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TOPIC: Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish?

Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 05 Feb 2011 23:10 #1

  • mwmyersdvm
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Hopefully this thread will spark some cooperative debate on how we can collectively formulate some type of organization or system by which veterinarians and farriers can work smoothly together to assist the horse to be the best he can be. I would propose that no profession is left out as chirpracters, acupuncturists, nutritionists, and many more can be considered in the future. Let's first get the top two groups in agreement and then slowly 'fold in' the other assisting professional into the total recipe.

Do I have any start up commentary? Let's try to work forward, forgive transgressions using them as 'things not to do' and create something we can utilize to everyone's benefit.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 05 Feb 2011 23:48 #2

  • reillyshoe
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There are groups such as the NEAEP who take veterinarians and farriers as members. Unfortunately, that particular group's by laws stipulate that the BoD should be comprised of approximately 75% veterinarians. This type of group is not acceptable to me based upon the preferential status afforded to veterinarians.

I am open to ideas if you want to get the ball rolling.
P
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 06 Feb 2011 01:00 #3

  • westtxshoer
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I am not really going to add much to the discussion but, I have tried this on a smaller scale. I tried to form an equine services association in West Texas last year and received very little response or interest. I am thinking of pushing it again, but I did not receive any response from vets last time. Only some farriers, chiropractors, massage therapists, and an equine dentist.
RJ Little
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"I ain't askin' nobody for nuthin', if I can't get it on my own." - Charlie Daniels
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 06 Feb 2011 12:38 #4

  • tbloomer
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mwmyersdvm wrote:
Do I have any start up commentary?
I know a lot of people find it offensive, but I'm sort of fond of the constitution and bill of rights.

How about limiting scope of "privileged" lawful authority of veterinarians to protecting the human food supply - zoonosis?

Take away their artificial "rank and privilege" and make them "ordinary citizens" who must earn their respect in the free market.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 06 Feb 2011 14:15 #5

  • mwmyersdvm
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tbloomer wrote:
Take away their artificial "rank and privilege" and make them "ordinary citizens" who must earn their respect in the free market.

Frankly, Tom, I quite agree plus we wouldn't be subject to frivolous lawsuits when our veterinary trucks accidentally rear end someone who walks away with no injuries and few medical bills and decides to pull the "litle old lady MacDonald's manuever" and sue for big bucks.

Perception is a big problem. MD's get away with more mistakes and lax attitudes than veterinarians do just because of their 'perceived standing' in the community.

But, that philosophy notwithstanding, I know you are a really smart guy and I really would like to enlist some gradient procedures that will move the general populace (throwing the veterinarians in that 'general' group) towards acceptance of this idea. Currently the constitution is taking quite a beating in Congress so we can't rely on that document to assist us in all cases. If you think you get frustrated, imagine me having to consult with owners looking for second opinions while their horses are receiving Tildren and shock wave therapy and no one has really even looked at the hooves which are the obvious source of the dilemma. And now, they don't have any funds left to pay me to begin to assist their horse. I do agree the "God complex" needs revision.

Give me a hand here, I know you can. Perhaps I am looking to enforce hoof education into the equine veterinary profession. I'm for at least making them pass a written exam that would make them consider looking at a hoof before they inject a back.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 06 Feb 2011 14:46 #6

  • smitty88
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most vets i know cant take a shoe off with out wrecking the foot
and when some of them go seaching for a drop

you know what im talking about disaster
Smitty88
John Mc Loughlin
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 06 Feb 2011 15:11 #7

  • Dave Whitaker
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While returning from the IHCS in Cincinnati Friday, as luck would have it, the young man in the seat next to me on the flight out to Charlotte was a 23 year old in his fifth year of his farrier career returning back to California as I was headed for Maine. Though we had three decades of age and a continent separating us, he asked me, "how did you like the Summit?", and we went from there. It was his first trip to Cincy, and one of his first comments was that he couldn't believe how "accessible" the people that he considered to be at the top of the industry were to him.

It got me thinking that he was right. Especially outside of the formal structure of the Summit, like while sitting at the bar without name tags and labels, I could have a conversation about the industry with a complete stranger for hours and not be aware of whether I was talking with a farrier, vet, product supplier, etc., unless you asked. It was just good, in depth, discussions about how to better do what we should be doing........ learning how to improve our knowledge and skills in order to better serve our real clients....the horses. The horse could care less who we are, what we have done in the past, or the labels attached to our names..... if he walks off more comfortable than he arrived, all is right in his world. I think at times our egos and labels get in the way of this at the expense of our equine clients.

This young farrier and I were decades apart in age and experience, and though he was eager to "pick my brain" as he put it, I found that I was very curious about what he was doing in California, his drive to be a farrier, and how he handled different situations. I learned....... I learned from this young man and filed those nuggets into the foggy shelves of my 'ol brain, where I know I'm going to pull one out by and by and use it to do some good. I'll smile and remember "some kid" taught me this.

I have been very fortunate to develop tremendous working relationships with the vets that I regularly consult with and was pleased to see him ask me how to approach the vets in his areas and get that type of cooperation going.

I commended him for having the drive to attend the IHCS, (always sad to see the poor Maine attendance, I think there were three of us), and encouraged him to stay the course. But I could tell he had the fire in his belly and he will be a huge asset to future equine care in his area.

So, to the OP's question, "can we accomplish" this? I would like to think we can. I have been able to reach that kind of cooperation within my own little slice of the pie where I practice, and I thoroughly enjoy it. But we have to be careful that we don't cut our noses off to spite our faces. Pat's comment about the NEAEP, though valid, misses the point that this organization has at least on the surface made an attempt to bring the two professions together. Now, I was not privy to the internal workings that Pat was as a member of the board, but I would like to think working on changing the by laws to reflect greater "equality" would be more in line with achieving the long term goal than just bailing and condemning the organization forever. I walked away from both conferences a better farrier than when I walked in, and THAT is going to improve farriery whether I'm singing "c_u_m by ya" with the vets, organizations, etc., or not.

JMHO,respectfully, Dave


"Everything is for sale......some are just harder to buy than others......"
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 06 Feb 2011 15:19 #8

  • Mark_Gough
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tbloomer wrote:
I know a lot of people find it offensive, but I'm sort of fond of the constitution and bill of rights.

I share your fondness for that particular document but also respect states rights and their more localized laws. It's not clear Dr. Meyers was suggesting we start by challenging existing law. Might be better to first consider a few more modest goals.
How about limiting scope of "privileged" lawful authority of veterinarians to protecting the human food supply - zoonosis?

See above. There is value in "baby steps".
Take away their artificial "rank and privilege" and make them "ordinary citizens" who must earn their respect in the free market.

I don't agree that veterinarian "rank and privilege" is artificial. Eight years of formal education serves as evidence of having earned at least some of that "rank and privilege". I know of no comparable, formal, state or client acknowledged educational requirements for farriers. That places the burden of garnering respectful "rank and privilege" directly on the shoulders of our own trade.

Perhaps it is better to begin with the premise that we can not elevate the role and position of the farrier by diminishing the rank and privilege of the vet.

I'd rather that objectives demand more of myself than less of the veterinarian.

Dr. Meyers offered an organization or system that would address, "how we can collectively formulate some type of organization or system by which veterinarians and farriers can work smoothly together to assist the horse to be the best he can be."

It strikes me that the first step would require a formal process, definition and acknowledgment of the farriers specific roles and responsibilities as differentiated by that of the practicing veterinarian. To date, that role appears more a "catch-all" for whatever work a particular vet does not want or choose to do.

I'll readily and respectfully concede the veterinarians broader, multi-species education, State acknowledged and conferred licensure and greater level of client and equine responsibility. That concession is made easy by virtue of every vet being required to demonstrate a minimum level of knowledge at some point in their career.

No such requirement exists for farriers in the United States. Until such requirement does exist, if ever, no veterinarian can simply presume a reasonable minimum of qualification by farriers in any such organization or system.

I do not know if the practice of state licensure came about by virtue of a states intent to protect the food source or by a collective pursuit of such conferral by veterinarians. Either way, it exists and veterinarians benefit from its existence.

While I'm not advocating for one side or the other at this point, it does beg the question.... if state veterinary boards offered or acknowledged an examination process that resulted in the declared and recognized competency of a practicing farrier, would farriers view this as an opportunity or an infringement?

I would offer that any argument about the constitutional restrictiveness of such a practice is largely mute. That horse left the barn when states required licensure of the first practiced trade. The discussion is therefore, not about law, but rather, about a system or organization which provides open discussion between two cooperative, acknowledged and identifiable trade entities.

Identifying any veterinary member of such a system is relatively easy. They will have the accolade of DVM associated with their name. Exactly how does one identify the farrier? Perhaps there should be a bit more than a business card.

It's no small observation that the state confers greater formal credibility to a licensed hairdresser than to a practicing farrier.

As farriers and veterinarians, we can all appreciate and respect the hard earned credentials of the AFA CF or CJF. Wouldn't it be an amazing phenomena if the state and horse owning public had reason for the same level of appreciation and respect?

Wouldn't it be a good thing if state veterinary boards formally acknowledged the merit of those credentials?

Read that last comment carefully. I did not say "require" the credentials. I said, "acknowledge". The difference is subtle but a hugely important first step towards a partnership that could result in significant change.

Farriers probably cannot accomplish this change. More than three decades serve as evidence of that assertion but..., one prominent veterinarian in a single state probably could.

Question to everyone reading this thread. How would you view the following boilerplate language incorporated into your states veterinary board governing policies.

"While the State of <insert state name> Veterinary Medical Board does not require a specialist certificate or license for a person to engage in the practice of equine farriery, the board does acknowledge and recommend those practitioners who have earned the American Farrier's Association certification as having met the training requirements considered generally necessary to engage in the safe and responsible practice of equine farriery."

No constitutional restrictions, no "infringement" of your right to work and earn a living but, a damn sure clear message that there is acknowledged merit in pursuing the continuing education necessary to achieve a specific, nationally available, standardized goal.

To veterinarians reading this thread. We'll readily concede your inarguable education, credentials and value to the horse owner and the horse. Now... it's your turn to throw us a bone we can use to improve the trade. If you can generally acknowledge the training and merit of a 2 year vet tech, it's a small step to grant the certified farrier at least a nodding recognition of that same respect.

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 06 Feb 2011 15:33 #9

  • GregTrem
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in that vein of lacking ego and productive discussion:

I actually had a civil and productive conversation yesterday at a horseowner expo with a barefoot practitioner. We chatted for a good fifteen minutes, and found common ground to come from with regard to wanting horses to function well and stay sound. He took my critique of his anti shoeing displays with grace and a bit of humility, and asked for my card.

There will always be those too far at one end or another to reach, but for a large swath of people down the middle, open dialog seems to me a good move.


Dr. Myers, I think your idea is an interesting one, tho it may fight an uphill battle in some ways. As vets work on the largest portion of the animal, there is an automatic perception of their field being the primary one. The areas passed off to specialists automatically seem to be the "plus one" of the equine invitation if you know what I mean. I think that will leave other equine service people feeling like they're being asked to come to the Vet's party, not all share in it. Some people will like being included, some will resent the implication that the need the vets to create something for them to be a part of.

Thankfully, in my area there is close cooperation between vets and farriers, but the other specialties are largely off on their own. Our local dentists are nearly all vets, and chiro and massage are in a grey area.
****
Greg Tremblay
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 06 Feb 2011 15:43 #10

  • reillyshoe
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I think this is a fair question to ask of everyone, and especially of Dr. Myers who alluded to farriers in the AVMA thread as a "technologist" (technician?).

What is your ideal arrangement for veterinarians and farriers working on a horse?
How should responsibilities be divided?



Who should conduct a hoof resection? Who should decide if a horse needs a resection? Abscesses? Hoof testers? Shoe choice? Balance?
P
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 06 Feb 2011 20:25 #11

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reillyshoe wrote:

What is your ideal arrangement for veterinarians and farriers working on a horse?

Ideally, I shoe them and they perform veterinary medicine.
How should responsibilities be divided?


Responsibility for what? I'll take responsibility for the shoeing.
Who should conduct a hoof resection?

Who ever feels like doing it.
Who should decide if a horse needs a resection?

Who ever.
Abscesses?

Who ever gets there first.
Hoof testers?

Who ever.
Shoe choice?

Personally, I'm self employed so I'll decide which shoe I'm going to use. I'll take input though.
Balance?

Who ever.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 07 Feb 2011 03:31 #12

  • tbloomer
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Mark_Gough wrote:
I would offer that any argument about the constitutional restrictiveness of such a practice is largely mute. That horse left the barn when states required licensure of the first practiced trade.
The constitutional basis of all professional regulation is to protect the health and welfare of citizens. Plumbing, electrical, civil engineering, human medicine, police, cosmetology, law, real estate, barber, etc. Because these have direct contact with humans, they fall within the rights of the states to establish laws to regulate them. Over time, these laws have been expanded and perverted and people have gotten used to it - slowly losing our freedom, slowly falling into the trap.

A farrier ought to be able to take courses and get a license to take radiographs. It shouldn't be necessary for the veterinary board to approve, supervise, or have any authority over this process. Radiation exposure safety is the only reason for licensing on operating the equipment.

Ranchers and herdsman perform castration on their livestock, artificial insemination, and other minor surgical procedures. A farrier ought to be able to open an abscess or perform a resection without getting permission or supervision from a vet. It ought to be the decision of the animal's owner whether or not they trust the individual - frankly it is none of the state's damned business who works on my livestock as long as I'm not offering it to the public as a food source.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 07 Feb 2011 04:08 #13

  • George Geist
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tbloomer wrote:
The constitutional basis of all professional regulation is to protect the health and welfare of citizens. Plumbing, electrical, civil engineering, human medicine, police, cosmetology, law, real estate, barber, etc. Because these have direct contact with humans, they fall within the rights of the states to establish laws to regulate them.
Might be relevant to look at the motivation behind the old Illinois law. This law was drafted, lobbied for and successfully passed and signed into law by efforts of railroad interests. Seems they were losing a lot of money due to wheelwrights and such doing their shoeing and crippling many of their horses. This caused too much down time and was very costly. The competency testing guaranteed by that law solved that problem. Thus, in that case it was in the interests of business and economics more than health and welfare of citizens.
George
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 07 Feb 2011 04:14 #14

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Yes I want the government to look after my financial interests. Instead they take my money and use it to look after the bankers interest. :rolleyes:
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Podiatry Discussion - Can We Accomplish? 07 Feb 2011 16:49 #15

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mwmyersdvm wrote:

Do I have any start up commentary?

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

I'm probably one of the few who doesn't see a need for vets and farriers to work that closely together.

Besides farriers who work for a vet clinic, what does the farrier really need a vet for?

I understand when something isn't right with a horse the farrier and vet will have to communicate on occasion. How long does that conversation really take? 2 minutes? A quick glance at an xray to see angles, vertical depth......

Perhaps before worrying about what the vets are up to we ought to take a closer look at the work we're doing.
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