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TOPIC: Took the boss's hint...New thread

RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 20:49 #16

  • Jay Mickle
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Edmund Burke:

The only liberty that is valuable, is a liberty connected with order; that not only exists with order and virtue, but which cannot exist at all without them. It inheres in good and steady government, as in its substance and vital principle.

Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put chains upon their own appetites; in proportion as their love of justice is above their rapacity; in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption; in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon the will and appetite is placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be of it without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate habits cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.

When I see the spirit of liberty in action, I see a strong principle at work and this, for a while, is all I can possibly know of it. The wild gas, the fixed air, is plainly broke loose: but we ought to suspend our judgment until the first effervescence is a little subsided, till the liquor is cleared, and until we see something deeper than the agitation of a troubled and frothy surface. I must be tolerably sure, before I venture publicly to congratulate men upon a blessing, that they have really received one.

What is liberty without wisdom and without virtue?—It is the greatest of all possible evils, for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.

The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

The true danger is, when liberty is nibbled away, for expedients, and by parts.
Jay Mickle
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 21:08 #17

  • British Matt
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scruggs1 wrote:
You pretty much nailed it. We also have all types of horse owners...those that compete at high levels tend to have the high level farriers. Those who don't know any better tend to use those farriers who don't know any better either. It really works itself out in that regard. The best customers do their job, let the trainer do his/her job, let the farrier do his/hers, and the vet do his/hers. The worst get caught up in all the hype and fads, then try to get us to do that **** to their horse. Just curious if along with licensing comes customer confidence in your knowledge and abilities, or do you have those over there who know more about how to shoe their horse than you do?
In general, most people trust us as farriers to do our job competently. It is ussually, the high profile customers that tend to know it all. An example would be my main customer, a racehorse trainer of 180 horses. He insists, and I mean insists, that all the two year olds are shod for the first few times with 3/4 hinds. Even after I show him the sheared heels on a couple of them, he point blank refuses to let me put full shoes on. I think it's his ego that refuses to accept that someone half his age could know more than him.

Then you get the tree huggers who take on an ex racehorse, get it shod then turn it out in a muddy field, and wonder why shoes 'fall' off after 4 weeks.

So in general, even with a recognised standard of competence, you still have to put up with ****!
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 00:38 #18

  • SlowShoe
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Mark_Gough wrote:
We've discussed this to death but it's always an interesting topic.

Mike, do you see value in the compulsory educational and licensing requirements that veterinarians must meet?

Cheers,
Mark

I know plenty of terrible vets. And plumbers, and electricians... the list goes on.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 00:43 #19

  • SlowShoe
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Mark_Gough wrote:
So in general, even with a recognised standard of competence, you still have to put up with ****!

But as far as shoeing goes, the standards set by the British government must surely ensure to the most sureness that all who apply horseshoes on that island are doing a perfect job. So relatively speaking its not possible that there are any farriers who do poor work in the UK right?
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 00:43 #20

  • Mike Ferrara
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SlowShoe wrote:
I know plenty of terrible vets. And plumbers, and electricians... the list goes on.

Say it isn't so!
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 00:46 #21

  • SlowShoe
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Txfarrier wrote:
+1, LOL, them licence po -lice will have to pry my cold dead hands off my tongs.

Im glad you picked up on that.. lol
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 01:02 #22

  • SlowShoe
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If any of you think that government licensing will somehow effect a massive change in farrier practices, you must be ****ing crazy. People still get sick at restaurants that have to get licenses for their kitchens. People who pass drivers test and get a government license to drive cars still kill people. People who buy guns and register them still shoot people once in a while. Veterinarian and doctors still lose patients when they shouldn't. Government is not some magic ferry (ier?) dust that makes everything OK.

The ONLY reasonable solution is private Certification, and consumer reviews (like websites). Certification would prove that a farrier is able to perform on a good level. Different cert standards for different levels like the CF TF CJF ect...The AFA for example could send representatives to stables to do clinics and explain WHY having a certified farrier is very important. It could put adds in magazines stressing the importance of certified farriers. But it DOESN'T. No one cares if you are certified. And in some cases it doesnt mean squat. I've seen work out of CJF's that is pure ****. But i've seen the same guy do a very very good job. For certification to work, a certifiying body could require its certifiecation pool to attend continuing ed clinics yearly or retest them every couple of years to maintain their certification.

Now, thats a great and effective way to make certification work without destroying farriery with legislation, and hurting people with heavy fines and things like that.

In the end certification dont matter, ones skills matter. Word of mouth and a lot of work IS certification that you are doing good work. The market will decide who fails and who prevails.

P.S. Compulsory licensing would result in me becoming a black market farrier. Fact.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 01:07 #23

  • Gary Hill
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Why not first go after all the "Two Week Wonder" schools that dump hungry people out into the horse world?
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 01:46 #24

  • solidrockshoer
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i agree with gary. go after these fly by night shools. they are in the business of a fast turn over not quality of education.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 02:03 #25

  • Mike Ferrara
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SlowShoe wrote:

P.S. Compulsory licensing would result in me becoming a black market farrier. Fact.

That's what we need is a healthier "black market" for all manor of products. Think of it as an economy stimulating tax cut...or the right to work...or just surviving on your own when the government says you should get in line to beg.

Or forget the black market and just trade in something other than government printed currency. Maybe send the IRS a basket of eggs to cover your tax liability. There you go. That's your share of what I earned. Don't let them spoil.

LOL the government prints it, let them keep it.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 02:26 #26

  • SlowShoe
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whip n drive wrote:
i agree with gary. go after these fly by night shools. they are in the business of a fast turn over not quality of education.

And how would you 'go after' them? Would you Gary and others start your own campaign to raise awareness and try to effect their business or would you try to use the force of the state?
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 02:37 #27

  • Txfarrier
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SlowShoe wrote:
Im glad you picked up on that.. lol

Its foremost in my mind that its the 2nd amendment that protects all the rest.
Dutch Denson CF

“A bar of iron costs $5, made into horseshoes its worth is $12, made into needles its worth is $3500, made into balance springs for watches, its worth is $300, 000. Your own value is determined also by what you are able to make of...
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 02:40 #28

  • Txfarrier
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Gary Hill wrote:
Why not first go after all the "Two Week Wonder" schools that dump hungry people out into the horse world?


Uh, any particular school in mind? LOL
Dutch Denson CF

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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 02:45 #29

  • solidrockshoer
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dutch. pick any from the list lol
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 13 Jul 2010 02:49 #30

  • Txfarrier
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SlowShoe wrote:
And how would you 'go after' them? Would you Gary and others start your own campaign to raise awareness and try to effect their business or would you try to use the force of the state?

I was thinking more along the lines of tar and feathering or burning crosses. The State wants to meddle to much in things that the common folk can take care of quite nicely, IMO
Dutch Denson CF

“A bar of iron costs $5, made into horseshoes its worth is $12, made into needles its worth is $3500, made into balance springs for watches, its worth is $300, 000. Your own value is determined also by what you are able to make of...
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