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TOPIC: Took the boss's hint...New thread

Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 16:41 #1

  • Mike Ferrara
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Chris Bunting said
compulsory recognised qualification and registration is the way to go
chris

Do things how you want over there. If you want to make them compulsory in my neck of the woods, you're going to have your work cut out for you.

I'm on what's probably the last major leg of my working life and this is likely the last business I'll ever start. I'm about tired of other people trying to run my business when it's my money and livelihood at stake.

I'm going to do it this time or I'm going to put up the very best fight I can trying.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 17:04 #2

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Mike, if the government did push through a standardized certification test and licensing what would you do? Stay in the business and pass the test or go start a new business in something else?

I hope it never happens, but I have started and gone thorugh some of the AFA testing (passed the CF) and work on the CJF some like you making plain stamps efficiently just in case. I love the individualism and self control I have, but the govt. could end that some day and I just want to be prepared.

I don't know that farriers as a group will ever agree on things as a whole profession, the individual part is what keeps that from happening. Most of the guys I know in the profession do this in great part because they get to be thier own boss and do things the way they want. Yes, we sometimes get together and help and teach, but each takes away what they think is right or good to use thier way and leaves what they don't like behind, building more on thier individual way of working.

I'd say we're a lost cause:rolleyes::D as far as getting together as one large group, but we're a heck of a group if individual go getters, well some anyway. Me, I'm just lazy.:cool:
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 17:11 #3

  • Mark_Gough
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Chris Bunting said

Do things how you want over there. If you want to make them compulsory in my neck of the woods, you're going to have your work cut out for you.

I'm on what's probably the last major leg of my working life and this is likely the last business I'll ever start. I'm about tired of other people trying to run my business when it's my money and livelihood at stake.

I'm going to do it this time or I'm going to put up the very best fight I can trying.

We've discussed this to death but it's always an interesting topic.

Mike, do you see value in the compulsory educational and licensing requirements that veterinarians must meet?

Cheers,
Mark
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 17:21 #4

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to be fair a lot of farriers on farrier forums give veterinary opinions and they are liable for their actions , they should be under the same guidelines in my opinion
chris
common sense is not needed when you have rules
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 17:30 #5

  • Mike Ferrara
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chris bunting wrote:
to be fair a lot of farriers on farrier forums give veterinary opinions and they are liable for their actions , they should be under the same guidelines in my opinion
chris

In the US we have the 2nd amendment to our Constitution which guarantees free speech. There are specific criteria for determining when speech becomes the practice of medicine and I don't think comments or opinions expressed on a chat site qualify as practicing medicine.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 17:40 #6

  • Mike Ferrara
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Mark_Gough wrote:
We've discussed this to death but it's always an interesting topic.

Mike, do you see value in the compulsory educational and licensing requirements that veterinarians must meet?

Cheers,
Mark

It's a valid function of government to restrain one person from harming another. It seems likely that vets are exposed to communicable diseases and they treat our food animals. We through the pets that live in our homes might also be exposed to those diseases by way of the vet and his/her tools.

Assuming that regulation of veterinary medicine is for the protection of people and our food, some regulation appears to be called for.

I don't see how any of that applies to horseshoeing.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 17:46 #7

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BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
Mike, if the government did push through a standardized certification test and licensing what would you do? Stay in the business and pass the test or go start a new business in something else?

I hope it never happens, but I have started and gone thorugh some of the AFA testing (passed the CF) and work on the CJF some like you making plain stamps efficiently just in case. I love the individualism and self control I have, but the govt. could end that some day and I just want to be prepared.

I don't think it would really matter...other than they would then bend us over for more and more fees and taxes...which we would just transfer the cost thereof to the customer, continuing to drive inflation. Having a standard and requiring that it be met for 'certification' purposes does not mean that the particular standard is required, by said certification agency, to be placed on every foot we encounter. Ten years ago, the CJF required me to make 4 open heeled, clipped, plain stamped shoes, fit a dime and a dime. I don't immediately recall the last time I nailed on an open heeled plain stamped shoe, nor do I immediately recall the last time I fit a horse to a dime and a dime on all 4 feet. The standard is nothing but a way for a candidate to demonstrate a proficiency, or lack thereof, using a particular skill set to meet said standard. It is the development of a particular skill set(s) that elevates competency and efficiency...essentially, the process, not the product. The more and differing standards we can subject ourselves to, the more we develop a variety of skill sets, which then makes us more adept at and bettering the chance that we will have in actually meeting the horse's needs...determining just exactly what those needs are is a completely different story...should any organization dictate and require a quantitative protocol for the horse's needs, then I think we will have a serious problem. Although I am completely against big government, excess taxation, promotion of the lazy, mediocrity, and dependency...well, it is easier to just say against democrats...and even some republicans...I think requiring competency to perform farriery, however and by whomever, ultimately helps the horse.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 17:58 #8

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BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
Mike, if the government did push through a standardized certification test and licensing what would you do? Stay in the business and pass the test or go start a new business in something else?

I don't know. We're faced with obstacles all the time and, most often, we just deal with it and move on.

The strength of my objection is probably based more on principle than anything. The principle is very important to me but licensing probably wouldn't much more than a minor inconvenience and another cost. Mostly just another goofy government intrusion.

If it happens, It'll probably prove to be useless and nothing but a pain in the butt for everybody and yet another chance to say "I told you so".
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 18:09 #9

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scruggs1 wrote:
I don't think it would really matter...other than they would then bend us over for more and more fees and taxes...which we would just transfer the cost thereof to the customer, continuing to drive inflation. Having a standard and requiring that it be met for 'certification' purposes does not mean that the particular standard is required, by said certification agency, to be placed on every foot we encounter. Ten years ago, the CJF required me to make 4 open heeled, clipped, plain stamped shoes, fit a dime and a dime. I don't immediately recall the last time I nailed on an open heeled plain stamped shoe, nor do I immediately recall the last time I fit a horse to a dime and a dime on all 4 feet. The standard is nothing but a way for a candidate to demonstrate a proficiency, or lack thereof, using a particular skill set to meet said standard. It is the development of a particular skill set(s) that elevates competency and efficiency...essentially, the process, not the product. The more and differing standards we can subject ourselves to, the more we develop a variety of skill sets, which then makes us more adept at and bettering the chance that we will have in actually meeting the horse's needs...determining just exactly what those needs are is a completely different story...should any organization dictate and require a quantitative protocol for the horse's needs, then I think we will have a serious problem. Although I am completely against big government, excess taxation, promotion of the lazy, mediocrity, and dependency...well, it is easier to just say against democrats...and even some republicans...I think requiring competency to perform farriery, however and by whomever, ultimately helps the horse.

If we look at other licensed trades/professions we see that some do indeed set protocol. For example an electrical contractors license. A primary focus is standards and codes. I think they are expected to follow those standards and codes.

I don't know hoe likely it is but I think it's possible that licensing could, to some extent, end up dictating how we shoe a horse.

BTW, contractor licensing is another example where the regulation is for the purpose of protecting one person from being harmed by another by having a building burn down or fall on them.

I'm still trying to figure out what valid reason there might be for government to get involved. Generally it's money or to limit competition...money.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 19:07 #10

  • British Matt
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As you all know, in the UK the act of Farriery is only allowed to be carried out by a qualified, registered farrier. This law was brought in in the 70's to prevent unessesary cruelty to horses, caused by the unskilled application of shoes.

It wasnt brought about as a way of making money, or controlling the business of farriers. It was purely to force unskilled blacksmiths out of the market, or to pursue a formal education in the craft.

When I was at the AFA conference this year in Portland, I mentioned this subject of enforced regulation, and to my surprise, almost everyone was against the idea. I couldnt understand why at first. Then someone explained that, the really good farriers, such as those that actively develop their education by going to seminas, or indeed those that care enough to access this forum, do not need any regulation. Their reputation and business is thriving, and being forced to register and take an exam is nothing more than a hinderance that will bring no real benefit to their business.

Then there are the sub standard farriers, who throw shoes on as best they can. They dont want registration because they will not be able to, or wont be willing to pass an exam, and will go out of business. Simple as that.

It was suggested to me that the middle ground farriers, such as those that are just starting out, might be keen on it. As a way of differentiating themselves by way of qualification, from the sub standard farriers.

Would this be an accurate view of the way things are?

All I know is that over here, although you get the odd farrier who lets standards slide, the vast majority of us perform at a high standard. We also have a new scheme called CPD (Continued Professional Development) which I believe is becoming compulsory soon. Rgistered farriers will be forced to attend seminas, clinics etc.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 19:22 #11

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British Matt wrote:
Would this be an accurate view of the way things are?

You pretty much nailed it. We also have all types of horse owners...those that compete at high levels tend to have the high level farriers. Those who don't know any better tend to use those farriers who don't know any better either. It really works itself out in that regard. The best customers do their job, let the trainer do his/her job, let the farrier do his/hers, and the vet do his/hers. The worst get caught up in all the hype and fads, then try to get us to do that **** to their horse. Just curious if along with licensing comes customer confidence in your knowledge and abilities, or do you have those over there who know more about how to shoe their horse than you do?
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 19:22 #12

  • Mike Ferrara
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British Matt wrote:
As you all know, in the UK the act of Farriery is only allowed to be carried out by a qualified, registered farrier. This law was brought in in the 70's to prevent unessesary cruelty to horses, caused by the unskilled application of shoes.

It wasnt brought about as a way of making money, or controlling the business of farriers. It was purely to force unskilled blacksmiths out of the market, or to pursue a formal education in the craft.

When I was at the AFA conference this year in Portland, I mentioned this subject of enforced regulation, and to my surprise, almost everyone was against the idea. I couldnt understand why at first. Then someone explained that, the really good farriers, such as those that actively develop their education by going to seminas, or indeed those that care enough to access this forum, do not need any regulation. Their reputation and business is thriving, and being forced to register and take an exam is nothing more than a hinderance that will bring no real benefit to their business.

Then there are the sub standard farriers, who throw shoes on as best they can. They dont want registration because they will not be able to, or wont be willing to pass an exam, and will go out of business. Simple as that.

It was suggested to me that the middle ground farriers, such as those that are just starting out, might be keen on it. As a way of differentiating themselves by way of qualification, from the sub standard farriers.

Would this be an accurate view of the way things are?

All I know is that over here, although you get the odd farrier who lets standards slide, the vast majority of us perform at a high standard. We also have a new scheme called CPD (Continued Professional Development) which I believe is becoming compulsory soon. Rgistered farriers will be forced to attend seminas, clinics etc.

I think that's fairly accurate except for the farriers who really are a danger to horses aren't really farriers and they work for owners who aren't going to take very good care of their horses.

I think those same "farrier" will be shoeing the same horses regardless of any licensing law. They'd just be doing it without a license. As it is, I'd bet that most of them aren't paying income tax on the money they earn shoeing horses. What's one more little law to break. if a guy doesn't mind crossing the Internal Revenue Service, a little thing like a license isn't going to stop him.

If you really want to protect horses, you have to start by regulating owners and I can't see that going over very well.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 19:31 #13

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Mike Ferrara wrote:
I think that's fairly accurate except for the farriers who really are a danger to horses aren't really farriers and they work for owners who aren't going to take very good care of their horses.

I think those same "farrier" will be shoeing the same horses regardless of any licensing law. They'd just be doing it without a license. As it is, I'd bet that most of them aren't paying income tax on the money they earn shoeing horses. What's one more little law to break. if a guy doesn't mind crossing the Internal Revenue Service, a little thing like a license isn't going to stop him.

If you really want to protect horses, you have to start by regulating owners and I can't see that going over very well.

Thats a very good point actually. Although I havent come across any, Im certain unlicenced fariery occurs over here to some degree.

Ive often joked to colleagues that there should be an owners licence;)
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 20:08 #14

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Mike Ferrara wrote:
In the US we have the 2nd amendment to our Constitution which guarantees free speech.

+1, LOL, them licence po -lice will have to pry my cold dead hands off my tongs.
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RE:Took the boss's hint...New thread 12 Jul 2010 20:39 #15

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Anthony Lawrence said
I got my cert when living in Oz.

The reason for the "consensus" is that the Victoria Racing Club (and probably others) began to require certification to plate gallopers. A high proportion of professional farriers rely on plating for at least part of their income.

Basically we were forced to comply. But that ain't no consensus.

Did it raise the level of farriery?

IMO it weeded out some of the worst and perhaps improved some of those with no forging skills at all. But the bar is necessarily set at a modest height, otherwise there would be a chronic shortage of platers.

It was a more successful exercise in bureaucracy than anything else (this is the direction Oz is headed, viz socialism) and as far as the trade is concerned, institutionalized mediocrity.

There are the various state Master Farriers associations, but these are voluntary memberships like the AFA et al.

You can still find plenty of diabolical steel hangers in Oz (and NZ)

That reminds me of how some on our political left keep saying that our Social Security system is the most popular government program ever. LOL sure it is. There is 100% participation because if you don't participate, they put you in jail.
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