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TOPIC: AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act

RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 19 Feb 2011 22:37 #226

  • mwmyersdvm
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For those who are curious about my work. Here is a case I attended. This Appendix Quarter Horse is tripping to the point the owner is becoming concerned about him falling with her. She has discussed it with the farrier and his contention is the horse is lazy. He did not feel any change to his shoeing protocol was in order. I suggested an increase in hoof angle and moving the breakover caudally with whatever means he usually uses. He declined. The owner’s finances precluded radiographs and I certainly would have preferred to take them. I agreed to make a few changes in his trim and shoeing and let’s see how he responds.
The horse was Grade 2/5 lame on this left fore on the longe while tracking left and Grade 1/5 tracking right. He did trip several times during his longe work.
This is the before and after pictures. As you can see, the first picture shows a hoof that had not been done that long ago.

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=562&pictureid=5130

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=562&pictureid=5131

He was trimmed to move the heels caudally and move the breakover back. There was not much that could be taken from the sole. A Natural Balance steel shoe with a number 3 Castle plastic bar wedge pad was applied and the hoof packed with VetTec Equipak.
The horse longed sound with no lameness or tripping after this application.
Could it be better? Fewer rasp marks and a bit cleaner line down the dorsal wall would improve the appearance. However, the mechanics were very much appreciated by the horse.
Had the horse not been lame and only tripping, the trim and shoe would likely have been sufficient and even an Eventer would have been an option, but I wanted to really relieve the heels on this horse quickly so I ramped up the mechanics a bit more.
This horse shortly had a much better pastern alignment and went to eventers and then barefoot with another farrier. I only kept him for two more cycles and the owner found another farrier to take over.
M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 19 Feb 2011 23:06 #227

  • Mike Ferrara
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mwmyersdvm wrote:
Unfortunately they have. The voter base hears a lot more 'warm and fuzzy' reports from the humane organizations than they do from agriculture representatives. They don't understand how their food is produced and the 'horror stories' from these groups have decidedly slanted their view on the process.

When the actual data was presented to a Congressional committe shwoing that confinement rearing of chickens was less stressful on the birds than free range rearing them, the comittee fully agreed with the data. However, they showed the researchers that their voter base was in favor of free ranging so the data was not material to the case, their votes to keep them in office was more important.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

I don't know who the surveyed but I think you'll find that the "right" side of our political spectrum isn't going to listen to the humane organizations.

We "free range" our chickens so we don't have to buy as much feed and the coup doesn't get as dirty.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 19 Feb 2011 23:22 #228

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Mike Ferrara wrote:
I don't know who the surveyed but I think you'll find that the "right" side of our political spectrum isn't going to listen to the humane organizations.

We "free range" our chickens so we don't have to buy as much feed and the coup doesn't get as dirty.

Don't know who did the survey, but this was what the researchers were told by the Congressional committee. The 'right' side may not listen to the humane organizations, but neither do they contact their senators and representatives to get anything done about them either. The humane organizations and their supporters have very influential lobbying power.

The problem with free range rearing of livestock is that it is too labor intensive, requires a lot more space, and too inefficient for mass production. Works great in the back yard and small farm, but not when we need to feed the entire USA and a lot of the planet.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 19 Feb 2011 23:25 #229

  • Rick Talbert
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mwmyersdvm wrote:
For those who are curious about my work. Here is a case I attended. This Appendix Quarter Horse is tripping to the point the owner is becoming concerned about him falling with her. She has discussed it with the farrier and his contention is the horse is lazy. He did not feel any change to his shoeing protocol was in order. I suggested an increase in hoof angle and moving the breakover caudally with whatever means he usually uses. He declined. The owner’s finances precluded radiographs and I certainly would have preferred to take them. I agreed to make a few changes in his trim and shoeing and let’s see how he responds.
The horse was Grade 2/5 lame on this left fore on the longe while tracking left and Grade 1/5 tracking right. He did trip several times during his longe work.
This is the before and after pictures. As you can see, the first picture shows a hoof that had not been done that long ago.

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=562&pictureid=5130

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=562&pictureid=5131

He was trimmed to move the heels caudally and move the breakover back. There was not much that could be taken from the sole. A Natural Balance steel shoe with a number 3 Castle plastic bar wedge pad was applied and the hoof packed with VetTec Equipak.
The horse longed sound with no lameness or tripping after this application.
Could it be better? Fewer rasp marks and a bit cleaner line down the dorsal wall would improve the appearance. However, the mechanics were very much appreciated by the horse.
Had the horse not been lame and only tripping, the trim and shoe would likely have been sufficient and even an Eventer would have been an option, but I wanted to really relieve the heels on this horse quickly so I ramped up the mechanics a bit more.
This horse shortly had a much better pastern alignment and went to eventers and then barefoot with another farrier. I only kept him for two more cycles and the owner found another farrier to take over.
M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

I think this is a nice job. Looks good. what happened to the third nail though?:)
Rick Talbert
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 19 Feb 2011 23:46 #230

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Rick Talbert wrote:
I think this is a nice job. Looks good. what happened to the third nail though?:)

That is a Mustad 14 slim that hooks into the COA for medial to lateral stabilization :)

It is holding the pad to the shoe. I only used two nails to secure the package. I frequently only use four or five nails to secure shoes. The really big guys might get six if they need them. My show Saddlebreds usually get five to six.

Thank you for the comment. I will admit, not all of the horses come out looking like this one as he had a pretty good hoof to begin with (good mass and minimal distortion) and he was a nice guy to trim and shoe. I don't often get hooves this nice to work on.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 20 Feb 2011 00:13 #231

  • Mike Ferrara
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mwmyersdvm wrote:
The problem with free range rearing of livestock is that it is too labor intensive, requires a lot more space, and too inefficient for mass production. Works great in the back yard and small farm, but not when we need to feed the entire USA and a lot of the planet.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

I understand. If the humane organizations have their way we'll have very happy chickens but none of us will be able to afford them for our table. After all, chickens are people too.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 20 Feb 2011 00:59 #232

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Nothing wrong with the job..I'm with rick...would like to know why the owner decided to go barefoot ...horse had to be better off in this set up...this is a good example of what I have been trying to get at...would you have kept shoeing this horse or was it you who decided to stop at two cycles....where was the current farrier when this shoeing took place.... what I'm wondering is if you and ur team come in and take over a case will y'all keep this horse on ur books or will a owner be left to find a farrier afterwards??
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 20 Feb 2011 02:29 #233

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Travis Reed wrote:
Nothing wrong with the job..I'm with rick...would like to know why the owner decided to go barefoot ...horse had to be better off in this set up...this is a good example of what I have been trying to get at...would you have kept shoeing this horse or was it you who decided to stop at two cycles....where was the current farrier when this shoeing took place.... what I'm wondering is if you and ur team come in and take over a case will y'all keep this horse on ur books or will a owner be left to find a farrier afterwards??

Unless the owner specifically requests that I remain the farrier, I will work with the owner and the previous farrier (unless there has been a break with the owner) or assist in finding a regular farrier service for the owner. I have maintained a few horses through the years. These are special cases that have responded well to what I do and dont do well when returned to another farrier. One of my best farrier friends had no problem returning a case to me as the horse and I just work well together. I am sure you have seen such cases. One farrier just knows what the horse needs and it is hard to exactly explain what that is. Dependent on the case at hand and the circumstances surrounding it I may work totally with a farrier, one that comes with the horse (preferably), one I know well (also good), take on the case personally and return it after one to several cycles, or remain with it for a longer period. There is no specific formula for how this works since there are so many variables involved. This farrier actually upset the owner with a rather callous attitude and told her to get the horse properly trained and ridden. I wouldn't totally disagree that she needed to do that to some extent, but he did not recognize the lameness and made no effort to handle the situation. Perhaps he wanted to fire the owner.

The owners decision to go barefoot was a monetary one. Fortunately the horse progressed well and rapidly. He had good hoof mass and once it fell into place he had a strong hoof that stood up well to barefoot. He moved from the barn a year or so ago and I do not know how he is doing at the moment.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 20 Feb 2011 03:45 #234

  • Rick Talbert
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Travis's question reminded me of a case I experienced. I was trimming 6 horses down the road from me, the family had plenty of money, but they were naive, novice owners who would call 2 maybe 3 times a year to get the horses trimmed, (whenever they really looked awful). Attempts to educate them never seemed to sink in. I would come out and get the same questions, "boy those hoof cracks just don't seem to be getting any better do they, I don;t know what else we can do" to which I would in my diplomatic way say "well you could try trimming them more often then twice a year and see how that works." The horses were mostly older pasture ornaments (14-27 or there abouts) that may get taken out for a ride around the farm once a month if that. Came out once to find one old gelding had not one but 2 badly bowed tendons. They looked like Pistol Pete's socks from his LSU days. Horse was pretty crippled (and there was no telling how long it had been that way) and the owners wanted to know if they could still ride him. I said, "no I wouldn't, the horse is old, blind in one eye, you have other horses here you can ride, this horse needs rest and relaxation and tincture of time, and at his age, you may consider just having him be a pasture pet, because this is not a mild case of tendonitis, these are fairly bad." Well, that apparently was not what they wanted to hear, they took the horse to a vet (one that I don't always see eye to eye with) and came home excited and enthusiastic, calling me to come out because they now had an answer to the problem. The vet told them if they had me shoe the horse with aluminum wedge shoes the horse should then be fine. The woman was so happy and figured she should very soon be able to ride the horse once these magic shoes were applied. Seeing that my opinion didn't matter, I applied the shoes. The horse could only stand to have a hoof up for a few seconds at a time. For the next 2-3 years, I would get a call every 5 or 6 months that the horse needed to be shod.:rolleyes: I would go out and find sometimes the horse would still have both shoes on, sometimes it would have one on, but its hooves were like snow skis, the horse remained crippled and obviously lame, though the owners would always say how much the shoes were helping, I certainly couldnt see it. Toes were dished, heels run forward, bruising and corns, the horse would hobble up to get done rockering back over its heels, and the owners still thought the magic shoes the vet prescribed were wanderlust. The only time I saw this horse walking better was when I went to do it and it had lost both shoes. These folks had such faith in the letters DVM that they ignored the obvious and considered the vet's prophecy fulfilled. They saw what they wanted to see in other words, but really they couldn't tell if a horse was lame or not, no clue. And rode the lame sucker because they couldnt see how lame it was, after all the vet told them most assuredly that the shoes would solve the problem so they assumed it had. Whatever I said didn't matter. BUT, the POINT of the story is this. I knew these owners and knew that they would not stay on schedule. I knew that shoes on these horses would do more harm than good because they would stay on forever and a day, this is why I would not recommend any sort of shoeing to them knowing the situation. Eventually, my stomach couldn't take it anymore and I quit them. BUT, if the vet had consulted prior to his miracle treatment prescription then I could have told him, shoes will do more harm than good in this situation. These are horses that hold down the pasture to keep it from blowing away, and these owners are not of the type you may think they are. I wonder Doc, if you ever consult with the attending farrier before making your suggestions to the owner? Sometimes you may get a very different perspective.
Rick Talbert
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 20 Feb 2011 04:48 #235

  • Travis Reed
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Rick hit the nail on the head... that DVM carrys more weight than the elastic on a fat ladys draws....and we all know the mass of vets are not like each other most5 have no desire to do what dr myers does and that's willing to shoe a horse but they would just love to stand on the side lines and point at what they THINK might work...I promise you my quess at what might work will be a better one than and vet that does not c
limb under horses day in day out.......I usta think why is some so down on vets and them telling farriers how to shoe....well I guess my tenure was not there yet because in the last year I have started to rethink this.....due to seeing horses not do well at the hands of a vet....I'm not talking ur clinics that cover all areas I'm talking about the vets giving booster shots and whiping noses and playing lameness experts in the field....sometimes its as if they wanna do what ever u don't. Wanna do....we are not talking places like R&R ....I think as farriers we all know what vets I'm talking about.....vets let the ego get in the way of the horses well being just as much as farriers and I see times when they should refer the horse to a clinic..........Doc in ur plan what will you do to assure that the vets that are on board take the time and steps to CE more about really shoeing the horse.............and will ur plan have in place a assurance to the horse owner that if the farrier drgs up that the vet on site can walk to his truck grab some chaps and get the job done in a manner as as the farrier would have......Doc I assure you not trying poke holes in ur dream just trying to point out any flawsx before they arise...
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 20 Feb 2011 05:21 #236

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I do agree with Rick as I have had that same scenario happen to me. Not only do veterinarians bypass farriers, they also bypass veterinarians with a special interest and knowledge in the hoof. Mine was different in that this was a good dressage horse that had been diagnosed with 'bad hocks' and had them injected. The horse had typical elongated toes and underrun heels with a negative palmar angle in both rear for the icing on the cake. I wanted to radiograph the hooves and go over the case with her farrier but the trainer knew that the 'guru' vets had cured him and wanted nothing changed. The trainer knew that correcting the angular problems in the hooves would shorten his stride and ruin his reach under himself. The horse remained lame until the barn closed down a few months ago to make way for a subdivision.

The possibilities of pitfalls in this idea are virtually too numerous to calculate. However, there are a significant number of veterinarians that will work with farriers and even if we don't have a board certification of a sort, an association with some guidelines could be a good start. We at the very least, need to find the veterinarians and farriers who can work together and get a list of them so we know who and where everyone is.

Input on some bylaws for the association, codes of conduct, anything along these lines would be another start. My two main 'put on the chaps' incidents took place over twenty tears ago and I hope I have learned a bit more diplomacy since then. However, if a farrier tells me he is not going to shoe a sore horse any differently than he is currently doing and I just need to perform a neurectomy to 'fix' his problem, I most likely will put them on again right there. I would not expect that sort of communication from the members of this board, but there are farriers out there who will continue to do this.

So, shall we continue on the podiatry thread?

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 20 Feb 2011 08:05 #237

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From what i gather doc you need to post 99 more pics of your work
before you get the green light from the forum:D:D
Smitty88
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 20 Feb 2011 14:52 #238

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mwmyersdvm wrote:
. . . an association with some guidelines could be a good start.
This already happened well over a decade ago. Though it may help to review the history.
http://www.anvilmag.com/comment/aaepflc.htm

Most recent update for AAEP:
http://www.equipodiatry.com/news/aaep_guidelines.html

Most recent update for the Guild (Incorporated) - essentially the same as the original wording from the unincorporated GPF.
http://guildfarriers.org/ethics

In spite of this, many farriers and virtually the entire horse owning public is ignorant of the following facts:
  1. A farrier is not required to follow the vet's instructions and the vet has no authority whatsoever over a farrier's actions.
  2. A farrier is legally liable for any bad outcome which results from executing a "vet's prescription."
  3. A vet has no legal liability for giving a "bad prescription" unless they shoe the horse with their own hands.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 20 Feb 2011 15:05 #239

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smitty88 wrote:
From what i gather doc you need to post 99 more pics of your work
before you get the green light from the forum:D:D

Do radiographs count? :)

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 20 Feb 2011 15:09 #240

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mwmyersdvm wrote:
Do radiographs count? :)

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

no radiographs
Smitty88
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