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TOPIC: Took the boss's hint...New thread

RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 06:52 #31

  • British Matt
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SlowShoe wrote:
But as far as shoeing goes, the standards set by the British government must surely ensure to the most sureness that all who apply horseshoes on that island are doing a perfect job. So relatively speaking its not possible that there are any farriers who do poor work in the UK right?

unfortunately not. For starters, the diploma qualification is aimed at basic quality shoeing. It does not involve any training to deal with thereputic or remedial work, yet once you have passed, you can do any form of remedial work you like. This can result in poor farriery taking place. It does however ensure that all newly qualified farriers can demonstrate an ability and level of knowledge that meets the set standards, before being allowed to shoe without supervision. It is of course then up to the individual to maintain his or her standards. There is no ongoing form of assesment, which can and does lead to a decline in standards, something that compulsory CPD might address.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 07:31 #32

  • SlowShoe
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British Matt wrote:
There is no ongoing form of assesment, which can and does lead to a decline in standards, something that compulsory CPD might address.

So what your saying is that when regulation fails, add more regulation?
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 07:59 #33

  • British Matt
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SlowShoe wrote:
So what your saying is that when regulation fails, add more regulation?
Hey, I don't have the answers, I'm just telling you how it is over here. And in the whole, I'd say regulation works. You can't expect a governing body to be able to control what a person with free intention does. You can however demand that that person meets exacting standards at the beginning of their career. Good healthy foundations if you will.

Issuing a drivers licence doesn't make every body drive well, but it ensures that they know how to drive well, and then if they don't, their licence can be taken away. It's not fool proof, but it helps.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 08:27 #34

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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It must be that time of year again.

Time to disagree about standards of training, licensing, enforcement ;)

I know 'some' of you guys think that the UK system means we've got secret policemen all over the place telling us how to do things but heck it's just not like that.

Yes we've got a social democracy so that means we have regulation to protect but it is a democracy you know.

Farrier regulation is NOT some political conspiracy.

As you know because it's been discussed to death it was brought in as a welfare act to protect horses from the inept and darn right cruel and abusive.

Furthermore we are just altogether more "European" about things like training and qualification. In our mind it's just not worth a flying fig if you bought it off the internet, watched a CD ROM, went on a short course run by someone who was self-taught who bought the degree off the internet.

The thing is here you know when you phone a farrier that he's going to have had a minimum standard of training that's GOOD training. You know the training will have been undertaken by approved trainers that are themselves regularly checked and assessed and hence they're ACCREDITED. The farrier will have had to have not only attended but also have PASSED all of the practical assessments and also practical and theoretical examinations during the course of just more than 4 years.

Of course no legislation anywhere stops someone who just doesn't care or doesn't want to do a good job or who is willfully or criminally negligent.

BUT here you can do something about that. If I call a farrier here and he totally F* s up because he's abysmally useless then I can make a formal complaint to the Farriery Registration Council.

They will investigate under their procedure.

There? Well presumably you go on to a bulletin board with photos and let everyone have a vent about how shoddy the work is or how the perpetrator talks out of their backside having bought a qualification off the internet.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 08:30 #35

  • British Matt
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Another thing worth mentioning, is that when the regulations came in, many skilled farriers were also resentfull about being regulated. However, if they had x years experiance they could enter the register as a registered shoeing smith (RSS). I'm not sure of the exact details, but many of the older guys about now are RSS as opposed to holding the diploma qualification. I could be wrong but I think they never had to then do an exam, they automatically got registered, and it was only new farriers that had to undergo an apprenticeship and examination. It would after all be unnfair to force farriers with years of experiance to sit an exam, in order to be allowed to do what they have been doing for years.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 08:40 #36

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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That's right. They had what is colloquially known as "grandfather's rights"

There's also a methodology to that though. There's a basic assessment of prior learning. Very basic evidence had to be provided. So things like copies of old indentured apprenticeships or the qualifications that they took and courses they attended and even records of the horses they'd worked with.

Same happened with masses of qualifications - including for such as Electricians in the 1970's and 80's.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 11:07 #37

  • tbloomer
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Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
Same happened with masses of qualifications - including for such as Electricians in the 1970's and 80's.
Was the electrician's registration council made up of non-electricians?

What did it take in order for farriers in the UK to get seats on the FRC?

Who wrote the legislation and decided upon how the seats on the FRC would be filled?

According to my research on the history of farrier regulation in the UK, the initial makeup of the (FRC) governing body did not have any farriers and the legislation itself had no input from farriers.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 11:09 #38

  • tbloomer
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British Matt wrote:
Another thing worth mentioning, is that when the regulations came in, many skilled farriers were also resentfull about being regulated.
Perhaps they didn't like the idea of being regulated without being represented?
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 11:25 #39

  • British Matt
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tbloomer wrote:

According to my research on the history of farrier regulation in the UK, the initial makeup of the (FRC) governing body did not have any farriers and the legislation itself had no input from farriers.

I dont know, never researched it, but I have no doubt you are right. All I know is it works here, I dont hear of any farriers moaning about legislation. We take a pride in becoming registered. I dont know the intricacies of the state of farriery as a proffesion in the USA, and if all you guys are against legislation then it must be for a good reason.

All Im saying, is on this side of the pond, it works very well. I have no doubt it wouldnt on your side of the pond.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 11:33 #40

  • Gary Hill
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SlowShoe wrote:
And how would you 'go after' them? Would you Gary and others start your own campaign to raise awareness and try to effect their business or would you try to use the force of the state?

Well, it seems to me to be the place to at lease make a start if you were going to do anything? Do you think someone going to a two week school has learned enough to go out and compete with say Farriers with 5, 10, 20, 30 or 40 years? Must be some good school to teach someone so much in so little time? Don't get me wrong, schools are a great starting point but then well thats where the road gets alittle muddy?
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 13:22 #41

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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tbloomer wrote:
Was the electrician's registration council made up of non-electricians?

What did it take in order for farriers in the UK to get seats on the FRC?

Who wrote the legislation and decided upon how the seats on the FRC would be filled?

According to my research on the history of farrier regulation in the UK, the initial makeup of the (FRC) governing body did not have any farriers and the legislation itself had no input from farriers.

If you really do want to go back in history then initial charters were put together by Farriers and City Guilds. Way back as long as the 1890's there was a register and standards of training. In 1890, the Court invoked the assistance of the Lord Mayor, the Royal Agricultural Society, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, and others interested in the welfare of the horse to create a scheme for training, examination and registration of farriers. Mindful of the need to improve quality, the Company introduced in 1907 further tests, which gave rise to the AFCL qualification (Associate of the Farriers Company of London), followed by a even more difficult examination in 1923 to give holders the title, Fellow of the Worshipful Company of Farriers - FWCF.


So suffice it to say that your understanding isn't correct. But really this is all superfluous and distracting.

How's about concentrating on improving standards of training and competence and conduct in the profession in the USA.

Tell us how you think that might be achieved?
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 14:26 #42

Gary Hill wrote:
Why not first go after all the "Two Week Wonder" schools that dump hungry people out into the horse world?

yes!!! and I am for supporting the very good shoeing schools and give them more support in our community.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 14:28 #43

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
If you really do want to go back in history then initial charters were put together by Farriers and City Guilds. Way back as long as the 1890's there was a register and standards of training. In 1890, the Court invoked the assistance of the Lord Mayor, the Royal Agricultural Society, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, and others interested in the welfare of the horse to create a scheme for training, examination and registration of farriers. Mindful of the need to improve quality, the Company introduced in 1907 further tests, which gave rise to the AFCL qualification (Associate of the Farriers Company of London), followed by a even more difficult examination in 1923 to give holders the title, Fellow of the Worshipful Company of Farriers - FWCF.


So suffice it to say that your understanding isn't correct. But really this is all superfluous and distracting.

How's about concentrating on improving standards of training and competence and conduct in the profession in the USA.

Tell us how you think that might be achieved?

can be achieved by first reintroducing the Union from 1874 back into racing as a standard in the racing industry!!!!
that would be a start:rolleyes:

linda muggleworth, IUJH
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 14:44 #44

  • SlowShoe
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Thomas, its not about some silly conspiracy. If the government of the UK decided to forcibly make all its citizens wear gps locator tags so it could know where you are in case of some sort of 'emergency', would that be ok since its not a conspiracy, its simply to keep you safe? That might be a little too out there, but my point is;

It comes down to one simple fact. I have the RIGHT to be able to freely turn my labor into something that helps me live life as long as I do not interfere with anyone elses rights, or hurt anyone or their property whilst doing so. Fortunately we live in a Representative Republic here, not a Social Democracy. In a Republic the preservation of individual rights is the highest priority, as where in a Democracy the popular vote decides which rights you may have (scary). Government does not have the right to regulate how I make a living. Thats the end of it. I need not cower before someone as a subject.

-josh
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 15:16 #45

  • tbloomer
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Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
So suffice it to say that your understanding isn't correct.
In 2005 I interview Giles Holtum, FWCF regarding the creation of the farriers registration act and the farriers registration council. I've also interviewed Dave Duckett. FWCF who was teaching in the UK at the time the farriers registration act was brought into legislation.

According to my recollection of their recollection, the Worshipful Company requested the legislation in the interest of animal welfare, and the government supplied it (without the courtesy of asking the Company for any input as to how the legislation should be constructed and enforced) - selecting a veterinarian to write the "language" and then appointed a 16 member council (initially with no farriers in any of those seats) as the ruling body.

It is because of how the government in the UK went about regulating farriers with total disregard for any input from the WCF (the academic authority) instead granting that academic authority to a vet with no standing in the company. that Dave Duckett has fought many battles in the US to prevent several states from putting legislation into place in veterinary practice acts which place vets in authority over farriers.
But really this is all superfluous and distracting.
Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it.
How's about concentrating on improving standards of training and competence and conduct in the profession in the USA.
In order of execution, here is the ONLY way to do it legally in the US;
  1. Some national organization must create a definition of a standardized body of knowledge.
  2. Once codified, the curriculum required to teach the standard body of knowledge must be outlined.
  3. Body of Knowledge and curriculum form the basis of "accreditation."
  4. Schools would need to seek accreditation from the accrediting body. Accredited schools would be required to already have accreditation in other academic disciplines by other accreditation bodies already recognized by the US Department of Education under Title IV.
  5. Once the accreditation body was organized and the academic standards are codified and practiced with veracity among the schools what voluntarily sought accreditation, the national accrediting body could apply to the US Department of Education as a Title IV accreditation body.
  6. If the USDE approved the accreditation, the accredited schools would be able to offer college degrees in farriery and students would be able to seek education loans and grants under Title IV funding.
  7. With an actual fully accredited, recognized by the government, academic college degree in place, the individual states or the USDA could implement licensing requirements - which would be defeated on constitutional grounds because in the US, the constitution does not protect the welfare of animals above the rights of humans.
Tell us how you think that might be achieved?
It can't. There are not enough farriers of the caliber (foresight, intellect, DISCIPLINE, and desire) required to make that plan happen who are also willing to set aside their differences and engage in the drudge work required to create the "content" which would form the basis of such a long term plan.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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