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TOPIC: AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act

RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Feb 2011 06:02 #211

  • Rick Talbert
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reillyshoe wrote:
Hey, I'm all for doing what makes you happy- but don't tell me this is the best thing going without some substantiating evidence. I played basketball tonight and hockey on Tuesday night- but my goal is not to become the best I could be. It it was my goal to be the best hockey player I could be, I would be playing every day (and night). Something tells me that DHelton's schedule at the forge is all day every day (and evening), along with a bunch of other farriers. That specific passion is what makes them so good.

agreed. And even within the farrier profession are specialties. I know guys that can make very nice shoes but do not understand the horse's hoof very well, and vice versa. But I can surely see one's desire and interests spreading beyond the confines of their current job description. And if someone wants to diversify and learn more, more power to them. I am sure you are surrounded by excellent veterinarians in your position, but in some circumstances a farrier can get frustrated with the level of veterinary care available to his clients in his area (especially as it relates to the hoof). I can see the temptation to fill both roles when there is a void. If one pursued this course, I would only think that he would be increasing his knowledge and capabilities in order to provide the needed services that may not be available to owners in his area. I don't think diversification is a bad business strategy. And just as you pointed out the differences between an MD and a Doctor of Podiatry, I think that it would solve some problems if we recognized farriers as the equivalent of podiatrists, but in humans the doctor of podiatry is not dependent on the general practitioner because he has the legal rights to do certain things that we as farriers are dependent on the equine general practitioner for. It would be very interesting, given the gray areas we so often talk about and the common overlap between the responsibilities, protocol, and hierarchy of vets and farriers, if there was a third option, being a major which combined both professions. We would still have the farriers who are specialists in every equestrian discipline just as we do now, but it would allow someone who's interest was in clinical farriery an avenue to practice in the same manner (independently) as in human podiatry. As it is now, both professions are limited and therefore dependent on each other in most situations. Unfortunately geography and personalities often prevent the perfect match from occuring. The vet may be surrounded by poor farriers or the farrier may be surrounded by poor vets. A good one of each is a rarity. I am pro-farrier, and I am for increasing the professional respect which as it now exists seems to cast us in a second class status at least in the eyes of the law in many states. Preaching to the masses on the corner that the farrier is more educated on matters pertaining to the hoof isn't going to make a difference, as long as we have people out there calling themselves farriers who have a 6 week education and don't know a coffin bone from a chicken bone. We need an avenue to legitimize the profession in my opinion, I don't know for certain how that is accomplished and I doubt that it ever will change to be honest, because we cannot seem to agree as farriers on much of anything.
Rick Talbert
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Feb 2011 06:40 #212

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mwmyersdvm wrote:
I have put on my chaps and got under a horse on two occasions. One when a farrier flatly said that a shoe culd not be put on a horse and another when a farrier said that nothing could be done for a horse and I should just nerve the horse. I don't think on those two occasions that I was the one initiating the non-team approach. Perhaps i could have handled the situation a bit mor ediplomatically, but their attitude was far from pleasant and I had asked them their opinion first before I suggested an alternative and then received the "can't be done' or the 'veterinary suggestion'.
What is the "veterinary suggestion"?
I am glad you like to trim and feel you can do a great job. I'm sure you can. I feel my skills at the trim surpass my skills at the forge as I don't do much forging. My veterianry truck isn't rigged to carry a forge so I do my modifications on a stall jack. I have stated that I really do work with farriers and shoe primarily very painful cases which will ultimately be turned over to the owner's farrier of choice. I have a few select horses that I do as they seem to 'click' with my style plus the occasional "big footed" horse that I like to shoe and the farriers in my area do not.
My forging ain't what it oughta be either, I can sympathize. Travis, if your reading this, the one time I put my wife to work at the forge she set her boob on fire, lol. She was then relegated to sweeping. (this was way back before the first little rugrat came along). But doc, why not set your truck up with a forge, if this is your weak area? If by "big footed" horses your refering to drafts, how in the heck are you accomplishing shoeing drafts with a stall jack?
As for my work exhibition, I will get some photos when I can as I take radiographs and very few photos. To be frank, since those that have asked appear to be a bit on the hostile side, I really don't expect you to be pleased no matter what I choose to post.
I would say your probably right. But I would encourage you to post them anyway. And take whatever feedback positive or negative. Posting pics is comparable to forging amongst your peers. I have been to clinics where the second half of the day was hands on, and after lunch half the group leaves. They don't want to expose any weaknesses and therefore they do not progress. I have more respect for someone who makes an honest effort than I do for someone who never tries. I would say post some pics of your work, post some pics of some work of the farriers you work with that have applied your ideas, case studies, post the rads, post some of the things you do well that is related to farriery such as tenotomies or whatever. These could all be good educational exchanges.
I don't add a CF, CJF, or other title behind my ame because I don't have one. I do have an interest in obtaining such in the future, but it doesn't fit into my current schedule. It appears there is considerable discussion on the validity of such titles at times, but I will reserve such judgement until I take the respective test.
Get er done. :D
It appears that my intention for this thread has been missed. I did not intend for it to be about me. It was intended to get some input on how farriers can best benefit in the future which may be bringing licensure, specialties, and the possibilities of restrictions of the trade. I do not want this for farriers and I know they do not want it to happen to them. It happened to equine dental technicians in North Carolina. However, if everyone sits back to watch the show and does not intercede in the 'reality game' they wil probably not like the unhappy ending.
I agree the thread has gotten off track, surprise surprise. I can appreciate the original subject of the thread. On that note, I can say that if by restrictions you mean laws to prevent farriers from shoeing horses, these may occur if they have not already occured in some states, but enforcement of these laws is not practical, and would not be taken well by the horse owning public who I think would quickly act to get such a law reversed if it were actually enforced.
There is a new specialty veterinary board for "Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation". This could easily move into hoof care since it would be a likely portion of the rehabilitation process for equines. Its very title would exclude farrier participation except at the discretion of the veterinarian. I don't want this to happen.
interesting
Rick Talbert
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Feb 2011 10:35 #213

  • tbloomer
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Rick Talbert wrote:
We need an avenue to legitimize the profession in my opinion, I don't know for certain how that is accomplished and I doubt that it ever will change to be honest, because we cannot seem to agree as farriers on much of anything.
Some farriers feel their reputation is their legitimacy.

Some pursue certification programs which have some potential in this regard, but only if said program is widely publicized.

What I find puzzling is that many who seem to feel we "need" some kind of government based farrier recognition have no certification themselves. Logic would dictate that these people would be the first to be "legally excluded" by any "legitimate" criteria.

It almost reminds me of the anti horse slaughter "influential celebrities" who themselves have never given a home to an unwanted horse.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Feb 2011 12:59 #214

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Rick Talbert wrote:
What is the "veterinary suggestion"?
My forging ain't what it oughta be either, I can sympathize. Travis, if your reading this, the one time I put my wife to work at the forge she set her boob on fire, lol. She was then relegated to sweeping. (this was way back before the first little rugrat came along). But doc, why not set your truck up with a forge, if this is your weak area? If by "big footed" horses your refering to drafts, how in the heck are you accomplishing shoeing drafts with a stall jack? I would say your probably right. But I would encourage you to post them anyway. And take whatever feedback positive or negative. Posting pics is comparable to forging amongst your peers. I have been to clinics where the second half of the day was hands on, and after lunch half the group leaves. They don't want to expose any weaknesses and therefore they do not progress. I have more respect for someone who makes an honest effort than I do for someone who never tries. I would say post some pics of your work, post some pics of some work of the farriers you work with that have applied your ideas, case studies, post the rads, post some of the things you do well that is related to farriery such as tenotomies or whatever. These could all be good educational exchanges.
Get er done. :D
I agree the thread has gotten off track, surprise surprise. I can appreciate the original subject of the thread. On that note, I can say that if by restrictions you mean laws to prevent farriers from shoeing horses, these may occur if they have not already occured in some states, but enforcement of these laws is not practical, and would not be taken well by the horse owning public who I think would quickly act to get such a law reversed if it were actually enforced. interesting
M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

I am working on getting the forge on the truck, but the majority of my work does not require its use. The forge actually came from one of my farrier friends who does not use one at all and does an excellent job of trimming and shoeing problem cases for me. I do have this forge in my shop so I can work on my horses with bigger shoeing packages there.

My "big footed" horses are American Saddlebreds.

I do intend to get some pictures posted. I will also look over some files to see what I have in archives.

I will be getting my RF done in the next year most likely. Have passed the written, just need the shoe board and practical.

While the laws would probably not be generally enforced, if they were passed they would greatly increase the already touchy problem of farrier liability. An owner that sued a farrier in a state where the trade was adjudicated the practice of medicine without a license would automatically win the case as there is no defense in a civil suit for committing an illegal act.

Have a look. Hilary Clayton is a member. We will need to pay attention to this. Progress, whether to good or bad result, will continue whether we join in or not.
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jun10/100601h.asp

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Feb 2011 13:06 #215

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tbloomer wrote:
It almost reminds me of the anti horse slaughter "influential celebrities" who themselves have never given a home to an unwanted horse.

Wait until we find out how much these humane groups are going to cost us at the grocery store. The HSUS has claimed they have an agreement with the Smithfield/Luder swine group to stop the practice of using farrowing crates and gestation crates in swine productio by the year 2017. Since it is scientifically proven this is the most efficient way and actually the most humane way to raise these large swine, the drop in productivity or the movement of swine out of the USA and then importing the meat back in will raise our pork prices exponentially. The same is happening in the poultry industry. Congress and all of our government branches do not listen to research, they only listen to the voter base. There is a serious need to educate the USA public on a variety of issues. Agriculture has dropped far behind the humane groups in 'education' of the public.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Feb 2011 13:13 #216

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mwmyersdvm wrote:
I have put on my chaps and got under a It appears that my intention for this thread has been missed. I did not intend for it to be about me. It was intended to get some input on how farriers can best benefit in the future which may be bringing licensure, specialties, and the possibilities of restrictions of the trade. I do not want this for farriers and I know they do not want it to happen to them. It happened to equine dental technicians in North Carolina. However, if everyone sits back to watch the show and does not intercede in the 'reality game' they wil probably not like the unhappy ending.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

As I see it this isn't a problem specific to the horse business. The problem is that we're being smothered by intrusive government.

Developing proposals that might be acceptable to a bunch of freedom hating "progressives" isn't going to help. Vote them out, send them home and the problem is solved.

Most of these states (as well as the federal government) are way beyond broke. Let them tell us we can't go to work. See where that gets them.

Their house of cards is coming apart.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Feb 2011 13:16 #217

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mwmyersdvm wrote:
Wait until we find out how much these humane groups are going to cost us at the grocery store. The HSUS has claimed they have an agreement with the Smithfield/Luder swine group to stop the practice of using farrowing crates and gestation crates in swine productio by the year 2017. Since it is scientifically proven this is the most efficient way and actually the most humane way to raise these large swine, the drop in productivity or the movement of swine out of the USA and then importing the meat back in will raise our pork prices exponentially. The same is happening in the poultry industry. Congress and all of our government branches do not listen to research, they only listen to the voter base. There is a serious need to educate the USA public on a variety of issues. Agriculture has dropped far behind the humane groups in 'education' of the public.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

They haven't been listening to the voter base.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Feb 2011 19:04 #218

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mwmyersdvm wrote:
I have put on my chaps and got under a horse on two occasions. One when a farrier flatly said that a shoe culd not be put on a horse and another when a farrier said that nothing could be done for a horse and I should just nerve the horse. I don't think on those two occasions that I was the one initiating the non-team approach. Perhaps i could have handled the situation a bit mor ediplomatically, but their attitude was far from pleasant and I had asked them their opinion first before I suggested an alternative and then received the "can't be done' or the 'veterinary suggestion'.

I am glad you like to trim and feel you can do a great job. I'm sure you can. I feel my skills at the trim surpass my skills at the forge as I don't do much forging. My veterianry truck isn't rigged to carry a forge so I do my modifications on a stall jack. I have stated that I really do work with farriers and shoe primarily very painful cases which will ultimately be turned over to the owner's farrier of choice. I have a few select horses that I do as they seem to 'click' with my style plus the occasional "big footed" horse that I like to shoe and the farriers in my area do not....................... ............
As for my work exhibition, I will get some photos when I can as I take radiographs and very few photos. To be frank, since those that have asked appear to be a bit on the hostile side, I really don't expect you to be pleased no matter what I choose to post.

I don't add a CF, CJF, or other title behind my ame because I don't have one. I do have an interest in obtaining such in the future, but it doesn't fit into my current schedule. It appears there is considerable discussion on the validity of such titles at times, but I will reserve such judgement until I take the respective test.

It appears that my intention for this thread has been missed. I did not intend for it to be about me. It was intended to get some input on how farriers can best benefit in the future which may be bringing licensure, specialties, and the possibilities of restrictions of the trade. I do not want this for farriers and I know they do not want it to happen to them. It happened to equine dental technicians in North Carolina. However, if everyone sits back to watch the show and does not intercede in the 'reality game' they wil probably not like the unhappy ending.

There is a new specialty veterinary board for "Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation". This could easily move into hoof care since it would be a likely portion of the rehabilitation process for equines. Its very title would exclude farrier participation except at the discretion of the veterinarian. I don't want this to happen.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
.................................let me start be saying if our request for pics seemed hostile...let me assure you on my part it was not ment that way..... mayybe we are misunderstanding one another because I much like you feel as if some of ur post are a bit of looking down ur nose at our trade and our CE practices...its no secret that I feel the cf and cjf may not be what our trade needs...I can show piles of work by cf and cjf alike that is down right shamefull...but I also can show some of the cf work to be damn nice...my point of view on the issue is ine and I have my reasons ...but it is a good start and a effort so although I'm not a fan of it I will defend it...I feel as if ur ideas will be force of things onto our trade...I know that you feel its ur trade also but really its not due to you wanna be known as myers DVM...not Myers cf ..cjf..or even guild...its almost as u dabble in shoeing ....bottom line is you carry trust and afforded the right of a pass to work with horses feet on the sole reason of being a vet...you have said ur self u feel ur farrier work would not stack up very high when it comes to every part of it...and that includes forgeing..but u say you trim very well....that kinda takes us back to what Eric was taking issue with when saying it hard to an over achiever at both..not out of the question but deff not a easy task...but I do commend ur efforts but don't think ur doing us all a favor by trying to make it where a vet is telling a farrier evry move to make under a horse..you make it clear that although you ask for input if a farrier does not agree you do over ride the farrier and its that way with the horse owner also and you know this..I don't doubt your skills or ur passion but not every vet will have the respect for farriers as you say you do.....but help me clear a few things up.....I understand you are listed as horseshoes.com reresident vet....what does this job intell............you said ur shooting for ur guild letters or cert and ur listed as the comissioner of knowledge for the guild but you say you haven't. Took or passed the guild test.....last but not least.... has the guild have a rule change because I was to understand you had to be a full time working farrier only to be a guild ...
Travis Reed.....


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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Feb 2011 19:19 #219

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I meant to say u need to be a full time working farrier to test for the guild was my understanding
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Feb 2011 23:31 #220

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Travis Reed wrote:
I meant to say u need to be a full time working farrier to test for the guild was my understanding
Instead of guessing, why not read the bylaws?

http://guildfarriers.org/wiki/organizing-documents
Tom Bloomer
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Feb 2011 23:40 #221

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Prb because I don't have much intrest in reading the bylaws...
Travis Reed.....


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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 19 Feb 2011 00:07 #222

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mwmyersdvm wrote:

To be frank, since those that have asked appear to be a bit on the hostile side, I really don't expect you to be pleased no matter what I choose to post.


M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

I'm not trying to be hostile. I'm under the impression the farriery you do is of the therapeutic nature. Whether people agree with me or not, I feel that kind of work should be performed by the highest skilled farrier available. Not someone who uses a stall jack because he hasn't gotten around to getting a forge in the truck yet.

I'm not looking to be pleased. I agree and disagree with how people shoe horses all the time. I don't think if matters either way. I would however look to see if what you did appeared to be intentional. If things look intentional there's a pretty good chance the work you do was intended to be that way.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 19 Feb 2011 00:34 #223

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Eric Russell wrote:
I'm not trying to be hostile. I'm under the impression the farriery you do is of the therapeutic nature. Whether people agree with me or not, I feel that kind of work should be performed by the highest skilled farrier available. Not someone who uses a stall jack because he hasn't gotten around to getting a forge in the truck yet.

I'm not looking to be pleased. I agree and disagree with how people shoe horses all the time. I don't think if matters either way. I would however look to see if what you did appeared to be intentional. If things look intentional there's a pretty good chance the work you do was intended to be that way.
IMO...That should about sum it up...it does not matter if one agrees but did the farrier. Do what he intended to do...people have there own way of shoeing..just because someone does not just like I do ...it does not make the job wrong just diff...one can say hey I have tried this and had better luck...this is a sharing of ideas and what CE should be about...its pretty clear when someones work looks like its all over the place and not intended
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 19 Feb 2011 09:57 #224

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Travis Reed wrote:
Prb because I don't have much intrest in reading the bylaws...
Your deliberate choice to keep an uninformed opinion is duly noted. ;)
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 19 Feb 2011 20:59 #225

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Mike Ferrara wrote:
They haven't been listening to the voter base.

Unfortunately they have. The voter base hears a lot more 'warm and fuzzy' reports from the humane organizations than they do from agriculture representatives. They don't understand how their food is produced and the 'horror stories' from these groups have decidedly slanted their view on the process.

When the actual data was presented to a Congressional committe shwoing that confinement rearing of chickens was less stressful on the birds than free range rearing them, the comittee fully agreed with the data. However, they showed the researchers that their voter base was in favor of free ranging so the data was not material to the case, their votes to keep them in office was more important.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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