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TOPIC: AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act

RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 01 Feb 2011 02:54 #61

  • mwmyersdvm
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cuttinshoer wrote:
Actually he is a doctor of farriery.



See above.



I think Mr. Reilly may have that covered too. You should check out the credentials that go behind his name.


Would veterinarians willingly accept being certified by a panel of farriers if licenseing was to take effect.

I am in agreement with Mr. Reilly's skills as I am with a great many excellent farriers. My statement is if you want to be referred to as a "doctor" I don't have a problem with that but until you pass the state board of veterinary medicine's licensing exam the state will not recognize the title. Not my rules as I said earlier.

I am working on my farrier certification and have had to take a hiatus due to various schedules, so, I have no problem with being reviewed by a board of farriers. I do understand your question, but some of the veterinarians that might take offense to that idea often don't like to be reviewed by anyone at all. :)

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 01 Feb 2011 03:18 #62

  • reillyshoe
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mwmyersdvm wrote:
Podiatry is a branch of medicine devoted to the study, diagnosis, and treatment of disorders of the foot, ankle, and lower leg. Podiatrists are defined as physicians by the U.S. federal government and in most U.S. states. Where did your information arise that they are not MD's?

Podiatrists are not general practitioners with a special post doctorate education in feet, they are a separate education. According to the US department of Labor:


Training, Other Qualifications, and Advancement About this section

Podiatrists must be licensed, requiring 3 to 4 years of undergraduate education, the completion of a 4-year podiatric college program, and passing scores on national and State examinations.

Education and training. Prerequisites for admission to a college of podiatric medicine include the completion of at least 90 semester hours of undergraduate study, an acceptable grade point average, and suitable scores on the Medical College Admission Test. (Some colleges also may accept the Dental Admission Test or the Graduate Record Exam.)

Admission to podiatric colleges usually requires at least 8 semester hours each of biology, inorganic chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics and at least 6 hours of English. The science courses should be those designed for premedical students. Extracurricular and community activities, personal interviews, and letters of recommendation are also important. About 95 percent of podiatric students have at least a bachelor's degree.

In 2008, there were eight colleges of podiatric medicine fully accredited by the Council on Podiatric Medical Education. Colleges of podiatric medicine offer a 4-year program whose core curriculum is similar to that in other schools of medicine. During the first 2 years, students receive classroom instruction in basic sciences, including anatomy, chemistry, pathology, and pharmacology. Third-year and fourth-year students have clinical rotations in private practices, hospitals, and clinics. During these rotations, they learn how to take general and podiatric histories, perform routine physical examinations, interpret tests and findings, make diagnoses, and perform therapeutic procedures. Graduates receive the degree of Doctor of Podiatric Medicine (DPM).

Most graduates complete a hospital-based residency program after receiving a DPM. Residency programs last from 2 to 4 years. Residents receive advanced training in podiatric medicine and surgery and serve clinical rotations in anesthesiology, internal medicine, infectious disease, pediatrics, emergency medicine, and orthopedic and general surgery. Residencies lasting more than 1 year provide more extensive training in specialty areas.

Licensure. All States and the District of Columbia require a license for the practice of podiatric medicine. Each State defines its own licensing requirements, although many States grant reciprocity to podiatrists who are licensed in another State. Applicants for licensure must be graduates of an accredited college of podiatric medicine and must pass written and oral examinations. Some States permit applicants to substitute the examination of the National Board of Podiatric Medical Examiners, given in the second and fourth years of podiatric medical college, for part or all of the written State examination. In general, States require a minimum of 2 years of postgraduate residency training in an approved healthcare institution. For licensure renewal, most States require continuing education.

Other qualifications. People planning a career in podiatry should have scientific aptitude, manual dexterity, interpersonal skills, and a friendly bedside manner. In private practice, podiatrists also should have good business sense.

Certification and advancement. There are a number of certifying boards for the podiatric specialties of orthopedics, primary medicine, and surgery. Certification has requirements beyond licensure. Each board requires advanced training, the completion of written and oral examinations, and experience as a practicing podiatrist. Most managed-care organizations prefer board-certified podiatrists.

Podiatrists may advance to become professors at colleges of podiatric medicine, department chiefs in hospitals, or general health administrators.
P
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 01 Feb 2011 05:01 #63

  • Rick Talbert
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mwmyersdvm wrote:
BTW, do you really want to add pharmacology, physiology, anesthesiology, immunology, bacteriology, virology, and more to the farrier curriculum? I thought the idea is for us to combine our talents and work together on this project. By your definition of podiatry, farriers will need to be able to handle anesthesia and surgical procedures on the hoof and lower limb as well as assess a problem, trim and shoe.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

Doctor Myers, respectfully I would like to add one of the above. Pharmacology. A farrier very often finds him or herself in a position of needless danger. From a practical standpoint, a vet cannot be called out to sedate every horse that needs sedating, and the owners couldn't or wouldn't afford it even if there were vets who ONLY sedated horses. A fractious horse makes it extremely difficult to do a good job and yet we are expected to put ourselves in harms way. We should have an avenue by which to become certified to handle sedative drugs. By taking and passing the same pharmacology class that vets must take. I would have no problem with that. We do not need access to all drugs, but it would be nice to LEGALLY be able to do what gets done regardless. I will tongue in cheek say that I have "a farrier friend" who has sedated over 5 thousand horses with not a single bad reaction or problem. It is not rocket science. 1.5 to 2.5cc of xylazine IV in a healthy mature horse can be the difference between doing a good job, and being spoon fed oatmeal in a home for the mentally challenged from a kick to the cranium. Even if there were prerequisites to this class to weed out those of lesser intelligence then so be it. But the AVMA and AAEP would never extend that olive branch to the farrier profession despite the rhetorical calls for civility and cooperation. How many pharmacology classes are required in the veterinary curriculum? I ask only because there is only one listed on the course list at UGA. Maybe there are more at other schools, I don't know. But I have never appreciated the mindset that the vet's physical well being is easily and lawfully protected by their access to sedation while the farrier who has an equal if not greater need is deemed too **** to have the same right. Let us not forget that Veterinarians and farriers have a common history. The veterinary profession grew out of the farrier profession and distinguished themselves as seperate specialists. We therefore share common gray areas between the two, and this has led to both great partnerships and contentious relationships. We now have a dire shortage of Equine Veterinarians especially in rural areas. Standards to get accepted into vet school depends more on GPA and less on aptitude, maturity, and communication skills. So many of the students who graduate may be able to do a quadratic equation, but they have no people skills and no physical ability to do what is needed by the owner. We have the veterinary associations seemingly wanting to constantly expand the scope of what is considered veterinary medicine restricting other equine professionals such as dentists from practicing and yet they are not preparing students adequately or providing graduates who are capable and willing to do these things. IF farriery was not as physically difficult as it is, what we do daily would have long since been outlawed and deemed veterinary medicine. What we do is far more complex, critical, and invasive than routine dentistry or chiropractic. But because these 2 things are easy, the veterinarians want exclusive domain now. Most graduate vets have a knowledge base that is a mile wide and an inch deep. Understandably, as look what all must be accomplished in veterinary school. But own up to it. And show some respect where respect is due to the farrier profession. Farriers are as a whole more than willing to consult with and work together with veterinarians, however I cannot say the reverse is true. Often even a young completely clueless vet presumes to be at the top of the totem pole and the farrier should jump when he/she says jump. I would tell the vet associations to stop the dog and pony show called "improving vet farrier relations" and put something on the table rather than continuing to erode the rights of the farrier. Heck I sure drained many an abscess before someone told me that doing so was now considered a vet's job. According to the wording of the Arkansas vet practice act as i understand it, a farrier may be considered to be practicing veterinary medicine if he even gives an opinion as to what may be wrong with a horse's hoof as this could be considered a diagnosis, and could also be considered to be practicing veterinary medicine by correcting anything. Applying a heart bar, putting in a pour in pad, you name it. ALL we do everyday is correct and basically treat problems. Soon we will be regulated into having to have big brother hold our hand through everything we do, even if big brother doesn't know the difference between a hoof and a paw. I am for farrier licensing, for many reasons. It would improve the profession (which it is often reffered to as, whether or not it fits the criteria is up to those who enjoy debating semantics) as a whole and this has been debated ad nauseum, but let me propose a new idea. The AVMA should offer optional farrier licensing. Not mandatory, but optional. Included in the testing should be certification for sedation. I would do it in a heart beat. Give me a test. I'll pass the test. Then give me a little respect. I think thats all we really ask.
Rick Talbert
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 01 Feb 2011 05:10 #64

  • westtxshoer
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Very good post, Rick.
RJ Little
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 01 Feb 2011 11:34 #65

  • tbloomer
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mwmyersdvm wrote:
But, I am not going to expect a farrier to anesthetize a horse and surgically remove a bone sequestrum from P3 within the hoof capsule. Nor, do I expect the farrier to review a radiograph or ultrasound for lesions referable to problems within the hoof. The list can go on a bit if you like :)
I would be happy if vets would take properly exposed radiographs, follow the diagnostic process, and share their findings with farriers. Nothing complicated, just the basic fundamentals of medical practice.

Unlike farriers who are unregulated, vets have been educated to basic minimum standards. My expectations is that a "professional" who carries such a credential ought to be held to a higher standard of competence in regard to the basic fundamentals. POLICE THAT! ENFORCE THAT! Then there is no need to "protect the turf" from would be "complimentary and alternative" intruders.

To wit, the horse owner section on this forum has many threads started by owners seeking medical advice on undiagnosed ailments (from farriers) BECAUSE their vet has taken their money for a SWAG instead of executing the basic fundamental diagnostic process. What does it say of a regulated profession when those whom it is supposed to serve have lowered their expectations to the point they would seek advice from amateurs and strangers? IMO, there is TOO MUCH "legislated turf protection" afforded the veterinary profession.
I would like to use our respective talents collectively and not drive a wedge between the professions as has currently been done.
Talent is a gift, not a prerequisite. I do not presume that a vet or a farrier has any talent whatsoever. However, I EXPECT a vet to have a certain level of competence in regards to the very basic fundamentals of medical practice. I have no such expectation of a farrier BECAUSE nothing exists to support an objective judgment call on whether or not a farrier is competent.

Farriery is unregulated in the US and is likely to remain so as long as our government responds to "constitutional challenges." The practice of farriery is not formally codified by academic minimum standards, not recognized by any education authority as being subject to accreditation, and there is no motivation within the collective whole of farriery practitioners to change that. Farriers are accountable to their own individual standards. As such, we succeed or fail by our own subjective measure. AND, we have every right to get in someone's face when they try to tell us how to do our job.

Veterinary medicine is formally codified by minimum academic standards. Accredited by the AVMA, recognized as such by the federal government USDE. I would like to see the AVMA focus on better enforcement of their own codified minimum standards. There is a certain "performance expectation" created for the practitioners when stuff is put in writing and then recognized by the government. Unlike farriery, one can look up the formal standards, processes, and procedures of veterinary medical practice, and can use those standards to judge OBJECTIVELY whether or not a vet is practicing or pretending. OH YES!!! There is a CODIFIED BASIS for judgment of individual performance because every individual has subscribed to the minimum standard.

The AVMA is attempting to usurp certain legal "privileges and protections" which the constitution allows human medical doctors (protecting the public), but denies "animal medical doctors" - animals are not "the public," they don't vote, don't have "rights," don't pay taxes, and have no "representation."
Tom Bloomer
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 01 Feb 2011 11:57 #66

  • tbloomer
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Rick Talbert wrote:
. . . I am for farrier licensing, for many reasons. . . .
So you say. What are you going to do about it?
The AVMA should offer optional farrier licensing. Not mandatory, but optional. Included in the testing should be certification for sedation. I would do it in a heart beat. Give me a test. I'll pass the test. Then give me a little respect. I think thats all we really ask.
Oh, I see, you won't "do anything," except talk about somebody else doing it.

Yea it would be really cool to have a degree program in farriery with advanced levels affording things like sedation, diagnostic imaging, etc.

Yea somebody ought to do something about that . . . :rolleyes: :p
Tom Bloomer
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 01 Feb 2011 12:15 #67

  • solidrockshoer
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mwmyersdvm wrote:
But, I am not going to expect a farrier to anesthetize a horse and surgically remove a bone sequestrum from P3 within the hoof capsule. Nor, do I expect the farrier to review a radiograph or ultrasound for lesions referable to problems within the hoof. The list can go on a bit if you like :)

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

I agree, there is no reason for farriers to read radiographs for the purpose of diagnosing. A quick look at an xray for for the purpose of seeing balance is about as far as I think it should go. Obviously farriers working at a clinic will venture into reading radiographs a bit more.

I believe sedation should be left between the vet and the horse owner. Farriers aren't schooled in reactions to different drugs. We don't know what other drugs the horse is on. We don't carry other drugs in case there is an adverse reaction. How the vet and horse owning community go about getting a horse sedated is on them. It make sense to me to have short course on giving shots and then having a vet show up to look the horse over give the owner instruction on how much to give.

I also believe farriers should be able to conduct basic diagnosis in the foot. Hoof testing and leverage testing come to mind.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 01 Feb 2011 12:19 #68

  • tbloomer
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I have all my levers tested by an engineer. :cool:
Tom Bloomer
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 01 Feb 2011 13:14 #69

  • Jay Mickle
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Not to get off track but here from the Pfizer website instructions for horseowners: DORMOSEDAN GELĀ® (detomidine hydrochloride) is a convenient solution when your horses occasionally need a mild, standing sedative prior to certain stressful situations or minor, (nonpainful) husbandry procedures.

Obtained only through a veterinary prescription, DORMOSEDAN GEL is a single-dose syringe and is easy enough for horse owners to administer themselves.

If you've ever had to shoe, groom or clean the sheath of a horse that doesn't stand still, you'll appreciate this sedative almost as much as the horse.


Watched as a 7 year old mustang who had never had his hinds trimmed stand safely for trimming after the 40 minutes that it took for the drug to work. Lasts for 2 hours.
Jay Mickle
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 01 Feb 2011 13:23 #70

  • reillyshoe
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mwmyersdvm wrote:
But, I am not going to expect a farrier to anesthetize a horse and surgically remove a bone sequestrum from P3 within the hoof capsule. Nor, do I expect the farrier to review a radiograph or ultrasound for lesions referable to problems within the hoof. The list can go on a bit if you like :)

I would like to use our respective talents collectively and not drive a wedge between the professions as has currently been done.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

The changes I would like to see are much more modest and reasonable. I would like for a farrier to be allowed to open an abscess without the act being considered a "surgical procedure". I would like for a farrier to be able to place a wedge pad on a low heeled horse without concern of having formed an inherent diagnosis. In many states "the application of any device designed to prevent or treat lameness" constitutes the practice of veterinary medicine.
I am not trying to become a veterinarian, I am trying to ensure that farriers are able to shoe horses.
P
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 01 Feb 2011 13:41 #71

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mwmyersdvm wrote:
A radiation technologist gave me her definition of a technologist versus a technician as thus: A technician knows how to perform a procedure while a technologist knows why. There is no down side to the term technologist. Frankly, if you want me to call you a "Doctor of Farriery" I have no problem with that. I am usually refered to by my clients with my nickname as they are well aware of my competency and I do not feel being called "doctor" has any particular meaning. However, until you can get the various governmental agencies to allow you to become a "Doctor of Farriery" I was just trying to come up with the best title available to keep the system functional. I did not mean offense to anyones sensitivities. Plenty of us have been called a lot worse things than a 'technologist' in our careers. :)

According to Wikipedia:
Podiatry is a branch of medicine devoted to the study, diagnosis, and treatment of disorders of the foot, ankle, and lower leg. Podiatrists are defined as physicians by the U.S. federal government and in most U.S. states. Where did your information arise that they are not MD's?

It is my understanding that to be a 'podiatrist' you have to have a medical license. Not my rules, but until you can get the government to change we have to deal with them. If you feel the technologist title unacceptable, do you have a more appropriate one?



M. W. Myers, D.V.M.


Reading on in your Wikipedia link, podiatrists are identified as "DPM", not as an "MD". The education is different, and it is not a continuation of the MD education (as board certified specialists are trained).

The are worse things to be called than a technologist or technician. My complaint is the hierarchy implied in the title, which as I noted is often used to describe someone working under the supervision of a veterinarian.

I would suggest that the training and perspective of those who trim feet and fashion orthotics for the betterment of the horse is unique, and should work side by side with the veterinary community. Both of our unique skills and knowledge should be recognized- I cannot do your job, and you should not do mine. We already have a term to define my profession- farrier. The title does not need to be fancy, it just needs to be recognized as unique and valuable by the AVMA. We are not your technicians.
P
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 01 Feb 2011 14:25 #72

  • tbloomer
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reillyshoe wrote:
. . . In many states "the application of any device designed to prevent or treat lameness" constitutes the practice of veterinary medicine.
So what? The "laws" that make such procedures a "criminal act" are not constitutional. Beyond handling and distributing controlled substances, the protection of "society" that veterinary regulation provides (constitutionally legal) is protecting humans from animal born diseases entering the food supply or zoonosis. The rest of it is what they've been allowed to get away with . . . so far.
Tom Bloomer
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 01 Feb 2011 15:38 #73

  • Rick Talbert
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tbloomer wrote:
So you say. What are you going to do about it?

Oh, I see, you won't "do anything," except talk about somebody else doing it.

Yea it would be really cool to have a degree program in farriery with advanced levels affording things like sedation, diagnostic imaging, etc.

Yea somebody ought to do something about that . . . :rolleyes: :p

What would you suggest I do then? Quit working for a living and lobby the AVMA? Get a tour bus and ride around the country with a megaphone? I am open to your suggestions sir. I am not in a position of power or influence, but I can voice my opinion as I did above and maybe someone who is might have a look.
Rick Talbert
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 01 Feb 2011 22:45 #74

  • 13puppet
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As a Farrier and Equine Dentist, the sedation issue is over rated. Administering the shot should not be a serious concern, given a bit of practice and the proper size needle the jugalar is really easy to hit.
The major issue is with the medicine we are injecting.

Some sort of class or instructional course with a DVM would be sufficient.
I mean come on, how much money are vets making on calls that just require sedating the horse fir farrier or dentist.
Bo Crotta - Equine Specialist
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 01 Feb 2011 22:49 #75

  • westtxshoer
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13puppet wrote:
Some sort of class or instructional course with a DVM would be sufficient.

Or just do like I have and practice on thousands of cows.:D
RJ Little
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