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TOPIC: AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act

RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Jan 2011 03:01 #16

  • reillyshoe
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Positioning the breakover point at a specific location, such as 1/4 inch in front of P3 might be considered a landmark (like trimming to a straight hoof-pastern axis), so taking radiographs might not necessitate a diagnosis. The difference might be how things are stated by the (non-veterinarian) person taking the films.
P
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Jan 2011 03:32 #17

  • lonestar
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reillyshoe wrote:
Positioning the breakover point at a specific location, such as 1/4 inch in front of P3 might be considered a landmark (like trimming to a straight hoof-pastern axis), so taking radiographs might not necessitate a diagnosis. The difference might be how things are stated by the (non-veterinarian) person taking the films.

Understood, but to be clear, depending on the state, it is perfectly legal to own and operate an xray machine and not be a veterinarian or a tech/associate ?
Chris Schaeffner
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Jan 2011 03:36 #18

  • reillyshoe
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I do know of a farrier who owns a radiology system, so I do think it is possible.
P
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Jan 2011 05:18 #19

  • westtxshoer
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I don't see why it would be a problem for a farrier to own and use a machine to take xrays or anything else as long as the machine is used for the purpose to trim and/or shoe the horse only.
RJ Little
Merkel, Texas
817-341-9857

"I ain't askin' nobody for nuthin', if I can't get it on my own." - Charlie Daniels
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Jan 2011 13:41 #20

  • George Geist
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lonestar wrote:
I have a question along the line of this topic. Here at my farm in NJ a trimmer was visiting regularly for two clients.On several occasions the trimmer would show up with an xray machine and do a full set of pictures on the horses she was trimming. Presumably use the pictures to help her practice and to my knowledge charge for them...... Allowed ?
No,
In NJ is illegal without a license. I'd recommend dropping a dime on them.
George
For another fun place to play........
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Jan 2011 15:12 #21

  • Travis Reed
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I think it should be ok for a trimmer or farrier to own a radiograph as long as a diagnosis is not being gave out...also that the one running it has went thru proper steps of safety on using it ... but this is what I see would happen... you shot the shots and see something and tell the client... hey what I see here worrys me and I think you should get your vet out for some radiographs...then client starts in on well what did ya see ...then farrier or trimmer says well I can't give a diagnosis but looks like a chip bone at the P3...then client runs to vet clinic tells them the need to come out cause farrier took radiographs and found a bone chip.. now the ball is rolling and vet is not real happy about farrier xing over in the vet area.. then vet says I will shot some radiographs to see what's going on and client says well I have already paid for the farriers radiographs so can we just use them and not take new ones... now you got a ticked off vet cause here he sits with a radiograph he needs to make money by using..and client is ****ed cause vet refuse to use farrier xrays.. client thinks it unfair of vet not to use them and client fires vet ...horse pays the price when all said and done and vet will never give out farriers name...kinda see where this is going..I had checked on a radiogaph before and for what a farrier would need the price of a used one is very doable but after talking with a vet friend she just did not give me a good vibe about it and she is a dear friend and I guessed if she was not happy about the idea I'm sure the other vets in the area would deff no go for a farrier doing radiographs...I found asking client to get shots just for a ref point builds trust with what vet they happen to use and starts a good relationship with the vet by meeting them out there and helping and letting the vet know this xrays are just to use as ref point for shoeing and a base line in the future if a lamness comes up..
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Jan 2011 19:32 #22

  • mwmyersdvm
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There are usually radiation safety boards of some type in each state. They inspect the units and renew the licensing of each unit every two to five years depending on the state. In Virginia, it is every three years. There are very specific guidlelines for keeping radiographs in your record system so I would say that owning an xray unit is generally treading in gray areas of the law and one should proceed quite cautiously. Even if the individual is fully within the law, the owner can get the perception that the pathology is being monitored and if anything goes awry and a veterinarian is not involved, a lawsuit will ensue and a farrier sporting an xray unit certainly looks like some yummy personal injury attorney fodder in most circles.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Jan 2011 19:37 #23

  • tbloomer
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
I wonder if the AVMA would get upset if we asked them to voluntarily exclude themselves from the practice of farriery, other than at the order of, or when supervised by, a farrier. :)
I commented in this section, but it wasn't voluntary on the part of vets, it was mandatory.

If the AVMA wants to ignore the 14th amendment and create special rights and privileges to protect the business interest of vets, then we farriers ought to be able to protect our turf as well.

The preamble - "This statute is enacted as an exercise of the powers of the state to promote the public health, safety, and welfare by ensuring the delivery of competent veterinary medical care."

My comments in this section had to do with ANYTHING in a vet practice act that goes beyond health, safety, and welfare of CITIZENS, is either creating special rights and privileges just for vets, restricting the liberty of citizens to do with their property as they see fit, or creating "rights" for animals to have the same protections as humans, or perhaps the vets are takin ownership over all animals?
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 18 Jan 2011 19:39 #24

  • mwmyersdvm
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
I wonder if the AVMA would get upset if we asked them to voluntarily exclude themselves from the practice of farriery, other than at the order of, or when supervised by, a farrier. :)

I can fully understand where you are coming from, although I'm afraid I won't comply with that request myself :)

However, I would be cautious if you approach that idea seriously as veterinarians are licensed in all states (and many countries) and farriers are not (in most states) so that is a road no one seems to want to travel just yet.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 19 Jan 2011 01:43 #25

  • lonestar
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One scenario we were faced with was; On one visit the trimmer was taking some pictures while another client was grooming a horse at the end of the aisle. That client happened to be pregnant and afterward was wondering if there was cause for concern even if she was at the opposite end of the aisle ? Honestly how the heck would I know but to be on the safe side we assumed yes.
Chris Schaeffner
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 19 Jan 2011 01:45 #26

  • reillyshoe
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mwmyersdvm wrote:
There are usually radiation safety boards of some type in each state. They inspect the units and renew the licensing of each unit every two to five years depending on the state. In Virginia, it is every three years. There are very specific guidlelines for keeping radiographs in your record system so I would say that owning an xray unit is generally treading in gray areas of the law and one should proceed quite cautiously. Even if the individual is fully within the law, the owner can get the perception that the pathology is being monitored and if anything goes awry and a veterinarian is not involved, a lawsuit will ensue and a farrier sporting an xray unit certainly looks like some yummy personal injury attorney fodder in most circles.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.


I don't know Dr. Myer's veterinary or shoeing practice, so this is not a comment on his personal comment. Many veterinarians find radiographs to be of value when considering hoof balance. The question is why a veterinarian would be be opposed to a farrier utilizing this technology if the result is a better product for the horse. One might think this would be viewed as a positive development for the equine community.

As a separate (but not unrelated) topic, some veterinarians advocate utilizing technicians to make road calls taking hoof films. This process, when not requiring sedation, is relatively non invasive (xrays are invasive, but do not constitute a health risk in reasonable usage). So, Dr. Myers, how would you react to a client handing you a disk with radiographs on it taken by the farrier? You could charge a fee, the farrier could charge for the rads and for the cost of the equipment, and the farrier is limiting liability by recruiting a veterinary opinion, and the farrier care is based on internal reference points.
P
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 19 Jan 2011 06:42 #27

  • 13puppet
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Equine Dentistry is legal in TX and OK as of november 11, 2010.
Although it states lay dentist have to stay above the gum line and can not perform extraction. And then there is an issue with sedating the horse.....but that's another story.
Bo Crotta - Equine Specialist
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 20 Jan 2011 01:02 #28

  • mwmyersdvm
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reillyshoe wrote:
I don't know Dr. Meyer's veterinary or shoeing practice, so this is not a comment on his personal comment. Many veterinarians find radiographs to be of value when considering hoof balance. The question is why a veterinarian would be be opposed to a farrier utilizing this technology if the result is a better product for the horse. One might think this would be viewed as a positive development for the equine community.

As a separate (but not unrelated) topic, some veterinarians advocate utilizing technicians to make road calls taking hoof films. This process, when not requiring sedation, is relatively non invasive (xrays are invasive, but do not constitute a health risk in reasonable usage). So, Dr. Meyers, how would you react to a client handing you a disk with radiographs on it taken by the farrier? You could charge a fee, the farrier could charge for the rads and for the cost of the equipment, and the farrier is limiting liability by recruiting a veterinary opinion, and the farrier care is based on internal reference points.

Actually, I have already discussed the possibility of employing some of the farrriers I work with as technicians such that I would own and maintain the registry of the equipment and they could take the images they need and we can discuss the results. Unfortunately the new act may stop that idea since they will not be licensed technicians. There are still a lot of gray areas in the proposed act. I would not mind discussing radiographs with a farrier that could take a good image in the least as my current technicians can take images better then most of the veterinarian images I have seen, particularly for hoof parameters useful to a farrier. That said, the images had best be a good set or the farrier will have to listen to my critique of his technique and not be able to rely on his farrier schooling and experience to debate the point :)

I definitely agree that radiographs would be a positive development for farrier use. It is often difficult to get veterinarians to take images for this purpose as many don't understand the mechanics well enough to be critical of the correct positioning and resort to views that are standardized for diagnostic purposes only.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 20 Jan 2011 01:42 #29

  • reillyshoe
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Employing farriers as your technician is one thing, but having the farrier charge for the service and utilize a veterinarian as a consultant might be considered an entirely different set of circumstances to many veterinarians (ironically, the end product might be the same, if the financial pathway a bit different).
In this day of technology, it would be entirely possible for a farrier to employ a radiologist on a consulting basis and email images to anyone in the world for an instant expert opinion.

As far as assessing radiographic technique, I would suggest that not all veterinarians are equally. I have also found that a veterinarian is more likely take offense at a critique of their radiographic technique from a farrier than a farrier is to take offense at a veterinary technique of their shoeing (and THAT is saying something!).
P
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RE:AVMA Model Veterinary Practice Act 20 Jan 2011 17:04 #30

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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mwmyersdvm in gray

I can fully understand where you are coming from, although I'm afraid I won't comply with that request myself :)

However, I would be cautious if you approach that idea seriously as veterinarians are licensed in all states (and many countries) and farriers are not (in most states) so that is a road no one seems to want to travel just yet.


M. W. Myers, D.V.M
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Doc, I'm on record as being against farrier licensing, but you've just made the best argument FOR farrier licensing I've ever seen. The idea that a newly minted veterinarian, who has, at most, three hours of theory and zero practical experience, is somehow more capable than an experienced farrier when it comes to rendering the correct mechanical treatment for any pathology south of fetlock is laughably illogical and obviously specious.

But, that's the law.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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