to put a horse down? Perform a PPE and the horse gets lame shortly after? Put needles into joints? Get a call at 3am that they had to go deal with a sick horse? Had a horse die in there care? Not be able to go to the family for holiday because of being on call? So on and so on..........

Though I don't think most vets know much about farriery I at least acknowledge their daily routine is much more intense than a farriers. I wouldn't expect a vet to get home from work and go on forums talking about their cases.

From what I know, if a vet has a question about farriery they call a farrier. They don't go asking other vets on a forum about farriery.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 13 Feb 2011 15:36 #110

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Oh there are forums for veterinarians. The AAEP has one, there are others as well. I think they are, for for the most part, private.
P
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 13 Feb 2011 17:17 #111

  • Rick Talbert
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Eric Russell wrote:
I can answer some of these questions from my personal experience, to show that especially in rural parts of the country, where one must drive a ways to find a decent equine vet, the gray areas we talk about are much more gray. The farrier is often the authority to many owners on all horse related problems and questions. Especially when we have mixed practice vets with questionable reputations. The owner also sees the farrier much more often than the vet, and builds a confidence in the farrier's knowledge that they may not have in their veterinary options.
When is the last time a farrier had to make a decision to put a horse down?
I think the farriers opinion often dominates the owner's choice. I get asked often by owners, whether they should put a horse down. I think the opinion of the owner is often dependent on the professional opinion of whichever person they have the most faith in (in many situations). When to throw the towel in, is often when I tell them its time.
Perform a PPE and the horse gets lame shortly after?
We are often asked to do a PPE in relation to soundness and hoof quality, I have evaluated many horses for owners prior to purchase. A poor man's PPE, lol.
Put needles into joints?[
no we do not put needles in joints, at least most of us don't, (but I do know some that do.)
Get a call at 3am that they had to go deal with a sick horse?
I have this sort of thing happen regularly, I have had 1AM calls, horse colic, lacerations, hurt leg, they very often call the farrier. Why, because many of our local vets have business hours, and when they are closed some just leave the name of a vet an hour and a half away to contact for emergencies (some of the mixed practice vets leave only the number for a small animal emergency hospital 2 hours away), often even if they contact an equine vet who is 1.5- 2 hours away, the vet either will not see them because they do not have an existing relationship, or would require the owner to bring the horse to their facility, if the owner cannot afford for this vet to drive down (if they could talk them into it) for an emergency at night or they dont have a horse trailer, they call the farrier to see if he can help. Some local vets don't return the owner's frantic messages in time to suit the owner, so the owner calls the farrier to find out what to do. The owners call the farrier often in the middle of the night to say "Dr so and so won't call me back, do you think you could get ahold of him for me or do you have another number, or who else would you recommend, or do you think you could come out here and handle this for me, or what should I be doing for the horse while I wait?" "Well have you tried Dr x?" "Yes no answer and no voice mail" "What about Dr Y, down in such and such town?" "I left a message on his emergency number 3 times and haven't heard back, but I don't think he comes this far." (so on and so on)
Had a horse die in there care?
Not often granted, but I have tried to help owners when a horse was in the process of dying and the owner had exhausted all efforts to get a vet out with no response.
Not be able to go to the family for holiday because of being on call?
OH My, a vacation is a pipe dream. As is a weekend. So far this year I have had 1 day off and thats on par, with my average of 7-14 days off per year. However, many of the vets I know and work with not only take weekends off and close the office at 5pm, but have already taken vacations this year.
So on and so on..........
exactly..
Though I don't think most vets know much about farriery I at least acknowledge their daily routine is much more intense than a farriers.
I couldn't disagree more with the intensity of the days comment. In this economy especially, I know very good vets that are twittling their thumbs all day or having a coggins at 1pm and 2 vaccinations at 3, for their entire day. Some days more, and some days nothing. I cover a pretty large area, of my state, and I travel a ways a few days a week to work in an area where quality equine veterinary care is available, unlike what the situation is close to my house or further south, but still these good vets are still mighty slow business wise and have been for a few months now. Yet the farriers are still hard at it all day every day, most of the time till dark. Maybe the situation is different in your part of the country.
I wouldn't expect a vet to get home from work and go on forums talking about their cases.
no I wouldn't either, and that is too bad. But are you saying you wouldn't expect them to come home and spend time trying to educate themselves because their days are just soo intense and difficult? The good ones are always trying to educate themselves. Even during the day when they have nothing to do but sit in the office they are very often looking up and reading stuff on-line. I think it is a shame however that more are not involved in this sort of exchange of knowledge as we have here on this site. They may, have similar private access sites, so the general public cannot view their insecurities. Maybe there is some merit to that, but it reminds me of the days where farriers would not share any information.
From what I know, if a vet has a question about farriery they call a farrier. They don't go asking other vets on a forum about farriery
probably true with some, but definitely not all.
Rick Talbert
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 13 Feb 2011 18:12 #112

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Rick Talbert wrote:
Eric Russell;227251 wrote:
I can answer some of these questions from my personal experience, to show that especially in rural parts of the country,

The farrier is often the authority to many owners on all horse related problems and questions.

The owner also sees the farrier much more often than the vet, and builds a confidence in the farrier's knowledge that they may not have in their veterinary options.

Things are obviously different in rural areas. The Farrier should not be the authority on anything other than farriery. The farriers knowledge should be in farriery. If you as an individual venture into veterinary issues, I don't see that as being part of farriery.
I think the farriers opinion often dominates the owner's choice. I get asked often by owners, whether they should put a horse down.

Again, that has nothing to do with farriery.
I think the opinion of the owner is often dependent on the professional opinion of whichever person they have the most faith in (in many situations).

Outside of farriery, how is your opinion professional?
We are often asked to do a PPE in relation to soundness and hoof quality, I have evaluated many horses for owners prior to purchase.

I don't see why a farrier would be doing a PPE.
no we do not put needles in joints

It was an example. We trim feet and apply shoes. At most horses will be lame for a while. Vets on the other hand can do things which will cause permanent injury or death.
I have this sort of thing happen regularly, I have had 1AM calls, horse colic, lacerations, hurt leg, they very often call the farrier.

Again, this isn't about farriery and is more of a rural issue.
OH My, a vacation is a pipe dream. As is a weekend. So far this year I have had 1 day off and thats on par, with my average of 7-14 days off per year.

You not getting a day off is your issue.

exactly.. I couldn't disagree more with the intensity of the days comment.

By intensity I meant on the mind. A farriers job really shouldn't be very stressful. Where as the duties of a vet can be stressful.
But are you saying you wouldn't expect them to come home and spend time trying to educate themselves because their days are just soo intense and difficult?

Nope, I'm saying vets have gone to school, internships, CE.... Farriers don't have to do any of this. I know they go to private forums.
I think it is a shame however that more are not involved in this sort of exchange of knowledge as we have here on this site. They may, have similar private access sites, so the general public cannot view their insecurities. Maybe there is some merit to that, but it reminds me of the days where farriers would not share any information.

I see it as being more professional.

I understand in rural areas everybody seems to be a jack of all trades out of necessity. What you do outside of farriery is non of my business. But I would hope you can differentiate when you're performing farriery and when you're performing ________ (whatever it is you want to call it).
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 15 Feb 2011 00:06 #113

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reillyshoe wrote:
There is no exemption for horseshoeing in many states. Even in states where there is an exemption, routine acts of corrective applications (bar shoes or pads) can be interpreted as the practice of veterinary medicine.

The point I have been trying to make over the years is that the status quo is not a good option. Twenty years ago, I do not think equine dentists figured to be in their current legal situation, and I bet they wish they could go back and change their course of action.

I think you may be right on this point, Pat. Veterinary schools are beginning to pay more attention to equine dentistry and will likely be turning out more veterinarians who will consider plying this trade. Not sure how all of this will play out over time, so everyone stay tuned in and we'll see what develops.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 15 Feb 2011 00:21 #114

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British Matt wrote:
Anyone can float teeth here, but I think there are restrictions on removing teeth and administering sedatives

North Carolina went nuts on the equine dental technicians and they are banned from practice in that state. Only licensed veterinarians (and North Carolina is very touchy about the veterinarian having a North Carolina license) can float teeth in that state.

One problem with licensing is it restricts where a veterinarian can practice. I am licensed in Virginia, North Carolina and Louisiana. I have held temporary licensure in Ottowa, Ontario, Canada when I work up there, but that is getting harder to do of late.

Licensing farriers could have these same ramifications so it is a definite downside to licensure.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 15 Feb 2011 02:31 #115

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Rick I see what ur talking about. In..{rural}..area...but I tend to think its more of a money issue than thinking as the farrier the one in the know...and you know as well as I do if you do not lend what you may have learned over the years the horse will not get any treatment.......allthough I try hard not to cross the line I'm sure I have ..not often but I have gave my opinion and felt after I should have not............................................................. and In my area I don't know of anyone but a vet doing teeth
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 15 Feb 2011 04:01 #116

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Travis Reed wrote:
Rick I see what ur talking about. In..{rural}..area...but I tend to think its more of a money issue than thinking as the farrier the one in the know...and you know as well as I do if you do not lend what you may have learned over the years the horse will not get any treatment.......allthough I try hard not to cross the line I'm sure I have ..not often but I have gave my opinion and felt after I should have not............................................................. and In my area I don't know of anyone but a vet doing teeth

Certainly it is a money issue with some Travis. Some low end owners can not afford to take a horse to the vet, or are unsure of whether a problem warrants a trip to the vet and 2 weeks pay, I can't blame them. But, and I know you would agree, that a fellow cannot spend nearly his entire life working with horses and not help but know a little something about them. Now if this fellow was charging a fee for his opinion, or presenting himself as an expert or professional in some area other than what relates to farriery then we have another issue, but I don't think anyone should be afraid to voice an opinion when asked. Many of us develop a good relationship with clients that sometimes transfers into what may be considered friendship. If I am asked a question and feel pretty sure I know the answer, then I am going to answer it, if I don't know I will tell them where they can go or who they can ask to find out. But I also am not a know it all, there are many aspects of a horse which I know little of, for instance, I do not have much really to say about nutrition or reproductive questions. I think there is nothing wrong with a farrier being a student of the horse. I don't think a farrier should think, "I am only going to read the chapters in the book that pertain to nailing a shoe on." We are tending to get the idea that we need to walk around on pins and needles and only open our mouths when asked about the horse's hoof. But if the farrier won't tell the owner that the horse has a bowed tendon, the know nothing neighbor has no problem telling them that its only a wind puff. The welfare of the horse should come first and foremost. I tell owners nearly every day that they need to get an appointment with the vet, to have whatever looked at, so I am in no way against vets. I try to get people in the door of the vets that I work with to help them as much as I can. But I see no need to think that I do not have the freedom of speech and expression that any other horseman has, just because I get paid to shoe horses. As to who they consider to be the one "in the know", I do think this is often the case. So we may disagree a little on that. But think, the owner sees the farrier maybe 10 times a year and for hours at a time. To the owner it often seems that the farrier knows everything about a horse, just from the amount of questions we get thrown at us and our answers. Every farrier getting started should take note when he does not know the answer to a question, because he will get the same question over and over again. If someone asks something you don't know anything about, take it upon yourself to immediately that evenning begin researching and learning more about it so that when the subject arises in the future you will be better educated and capable of informing the owner properly. Do this over and over and over. Eventually, there are few questions that you do not have an immediate, thought out, and well put answer for. I do not try to be a vet, but I have explained to many owners what the vet diagnosed their horse with and have done so in a way that all of a sudden now the horse owner understands. That was just a lack of effective communication between vet and owner, clarified by the farrier. I have owners ask me the second the vet is out of sight, whether or not what they said was correct or not. Because the vet has not earned the same trust that is accumulated over those hours of talking, and educating, and conversing about horses and politics and everything under the sun appointment after appointment, year after year. It is nothing against the vet. I have many personal experiences that I find comical to illustrate this point, but I don't want to make it too personal.
Rick Talbert
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 15 Feb 2011 04:29 #117

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mwmyersdvm wrote:
I think you may be right on this point, Pat. Veterinary schools are beginning to pay more attention to equine dentistry and will likely be turning out more veterinarians who will consider plying this trade. Not sure how all of this will play out over time, so everyone stay tuned in and we'll see what develops.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

Its great that the vet schools are increasing the attention to dentistry, some for the first time in a long time. But it is wrong that the some state veterinary associations are attempting to push out the equine dentists. A simple routine float is not complicated or invasive. The horse's welfare is in no more jeopardy than it is when a farrier trims its hooves. The equine dentist, especially the ones who have been to school, have more experience and more education in this specialty than the vet in most cases. Its great that the veterinary schools are teaching more about dentistry now that power tools are widely used and it has become less physically dificult :rolleyes:, but I wonder what the total number of floats or classroom hours a graduate has under his belt compared with someone who has been to dentistry school. If you watch the vetspan video concerning this issue (amongst others) the veterinarian who spoke the longest against equine dentistry becoming legal in Arkansas (when asked) said that he would only charge 25-35 dollars for a float. Now tell me he is doing quality work for that price???
Rick Talbert
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 15 Feb 2011 13:43 #118

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Rick Talbert wrote:
. . .If you watch the vetspan video concerning this issue (amongst others) the veterinarian who spoke the longest against equine dentistry becoming legal in Arkansas (when asked) said that he would only charge 25-35 dollars for a float. Now tell me he is doing quality work for that price???
Rick, Bentonville, AR is the location of Wal-Mart corporate headquarters. Always low prices--Always!
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 17 Feb 2011 04:16 #119

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Rick Talbert wrote:
If you watch the vetspan video concerning this issue (amongst others) the veterinarian who spoke the longest against equine dentistry becoming legal in Arkansas (when asked) said that he would only charge 25-35 dollars for a float. Now tell me he is doing quality work for that price???
He probably heard that the Equine Dentistry school just outside of Weatherford, Texas is charging $35 per horse.
RJ Little
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"I ain't askin' nobody for nuthin', if I can't get it on my own." - Charlie Daniels
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 17 Feb 2011 04:25 #120

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westtxshoer wrote:
He probably heard that the Equine Dentistry school just outside of Weatherford, Texas is charging $35 per horse.

actually, its funny. if you watch the video (and its a long one) but when this old vet gets done a guy asks him how much do you charge for floating a horse's teeth. And you can see his mind racing, lol, the fellow probably hasn't done any teeth in years, and he fumbles for a minute and then says "well if its just a simple float without any extractions or anything, you mean just float the teeth? well i reckon i wouldn't charge more than 25-35 dollars for that." And this is the vet representing the argument that equine dentists should not be allowed to practice in the state. I almost shot coke outa my nose. (the liquid not the powder)
Rick Talbert
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