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TOPIC: NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy

RE:NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy 03 Jan 2011 18:51 #16

Mr. Ferrara: "Yes. Why am I all of a sudden responsible for educating the horse owning public? If they want a trim or some shoes, they can call...or not."

Mr Ferrara I never said you were responsible for educating the owner however someone has to do it. As i pointed out that most of the "New owners" are quite apathetic. I myself would think that one of the Farrier organizations would do something to educate the owner. Considering todays marketing standards and the fact that people in general have a tendency to latch onto fads that are well promoted (I.E. our current resident in the White House) it would seem to me that it is time that we as Farriers started explaining to the public what we do and why we do it. It was just a generalized observation.

Mr Spear:"My "slickest " form of marketing is to quietly let the work speak for itself. What problem do you have with ELPO?"

I stand corrected my statement was unfortunatley broad based on the "Slick advertising" I have never seen any advertising for the ALPO project.
However I do know that since the fad of NB has moved into the areas I service that my pathological work has increased by 20%, for that I am thankfull and yes that does tell me the work speaks for itself and not quietly.
The advertising I was refering to came out of Dr. Bruce Nooks outfit in St. Louis Dr. Nooks is a Dr. of physiology and as far as I know has never shod a horse, yet he sells himself as an "au natural" healer and expert in founder.
My problems with many of the barefoot NB and other protocols out there is the folks that are promoting it like a religious zealot's on a jihad, as the only way or the only cure for every horses problem. When frankly my experience with that crowd puts them right up there with Lite Brite Therapy and the Hoof Plate. Once again I am only going by my personal observations.
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RE:NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy 03 Jan 2011 22:15 #17

  • mwmyersdvm
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Unfortunately, the work won't speak for itself if the public doesn't know the difference between good work and bad work. Horses have a marvelous way of compensating adequately so as not to alarm owners and many trainers with their underlying problems. Thus owners and trainers look for the least expensive practitioner in the area and excuse many of the shortcomings as the horse is 'adequately' done. Veterinarians are in the same boat. Many horse owners look for "KMart Vets" or "McVets" (if you prefer) as they think a veterinarian is a veterinarian and all have the same capabilities. On the pricey end of the spectrum, there are veterinarians in my area that have absolutely no clue how to trim or shoe a horse and are touted as the "best of the best of the best" in lameness and charge high prices for it. They were in the right place at the right time, but don't take the responsibility to make sure they truly know what the horse needs. It is tough in the trenches at times as we all know.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.
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RE:NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy 04 Jan 2011 00:10 #18

  • Rick Burten
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Jon D Sawyer wrote:
I stand corrected my statement was unfortunatley broad based on the "Slick advertising" I have never seen any advertising for the ALPO project.
Your credibility might take a leap forward if you got it right. Its ELPO, not ALPO and its an organization not a 'project'. :rolleyes:
However I do know that since the fad of NB has moved into the areas I service that my pathological work has increased by 20%,
ate to be the one to break the news to you but it is not a fad, anymore than blunt toes, set back shoes, etc ad naseum are fads....... And any protocol implemented incorrectly will cause problems. Perhaps yopu weren't around when Burney Chapman first re-introduced the heart bar shoe as a treatment protocol for founder. I was, and I remember how the shoe and its application got a bad rap because of the myriad number of farriers, horseshoers , iron hangers and other pretenders to the throne who failed to learn how to do the job correctly and the resultant disasters that occurred and to some extent, still occur. Its interesting how that [to some] fad is also still around in in productive used yet today. ;)
My problems with many of the barefoot NB and other protocols out there is the folks that are promoting it like a religious zealot's on a jihad, as the only way or the only cure for every horses problem.
Who is, today, promoting NB as the 'do all, be all, end all' of proper hoof care?
As a POI, are the protocols promoted by NB completely different than the protocols you use in your daily work? If so, in which areas?

What is your personal experience with the use of the Nolan Hoof Plate? Have you ever done anything similar but with a different set of orthotics?

How often do you use glue-on shoes, hoof casting materials, polymer based shoes, etc and what is your opinion of them and those who promote their use?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy 04 Jan 2011 02:05 #19

  • chad rice
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Rick Burten wrote:
Your credibility might take a leap forward if you got it right. Its ELPO, not ALPO and its an organization not a 'project'. :rolleyes:

No, its ALPO, and it ain't an organization, its dog food:cool:
Chad Rice, CF
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RE:NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy 04 Jan 2011 03:03 #20

Dr Myers: “Unfortunately, the work won't speak for itself if the public doesn't know the difference between good work and bad work.”

Dr. Myers you make an excellent point here, if the consumer isn’t educated how can they judge? I know customers who will pour over literature, compare companies read consumer reports etc when it comes to purchasing a new vehicle but will not read a simple handout on hoof care.
At the same time what is to be expected when the customer is confronted with someone whether they be a Vet or Farrier that try’s to intimidate, bully or call into question the credibility of others, to feed his own ego?, You know kind of like Rick’s feeble attempts to derail an otherwise decent conversation. If the customer has no decent knowledge base to use how can we expect the customer to separate this type of B.S. from solid fact? That as a matter of course just adds to the confusion of the customer, who is already been overwhelmed with bad information.


Mr. Rice I couldnt agree with you more ELPO ALPO whats the difference?
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RE:NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy 04 Jan 2011 11:42 #21

  • tbloomer
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The ALPO Project does exist . . . to study Saturn's rings.

http://www.alpo-astronomy.org/djalpo/

Now even astronomers are horseshoeing experts. :eek:
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy 04 Jan 2011 12:31 #22

Rick Burten wrote:
Who is, today, promoting NB as the 'do all, be all, end all' of proper hoof care?

Rick, it may be just my unique experience, but 3 of the 4 NB farriers I personally know promote it as the 'do all, be all end all' of proper hoof care.

You are more the exception than the rule in this regard.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy 04 Jan 2011 13:26 #23

  • tbloomer
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Jon D Sawyer wrote:
If the customer has no decent knowledge base to use how can we expect the customer to separate this type of B.S. from solid fact?
The customer knows that the vet said, "Tell your farrier to shorten the toe and put a Natural Balance shoe on the horse."

http://horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13331

If the horse gets better, kudos to the vet.

If the horse doesn't get better, it's the farrier's fault. AND, if it's a Natural Balance shoe, the farrier can blame the shoe and everything associated with the shoe!!! :D

Following is an example of how people's perceptions work - This is a fictional scenario I've constructed from multiple "experiences" in order to illustrate a point.
A vet (part of a large multi-vet practice) requests NB shoes on a horse that was barefoot and has beaten itself tender on hard dry ground.

I show the vet a "substitute appliance," the Kerckhaert Classic Roller . . . the horse improves dramatically as a result of the "shoes." (Would have improved just as much with an SX8 and a rolled toe or just about any well fit keg shoe.) But all the vet got was, result of the "shoes." Now the vet is telling every farrier to use a Classic Roller. :rolleyes: . . . result of the "shoes."

What the vet is NOT THINKING is Tom Bloomer improved the horse. Because all Tom Bloomer did was nail on some "Kerckhaert Classic Rollers." Anybody can do that. "Must be them special shoes."

This "perception" will not change without some critical thinking on the part of the vet, something very few people take time to do. Since all of the horses that I work on who also use this vet's practice are sound and have always been sound in my care, the vet does not have the perception that I work on lame horses . . . compared to plenty of other farriers intersecting the vet's custom . . . always working on lame horses and always using some fancy gadget, pad, glue, hoof packing, etc. to help ol' dobbin get along.

So, the thought would never occur to the vet in passing, "Why doesn't Tom need all that fancy gadgetry to keep his horses sound?" Instead the vet's perception is, "Tom doesn't work on lame horses."

It's the gadgets and gizmos that get people's attention because in general, folks are just too busy letting the bold typeface do their thinking and not reading the fine print.

Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy 04 Jan 2011 17:31 #24

Great post Tom.

Regards
Rick Shepherd

Although we know what we believe, we may only believe what we know. Dr William Moyers
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RE:NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy 04 Jan 2011 18:50 #25

Mr. Shepherd, your post is exactly what I have run into, I actually met a lady from CO. that was visiting a barn, where some of my customers board there horses, and hearing her rant and rave about the poor shoeing and trimming protocols and how these horses were all on the verge of being the equivalent to neglected horses, and how NB and foot mapping could solve the hoof problems of the world. I was about too break my rule of never hitting a woman. The worst part was that she loved to talk had a good vocabulary and was able to hold the ear of many of the barns clientele while she spread fear through her horror stories of horses in pain and near death because of the “archaic methods” that were being used on these horses. This has been my experience with most of the people who believe and tout the NB and other protocols as cure alls. Which proves that regardless of how well spoken a person is the empty barrel still makes the most noise.

Mr. Bloomer, excellent scenario and I really enjoyed reading some of the articles about Saturn and its rings thanks for the link to that website.
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RE:NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy 04 Jan 2011 20:41 #26

  • Jay Mickle
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tbloomer wrote:
This "perception" will not change without some critical thinking on the part of the vet, something very few people take time to do.

"the spread of secondary and latterly tertiary education has created a large population of people, often with well-developed literary and scholarly tastes, who have been educated far beyond their capacity to undertake analytical thought."
— Sir Peter Medawar
Jay Mickle
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RE:NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy 04 Jan 2011 21:58 #27

  • Rick Burten
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Western Hill Forge wrote:
Rick, it may be just my unique experience, but 3 of the 4 NB farriers I personally know promote it as the 'do all, be all end all' of proper hoof care.
That's too bad for if there were only one answer/one way to do it, we'd all be doing it that way and Gene & co. would be very very wealthy. In reality, much of what I have learned with regard to the NB trimming protocols is stuff that I was long ago taught/learned. Not as codified, but there nonetheless. Its interesting to me that so many who disparage NB actually employ its tenants,often unwittingly, though they call them by different names. Balancing the foot/shoe around the COR/COA, hoof proportions of 50:50 or 60:40 etc based on the widest part of the hoof, frog-ground engagement, breakover location, setting shoes back off the toe, combinations of blunt toes, rolled toes, rockered toes, set back shoes, recognizing differences betweeen front and back feet and their purpose and function, etc ad infinatum.
You are more the exception than the rule in this regard.
I sincerely hope that time will prove this to be an inaccurate assessment.

As a POI, how many of those farriers you mentioned have actually been through and successfully completed the NB certification courses? I ask because never during the courses that I took was NB ever touted to the students as the be all, do all and/or end all for hoof care. In fact, I don't remember ever hearing Gene make such a statement when he lectures or is asked about the NB approach.

Have you, individualy or as the collective, ever attended a conference, seminar, meeting, or even just worked with someone else, where some new method, approach, concept, appliance that really resonated with you? Such that when you got home you started touting it as the new best way to deal with "X,Y,Z". And then you start using the method/appliance, at least for a time, almost to the exclusion of all else? So it is I think with many of those who are touting NB as the "second coming". We saw/see it in the barefoot movement and we saw/see it amongst farriers too. For me, NB is a tool, like all the other tools I have in my kit which has taken me a lifetime to acquire. IMNTBCHO, knowing when, and how and where to use those tools(physical and otherwise) and why, is what elevates us up out of the gutter and makes us professionals
Regards
To you too.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy 04 Jan 2011 22:01 #28

  • tbloomer
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I can find Duckett's Dot on Google Maps . . . right over the kitchen sink.

Tom Bloomer
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302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy 04 Jan 2011 22:03 #29

  • Rick Burten
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Jon D Sawyer wrote:
This has been my experience with most of the people who believe and tout the NB and other protocols as cure alls.
Are we to take from this that you personally have no protocol(s) that you tout and routinely choose as your first choice?
Which proves that regardless of how well spoken a person is the empty barrel still makes the most noise.
Sounds like you've some experience with this...........:o :)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:NEHRF Equine Flexion Therapy 04 Jan 2011 22:10 #30

  • tbloomer
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Rick Burten wrote:
Have you, individualy or as the collective, ever attended a conference, seminar, meeting, or even just worked with someone else, where some new method, approach, concept, appliance that really resonated with you? Such that when you got home you started touting it as the new best way to deal with "X,Y,Z".
YES!!! I've been getting great results with the Cartesian Coordinate System ever since I learned it over 40 years ago. :D

. . . sorry, couldn't resist.
Tom Bloomer
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302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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