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TOPIC: AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act

RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 21 Jan 2011 12:06 #31

  • tbloomer
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For the past several years at various farrier education venues, i.e. the IHCS, I have heard many lectures on the importance of direct communication between veterinarians and farriers.

IME, this is a veterinary problem, NOT a farrier problem. When the AAEP and/or the AVMA gets around to policing their own policies on ethical conduct, horses will benefit. Until then, I would prefer not to see vets lecturing to farriers on the topic - IT'S YOUR PROBLEM, NOT OURS. :cool:
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 24 Jan 2011 00:20 #32

  • mwmyersdvm
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reillyshoe wrote:
Employing farriers as your technician is one thing, but having the farrier charge for the service and utilize a veterinarian as a consultant might be considered an entirely different set of circumstances to many veterinarians (ironically, the end product might be the same, if the financial pathway a bit different).
In this day of technology, it would be entirely possible for a farrier to employ a radiologist on a consulting basis and email images to anyone in the world for an instant expert opinion.

As far as assessing radiographic technique, I would suggest that not all veterinarians are equally. I have also found that a veterinarian is more likely take offense at a critique of their radiographic technique from a farrier than a farrier is to take offense at a veterinary technique of their shoeing (and THAT is saying something!).

You are quite correct on the first point. I don't have a problem reading radiographs from any source since I do this regularly. I have also noted that technique is often better when done by technicians than veterinarians, not in all instances, but in more than there should be, for certain.

The interesting thing about critiquing veterinary technique on hoof radiographs I feel, is that the veterinarians are in an area that they are not familiar with, hoof images are far more difficult to get and get right than, say, a hock, due to having the horse be much more cooperative by standing quietly on a set of blocks (especially in the rear), and the need for soft tissue imaging is much more crucial in this area.

Veterinarians simply are not taught these techniques in veterinary schools so they question anyone who is discussing them since they have not placed much importance on them in the past. They also could have had quite a battle with the horse to obtain the less than optimal films that are presented so they can resent having them viewed in a disparaging light.

Farriers, on the other hand, are working in their territory, so they are much more comfortable in having a debate on the technique. I generally don't have problems discussing therapeutic shoeing with a farrier, but I am also in the position to do it on the spot if needed and the majority of the farriers that deal with me know this. I get a significant number of positive results as well, especially if my instructions for aftercare are followed :)

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 24 Jan 2011 00:26 #33

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tbloomer wrote:
For the past several years at various farrier education venues, i.e. the IHCS, I have heard many lectures on the importance of direct communication between veterinarians and farriers.

IME, this is a veterinary problem, NOT a farrier problem. When the AAEP and/or the AVMA gets around to policing their own policies on ethical conduct, horses will benefit. Until then, I would prefer not to see vets lecturing to farriers on the topic - IT'S YOUR PROBLEM, NOT OURS. :cool:

Then we need to have farriers lecture to the veterinarians on the topic and get their response. I do agree you and I have both seen a great deal of "lip service" given to this topic and it has improved a marginal amount considering the amount of time invested in its discussion.

However, that said, we should not be working to assess blame, but to work to a goal that is needed for the horse's benefit. Since the veterinarians don't seem to be able to truly get it done, and I do agree with you this is not happening fast enough, then let's have some of our lecturing farriers tackle the topic and see if somebody will actually listen.

I do get the idea that the ethical considerations are a very large issue and you are correct on that point. A lecture addressing this problem directly would be best since I get the feeling this is being skirted for "political correctness". Got any takers to put a lecture like this one together? I think Tom's point is this is where we need to go and wholeheartedly agree.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 24 Jan 2011 00:51 #34

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mwmyersdvm wrote:
Then we need to have farriers lecture to the veterinarians on the topic and get their response.


Unfortunately, RACE (the group who makes recommendations for CE credits) decided to reduce the amount of CE credit available at the IHCS and the AFA convention. Truthfully, it is difficult for veterinarians to receive any CE for farrier presentations.
P
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 24 Jan 2011 18:01 #35

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mwmyersdvm wrote:
A lecture addressing this problem directly would be best since I get the feeling this is being skirted for "political correctness". Got any takers to put a lecture like this one together? I think Tom's point is this is where we need to go and wholeheartedly agree.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
I've handled it in my practice as a matter of policy up front with the horse owner. In order to help the horse I need to have a direct in person conversation with the vet, preferably at the stables with the horse in front of us. Not passing messages back and forth.

Bottom line, once a vet is involved, I stop all work on the horse until the owner arranges for me to meet with the vet. I make it very clear to the owner I will be happy to change my schedule to accommodate the vets convenience. This puts the responsibility in the owners hands and removes any excuse the vet may have about me not being available for a meeting.

This also puts any urgency/performance pressure in regard to the horse's suffering and how soon the horse gets treatment between the owner and the vet.
Tom Bloomer
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 26 Jan 2011 03:09 #36

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tbloomer wrote:
I've handled it in my practice as a matter of policy up front with the horse owner. In order to help the horse I need to have a direct in person conversation with the vet, preferably at the stables with the horse in front of us. Not passing messages back and forth.

Bottom line, once a vet is involved, I stop all work on the horse until the owner arranges for me to meet with the vet. I make it very clear to the owner I will be happy to change my schedule to accommodate the vets convenience. This puts the responsibility in the owners hands and removes any excuse the vet may have about me not being available for a meeting.

This also puts any urgency/performance pressure in regard to the horse's suffering and how soon the horse gets treatment between the owner and the vet.

Got to agree with Tom. Anytime a customer of mine says they have had a vet, my first question is who and telephone number. Either I call them or talk to the vet on site. By doing this I have also developed a good working relationship with several vets in my area.
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 27 Jan 2011 03:10 #37

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I followed the TX Equine Dentistry case, and a study concured that in the average licensed Vet straight out of school has less than 8 hours of study on equine dentistry, I wonder how much time is spent on farriery?

Now how much time have we all spent becoming farriers, schools,apprenticeship, seminars,
Bo Crotta - Equine Specialist
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 27 Jan 2011 03:19 #38

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13puppet wrote:
I followed the TX Equine Dentistry case, and a study concured that in the average licensed Vet straight out of school has less than 8 hours of study on equine dentistry, I wonder how much time is spent on farriery?

Now how much time have we all spent becoming farriers, schools,apprenticeship, seminars,

at least half that, I would say, maybe more:D
Rick Talbert
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 27 Jan 2011 03:25 #39

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I was going to put pen to paper so to speak for this purpose, but really I have such little faith that the words would even be read much less considered by the AVMA, I think its a waste of time and effort. They care about what is in the best interest of the pocket books of those they represent, period. The more of a monopoly they can create, the better for their association. If I do write anything, I would identify myself as a horse owner, not a farrier, just so it MIGHT get read.
Rick Talbert
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 27 Jan 2011 13:04 #40

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13puppet wrote:
I followed the TX Equine Dentistry case, and a study concured that in the average licensed Vet straight out of school has less than 8 hours of study on equine dentistry, I wonder how much time is spent on farriery?
I've spend considerable time researching veterinary accreditation. This is how I would present the "legal authority" of the AVMA in regards to farriery in a court of law.

The AVMA is the US Department of Education (USDE) recognized accrediting body for veterinary medicine. In any accredited degree program, there are a minimum number of course topics that must be covered. Each course must have a certain number of credit hours.

Generally the courses are taught by instructors with college degrees in the subject or degrees where that subject makes up a large part of the discipline. For example, English and writing courses for veterinarians are taught by English teachers with English degrees. Chemistry taught by chemistry teachers, math by math teachers, etc. In core curriculum of the veterinary degree, the "medicine" is taught by folks with medical degrees.

If farriery is taught as part of the vet program, the AVMA cannot give any "credits" or make it a "requirement" because the USDE will not recognize credits in a subject that has no accredited degree program of its own.

Now that I've said that, I'll say this. The AVMA has no more business "accrediting" farriery courses than it does English, math, or chemistry. The US government does not recognize the AVMA as an authority on this topic, and neither should a court of law.
Tom Bloomer
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 27 Jan 2011 16:19 #41

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tbloomer wrote:
I've spend considerable time researching veterinary accreditation. This is how I would present the "legal authority" of the AVMA in regards to farriery in a court of law.

The AVMA is the US Department of Education (USDE) recognized accrediting body for veterinary medicine. In any accredited degree program, there are a minimum number of course topics that must be covered. Each course must have a certain number of credit hours.

Generally the courses are taught by instructors with college degrees in the subject or degrees where that subject makes up a large part of the discipline. For example, English and writing courses for veterinarians are taught by English teachers with English degrees. Chemistry taught by chemistry teachers, math by math teachers, etc. In core curriculum of the veterinary degree, the "medicine" is taught by folks with medical degrees.

If farriery is taught as part of the vet program, the AVMA cannot give any "credits" or make it a "requirement" because the USDE will not recognize credits in a subject that has no accredited degree program of its own.

Now that I've said that, I'll say this. The AVMA has no more business "accrediting" farriery courses than it does English, math, or chemistry. The US government does not recognize the AVMA as an authority on this topic, and neither should a court of law.
Hey Tom,
None of us are lawyers, nor to we play them on TV, but just for fits and shiggles this brings something to mind.

Back in the days when the government kept many horses, even had government stud farms as other countries still do, as well as running a large scale horse shoeing school at Ft Riley Ks they certainly gave it veterinary oversight.

Army shoers were all enlisted men. Their commanding officer was a vet. Thus final say about any shoeing situation was with the vet in command. That entire division of the army was part of the veterinary corps. Can we conclude from this that if the government still had any interest in this countries horse industry that their outlook wouldn't have changed?

Now, we all know that UCMJ and civilian law are completely separate worlds and it might be irrelevant but if it matters for anything it is clearly a precedent. I think also in matters of civil litigation concerning shoeing matters it would be hard to believe any judge wouldn't accept a vet as an expert witness in court.
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 27 Jan 2011 16:29 #42

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Their commanding officer was a vet.

Generally officers have college degrees.

Enlisted don't have college degrees.

That entire division of the army was part of the veterinary corps.

Two words come to mind - MILITARY INTELLIGENCE. :D
Tom Bloomer
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 27 Jan 2011 18:55 #43

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There is no substitute for hands on experience, just think about how many feet we touch, now there are some cowboy shorts that just put a shoe on a foot,
But the vast majority of competent farriers study the foot, each and every day.
Bo Crotta - Equine Specialist
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 29 Jan 2011 16:18 #44

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13puppet wrote:
There is no substitute for hands on experience, just think about how many feet we touch, now there are some cowboy shorts that just put a shoe on a foot,
But the vast majority of competent farriers study the foot, each and every day.
That is an unavoidable job requirement for a farrier. Sort of like a carpenter being required to know the difference between oak and pine.

OTOH, the AVMA has no requirements whatsoever in regards to veterinarians having any training, academic or clinical, in regards to farriery.

George, In and of itself, "DVM" has about as much "expert" status in farriery as it does in marine biology.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 29 Jan 2011 22:59 #45

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OTOH, the AVMA has no requirements whatsoever in regards to veterinarians having any training, academic or clinical, in regards to farriery.

George, In and of itself, "DVM" has about as much "expert" status in farriery as it does in marine biology.[/QUOTE]

Careful, Tom, I happen to be pretty well versed in marine biology and have served as a consulting veterinarian for aquaria, pet shops, food fish industry, and house calls on marine and fresh water fish. Did an ultrasound on a pigmy sperm whale at the Virginia Marine Science Museum a few years ago. Unfortunately didn't get my data on correction of environmentally induced corneal ulcers in sea lions out for publication. Must have gone back underneath too many horses to take the time to write it up :)

That said, you are correct in the the AVMA in general has no requirement for farrier knowledge. However, they have brought up the discussion of limited licensing for veterinarians since they have begun to believe that the studunts going through veterinary schools cannot handle all species or all veterinary disciplines in the time allotted. I do not agree with this, but that's just me, under a horse in the morning, checking out an elephant for the circus in the afternooon and seeing an ailing alligator in the evening.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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