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TOPIC: AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act

RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 17 Feb 2011 01:14 #196

  • Rick Talbert
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reillyshoe wrote:
That is very nice work, but I would prefer Smitty's horseshoeing coupled with Dean Richardson's veterinary work (no offense to the person who did this work).

If I could figure out how to resize photos so they would load on this site, then I could post a few more that I think would be difficult to distinguish from Smitty's honestly. All handmades.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 17 Feb 2011 01:20 #197

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Don't short change the veterinary contribution Rick. It takes years to become proficient at learning which blocks to apply when and where, and how to interpret the results. When to send the horse in for radiographs, or when MR is preferable to a nuclear scan or a CT...the skills in this field require as much time as farriery to become an expert. On the surface, one might not recognize this (and that is my point in reverse).
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 17 Feb 2011 01:23 #198

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And Rick, Please don't use the podiatry term to suggest a vet/farrier combo- these are different professions. Call it something different, like a "vet with an interest in hooves".
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 17 Feb 2011 01:28 #199

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reillyshoe wrote:
And Rick, Please don't use the podiatry term to suggest a vet/farrier combo- these are different professions. Call it something different, like a "vet with an interest in hooves".

:D I can see the term ruffles your feathers. I see it used more often lately. How would you define an equine podiatrist?
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 17 Feb 2011 01:32 #200

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I would define an equine podiatrist as a farrier. My courses at Penn are entitled "podology", which is essentially the same thing as podiatry (albeit as an older, out of use, European word).
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 17 Feb 2011 01:34 #201

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reillyshoe wrote:
I would define an equine podiatrist as a farrier. My courses at Penn are entitled "podology", which is essentially the same thing as podiatry (albeit as an older, out of use, European word).

I had a feeling you were going to say that, and I had a feeling I would agree :D. I thought I was being rather diplomatic and inclusive by my prior posts, but I tend to agree with you.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 17 Feb 2011 02:00 #202

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A veterinarian on occasion will tell an owner that I have a "podiatry practice", while I have never reffered to my shoeing horses in this manner (even if I think I do more than my share of cripples), I must admit it always brings a smirk to my face. But maybe we all like to sound more important, but humility binds us, lol. Custodian rather than janitor, waste management worker opposed to trash man. Same thing I guess. :) But I wonder then what is in a word that causes this reaction. Most farriers who are worth their salt don't have to bother calling themselves a bloviated term such as podiatrist. But really, why should we not? I don't see anything wrong with the word farrier, but what if a good farrier wanted to specialize or differentiate his practice from shoeing sound horses, to seeking to work with only problem hooves rather than big barns. If we don't use it the vets will claim it and change the laws to make sure we don't :rolleyes:
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 17 Feb 2011 02:16 #203

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A couple of months ago I had a vet try to refer a case to me, however the insurance company's vet suggested they refer the case to an equine podiatrist. The horse did come in to New Bolton, but the event made me aware of the potential for problems- if insurance companies are suggesting owners find a "podiatrist", without a clear definition of what a podiatrist is- then what direction is horseshoeing headed?

Like yourself, I have ignored the term in the past, but I now pay more attention to how the term is used and what the implications might be. Insurance companies represent big business, and their policies can affect the farrier business in the future.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 17 Feb 2011 02:34 #204

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Eric Russell wrote:
Dr. Myers, being a D.V.M. you are awarded a little bit of a pass on these forums. If a farrier came to this site and started speaking of the "magic" he's performed under a horse he would be hammered!

When you start speaking of farriery, especially magic that has been performed by you, I think that pass comes to an end.

Do you have pics to show your farrier work? I personally have an extremely difficult time believing someone actually excels in both professions.

Just trying to lighten the conversation. When I work with a farrier he generally does the majority of the work under the horse. I often assist in the trim as he works the anvil and forge which saves time and his back. The term "magic" may be a button for some so I will try to not include it as a reference. I only use it here to allude to my preference to work with good farriers and that we can help horses with our combined skills, thus the 'magic' for the horse's benefit.

One does not have to be limited to a single area of any profession or limited to one profession. In the interest of maintaining the good will of this thread I will not include other areas that I have a good degree of proficiency as well.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 17 Feb 2011 03:01 #205

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reillyshoe wrote:
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you seem to be suggesting that as self titled equine podiatrist your skill in surgery exceeds that a board certified specialist, at least as it applies to the distal limb. It seems your skill in imaging of the distal limb exceed that of a radiologist as it applies to the distal limb. It seems that you are of the opinion that your skill in the application of orthotics exceeds the skill of a farrier. All of this is interesting, as people dedicate years to becoming proficient in very specific areas or training.
Farrier theory is of no use if your hands are not trained to translate theory to the hoof. I will never be as good as I would like to be in this regard, no matter how much I practice. I have noticed the same occurs with surgery- knowing what to do and the ability to preform it perfectly are very different things. I mentioned Smitty's work because I appreciate the manual perfection in his work. The same could be said for Craig Trnka. I have no doubt that I would be a better clinician if I had the same skill of these experts. Conversely, I would humbly suggest that I might apply a better glue on shoe than either of these individuals (no offense, Smitty). I recognize that we cannot hone our skills to that of an expert in so many areas, even with regard to farriery.

A radiologist devotes years to imaging techniques. As you mentioned venograms, I will point out that I do not think there are studies assessing the repeatability of this procedure in the equine digit. Is there value in back-filling the circulation system to see what is going on? What is your experience with CT or MR evaluation of the lamintic hoof? I would suggest that preforming a venogram is not a technically challenging procedure. I would suggest that if a radiologist does not utilize this procedure, then perhaps their study of the subject supports their decision (the same argument would apply towards a DDFT tenotomy, which is a very simple surgery).

My point remains the same- these are all areas of specialized training, and while not perfect, should be recognized as such for their contribution to the well being of the horse. Would you clarify your comment about the role of farriers, do you envision the farrier as a technician for the veterinarian? From my biased perspective, I consider the working arrangement between veterinarians and farriers to be analogous to that of a human physician and a human podiatrist- separate occupations working next to each other, without either profession subservient to the other.

I have not maintained that I title myself as a podiatrist since no such specialty exists at this time. I do have more experience in tenotomies and lower limb surgeries than some surgeons as I do more of them than they do. This is not to detract from their board certification, but as you well know about your own profession's certification procedures, even the master farriers have their own areas of expertise. I love working with American Saddlebred show horses, but I do not think a farrier that does not wish to do them is below me by any means. I work with a variety of problem horses from the severely laminitic to the subtle lameness and do farily well in assisting these horses. As to surgery, I have worked with a number of show barns so my surgeries were always done with care for cosmesis so even my check ligament desmotomies on aged horses tend to look pretty good when healed. I have referred a case or two and not had quite such a good outcome from a boarded surgeon. Just not his artistic area.

CT is utilized more for bone than soft tissue so is not a good meduim for laminitis. MRI may be useful, but is not within the realm of most clientele' to use and certainly not for repeated studies which do need to be accomplished during the laminitic horse's rehabilitation process. Imaging modalities all have their positive and negative attributes as well as their specific target tissues and limitations. I have a great respect for radiologists, but they also have their own areas of expertise, some prefer small animals and some equine, but not many see large numbers of equine digits since far more hoof radiograohs are taken out in the field than in veterinary hospitals. Venography is an assist and not an all inclusive diagnostic modality. It is not technically difficult, but neither is shaping a shoe, but the science and art of the procedure makes it reach its most useful application. I am certain you can glue on a shoe far better than I, but I can get the job done when needed and I have access to several farriers that can accomplish this as well.

Those who know me (and anyone should guess from my starting this thread) that I view farriers as important colleagues and work side by side giving them medical diagnostic and therapeutic information as they add in their biomechanical knowledge and therapeutics from their perspective. I do have knowledge of farrier tools, biomechanics and some skill in the application of farriery and I think that makes it easier for me to communicate which is helpful to the case.

My point is that the input of a veterinarian with a special interest in the hoof should be considered in those cases involving the hoof, along with any other parties which can assist, in order for the case to reach its best conclusion.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 17 Feb 2011 03:17 #206

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reillyshoe wrote:
Who knows Rick, perhaps you might be a professional athlete is you had picked one sport and concentrated your efforts on that discipline...


Just one more thought, then I will shut up, because I think I pretty much agree with you. But had I not played 4 sports and listenned to that advice I would have missed out on a lot of good fun, and good experiences. Then odds are I still wouldn't have made it to the pros. And I would have missed out. If a fellow wants to be a farrier and a vet, or a vet and an astronaut, or a farrier and a ice cream truck driver, life is too short not to do whatever makes you happy. One doesn't have to be the best farrier and best vet. Maybe a fellow is content being a great farrier and an average vet, or an average farrier and a great vet. But either way, he set goals and attained them and I can't see anything wrong with that, as long as a fellow's ego is on par with his abilities.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 17 Feb 2011 23:56 #207

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mwmyersdvm wrote:
Just trying to lighten the conversation. When I work with a farrier he generally does the majority of the work under the horse. I often assist in the trim as he works the anvil and forge which saves time and his back. The term "magic" may be a button for some so I will try to not include it as a reference. I only use it here to allude to my preference to work with good farriers and that we can help horses with our combined skills, thus the 'magic' for the horse's benefit.

One does not have to be limited to a single area of any profession or limited to one profession. In the interest of maintaining the good will of this thread I will not include other areas that I have a good degree of proficiency as well.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

When I find myself in another farriers sand box he tends to put me at the forge...not to save my back..lol.. its because he th inks that's where not much can go wrong...when I take my better half with me to work...quess where she gets put to work..at the forge..why because3 I think I'm better than her under the horse...who do you think ur kiding doc??... and I have ask before if your so high on CE..why do you not display ur cf..cjf..or the one they offer at the cassey school...you stated in another thread that if a farrier does not wanna follow ur lead ...you will just grab ur chaps and do it urself..now ur talking of a team...but I just got a feeling the team is far from what ur after...it sounds to me you just need a farrier to be on board with what u wanna do so when the time comes you will have him/her to take over the case because its not cost effective for you to keep a plain ol shoeing business going...thus why you have come up with a fancy catch name... we have asked for pic 3x now ...I wann see some of this voodoo you got going
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Feb 2011 03:39 #208

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Rick Talbert wrote:
Just one more thought, then I will shut up, because I think I pretty much agree with you. But had I not played 4 sports and listenned to that advice I would have missed out on a lot of good fun, and good experiences. Then odds are I still wouldn't have made it to the pros. And I would have missed out. If a fellow wants to be a farrier and a vet, or a vet and an astronaut, or a farrier and a ice cream truck driver, life is too short not to do whatever makes you happy. One doesn't have to be the best farrier and best vet. Maybe a fellow is content being a great farrier and an average vet, or an average farrier and a great vet. But either way, he set goals and attained them and I can't see anything wrong with that, as long as a fellow's ego is on par with his abilities.

Hey, I'm all for doing what makes you happy- but don't tell me this is the best thing going without some substantiating evidence. I played basketball tonight and hockey on Tuesday night- but my goal is not to become the best I could be. If it was my goal to be the best hockey player I could be, I would be playing every day (and night). Something tells me that DHelton's schedule at the forge is all day every day (and evening), along with a bunch of other farriers. That specific passion is what makes them so good.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Feb 2011 04:38 #209

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Travis Reed wrote:
When I find myself in another farriers sand box he tends to put me at the forge...not to save my back..lol.. its because he th inks that's where not much can go wrong...when I take my better half with me to work...quess where she gets put to work..at the forge..why because3 I think I'm better than her under the horse...who do you think ur kiding doc??... and I have ask before if your so high on CE..why do you not display ur cf..cjf..or the one they offer at the cassey school...you stated in another thread that if a farrier does not wanna follow ur lead ...you will just grab ur chaps and do it urself..now ur talking of a team...but I just got a feeling the team is far from what ur after...it sounds to me you just need a farrier to be on board with what u wanna do so when the time comes you will have him/her to take over the case because its not cost effective for you to keep a plain ol shoeing business going...thus why you have come up with a fancy catch name... we have asked for pic 3x now ...I wann see some of this voodoo you got going

I have put on my chaps and got under a horse on two occasions. One when a farrier flatly said that a shoe culd not be put on a horse and another when a farrier said that nothing could be done for a horse and I should just nerve the horse. I don't think on those two occasions that I was the one initiating the non-team approach. Perhaps i could have handled the situation a bit mor ediplomatically, but their attitude was far from pleasant and I had asked them their opinion first before I suggested an alternative and then received the "can't be done' or the 'veterinary suggestion'.

I am glad you like to trim and feel you can do a great job. I'm sure you can. I feel my skills at the trim surpass my skills at the forge as I don't do much forging. My veterianry truck isn't rigged to carry a forge so I do my modifications on a stall jack. I have stated that I really do work with farriers and shoe primarily very painful cases which will ultimately be turned over to the owner's farrier of choice. I have a few select horses that I do as they seem to 'click' with my style plus the occasional "big footed" horse that I like to shoe and the farriers in my area do not.

As for my work exhibition, I will get some photos when I can as I take radiographs and very few photos. To be frank, since those that have asked appear to be a bit on the hostile side, I really don't expect you to be pleased no matter what I choose to post.

I don't add a CF, CJF, or other title behind my ame because I don't have one. I do have an interest in obtaining such in the future, but it doesn't fit into my current schedule. It appears there is considerable discussion on the validity of such titles at times, but I will reserve such judgement until I take the respective test.

It appears that my intention for this thread has been missed. I did not intend for it to be about me. It was intended to get some input on how farriers can best benefit in the future which may be bringing licensure, specialties, and the possibilities of restrictions of the trade. I do not want this for farriers and I know they do not want it to happen to them. It happened to equine dental technicians in North Carolina. However, if everyone sits back to watch the show and does not intercede in the 'reality game' they wil probably not like the unhappy ending.

There is a new specialty veterinary board for "Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation". This could easily move into hoof care since it would be a likely portion of the rehabilitation process for equines. Its very title would exclude farrier participation except at the discretion of the veterinarian. I don't want this to happen.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Feb 2011 04:44 #210

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reillyshoe wrote:
A couple of months ago I had a vet try to refer a case to me, however the insurance company's vet suggested they refer the case to an equine podiatrist. The horse did come in to New Bolton, but the event made me aware of the potential for problems- if insurance companies are suggesting owners find a "podiatrist", without a clear definition of what a podiatrist is- then what direction is horseshoeing headed?

Like yourself, I have ignored the term in the past, but I now pay more attention to how the term is used and what the implications might be. Insurance companies represent big business, and their policies can affect the farrier business in the future.

Thank you, Pat, for that example and insight. Can we proceed with the spirit of this forum and get some constructive ideas going? We really need to determine how this can be accomplished. Farriers need to bring this to the attention to 'farrier friendly' veterinarians they know and get a group on board.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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