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TOPIC: Joing the FHRC co-op... or not.

RE:Joing the FHRC co-op... or not. 26 Oct 2009 00:36 #46

  • Clint Burrell
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How bout an open forum,(within reason) where the faint of heart can fear to tread and even the most crass will be happy and welcome.;):eek::cool:
Clint Burrell

"You say your from collage,
but you don't seem to bright.
You just brought a swichblade
to a pistol fight"
Move On by Chris Knight
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RE:Joing the FHRC co-op... or not. 26 Oct 2009 00:46 #47

  • ray steele
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Clint Burrell wrote:
How bout an open forum,(within reason) where the faint of heart can fear to tread and even the most crass will be happy and welcome.;):eek::cool:

Clint,

herding cats:

I wonder if Baron is up to it.

regards

ray Steele
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RE:Joing the FHRC co-op... or not. 26 Oct 2009 00:58 #48

  • ray steele
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.

One of the interesting things to me is that those who often in the past were very vocal about signing names instead of hiding behind monikers are m.i.a.along with the folks who used pen names.

Personally, I think anybody too gutless to sign their posts with their given and family names has all the credibility of an emasculated amoeba. While this attitude may not be popular with folks wanting to hide behind the cloak of anonymity, I figure that if you ain't got the guts enough to sign your real name to a post, your cowardice is obvious and worthy of comment.

Ben Franklin used one (Poor Richard ) as have others.


If memory serves, Ben Franklin used his given and family name when he signed the Declaration of Independence. Reckon why he signed "Ben Franklin" instead of "Sarah Liebowitz"? Could it have been related to his wanting to take personal responsibility for his actions?

So Tom Stoval

was the same Ben Franklin , in your estimation "too gutless" when he wrote Poor Simons Almanac, previous to signing the Declaration of Independence or busy doing the business of disseminating information/propaganda.

To me when JPT or others including youself, wrote concerning the shoeing of a horse,I really didn't care about who wrote it as much as I appreciated the point of view, even if I thought I disagreed with it completely.

Regards

ray steele
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RE:Joing the FHRC co-op... or not. 26 Oct 2009 01:05 #49

  • Cyber Farrier
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Clint Burrell wrote:
How bout an open forum,(within reason) where the faint of heart can fear to tread and even the most crass will be happy and welcome.;):eek::cool:

There are already thousands of places on the internet where people may act as crass and immature as they desire. This site will not add another.

Baron Tayler
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

“No man's life, liberty, or property is safe...
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RE:Joing the FHRC co-op... or not. 26 Oct 2009 01:14 #50

  • Cyber Farrier
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Bill Adams wrote:
The factual slow down in the posting

I really don't know where you get that from, as there hasn't been a slowdown. There aren't as many "wrecks" and "fights" as there were, and since that's what some people focused on, their absence may be mistakenly perceived by them as a slowdown. That's too bad, as those people are missing a lot of good stuff in the "non contentious" exchange of information, which has continued unabated.
...has been caused in large part by the recently required inability to openly and forcefully discuss contentious subjects.

Pure male bovine excrement. The only "inability" lately has been the inability to make posts personal in nature. I don't care or limit how contentious the debates become as long as they stay on subject, and leave out the personal and leave the baggage outside. I realize some may not be able to differentiate between staying on subject and the personal, and therefore may feel they're being suppressed. That's their problem.

Baron Tayler
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

“No man's life, liberty, or property is safe...
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RE:Joing the FHRC co-op... or not. 26 Oct 2009 01:15 #51

  • ray steele
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Cyber Farrier wrote:
There are already thousands of places on the internet where people may act as crass and immature as they desire. This site will not add another.

Baron Tayler

Well I guess that answers " " Herding Cats" ,If Baron is up to it."

He's probably getting too old .

Regards

ray Steele
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RE:Joing the FHRC co-op... or not. 26 Oct 2009 01:22 #52

  • Cyber Farrier
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ray steele wrote:
...He's probably getting too old.

You are welcome to attribute it to any reason you desire!;)

Baron Tayler
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

“No man's life, liberty, or property is safe...
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RE:Joing the FHRC co-op... or not. 26 Oct 2009 01:53 #53

  • Bill Adams
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Well J.M. has my back. It got deleted though.
It was a decently written post about the top posters both in knowledge and experience are either gone or way down in posts. I must agree.

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Joing the FHRC co-op... or not. 26 Oct 2009 02:06 #54

  • Cyber Farrier
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Bill Adams wrote:
Well J.M. has my back. It got deleted though.

Yes, it did, for the use of inappropriate, filthy language that isn't tolerated in the forums. Is that the kind of "watching your back" you're proud of?
It was a decently written post

See why it was deleted, above. What's decent about filth?
...about the top posters both in knowledge and experience are either gone or way down in posts. I must agree.

I'm not going to bother wasting my time sparring with less than a handful of people who miss some posters that've stopped posting because they're not being allowed to run roughshod over others. Post 29 in this thread says it all. You don't agree, move on. Instead of whining about your perceived slow down, do something to contribute instead of whining.

Baron Tayler
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

“No man's life, liberty, or property is safe...
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RE:Joing the FHRC co-op... or not. 26 Oct 2009 02:17 #55

  • Bill Adams
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I honestly didn't notice the profanity as I didn't read the whole post.
As to roughshod postings in the past I got over the hurt and a few horses may not have been shod so rough because of those people.

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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RE:Joing the FHRC co-op... or not. 26 Oct 2009 02:44 #56

  • ray steele
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Well I posted that a "former poster on these forums" had told me that a # of posters had moved to a forum that "kim had posted on", that post was removed /deleted/ not posted as to he time of this post. I was privately posted words to the effect" post Kim for the address of that forum in a pm. Well I don't know Kim's address, and if I were running a forum "dedicated " to the dispersion of hoof care knowledge, I would "spread the knowledge" even if it was to another site!!!

Regards

Ray Steele
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RE:Joing the FHRC co-op... or not. 26 Oct 2009 02:48 #57

  • Cyber Farrier
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Bill Adams wrote:
I honestly didn't notice the profanity as I didn't read the whole post.

May I humbly suggest that before you refer to a post as a good example, you do indeed take the time to read the whole thing. A missed sentence or two can make a big difference.
As to roughshod postings in the past I got over the hurt

That's good. I also don't recall when you were personally attacked or slurred in posts (though perhaps my memory fails me), so I'm not sure you had much of anything to "get over" in that regard. Nonetheless, I'm glad your "good."
and a few horses may not have been shod so rough because of those people.

I'm happy about that as well. Let me make something clear: I have nothing but the utmost respect for the experience and knowledge of the more "tenured" farriers, including any that have stopped posting. Never have I said or written a single word disparaging their farriery talent, skill, or knowledge. But regardless of the amount of talent, skill or knowledge that anyone has, if they can't share it in a civil way, then I urge them to share it somewhere else where people don't mind that style of "sharing." Every one of the people who have stopped posting are always welcome back. The door has always been open. None of them has been banned. I'm tired of any implication that I'm keeping anyone away. If someone doesn't want to post here, that's their decision, not mine. Keep it civil, and you're welcome here. The decision is one every person must make for themselves.

And again I point out, instead of complaining about a few who've left, which contributes nothing, why not post some useful stuff. Get out there and answer questions (or ask questions). Then you'd be helping. That is why you're here, right?

Baron Tayler
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

“No man's life, liberty, or property is safe...
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RE:Joing the FHRC co-op... or not. 26 Oct 2009 02:50 #58

  • Cyber Farrier
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ray steele wrote:
...Well I don't know Kim's address,

Click on Kim's name next to her Avatar on any of her posts, and a box opens. Then you may send her an email or PM. You needn't know the address ahead of time. Aren't computers great?

Baron
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

“No man's life, liberty, or property is safe...
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RE:Joing the FHRC co-op... or not. 26 Oct 2009 02:53 #59

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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I'm not going to fight or use profanity, but I will say I agree that there has been a loss of some educational posters. Baron you tell Bill to quit whinning and post some thing himself, what if he doesn't have the experience, the cases, the rads, the pics for whatever reason, then what's he and others suppose to do? The posters we know you have lost were the one's with the rads and the special cases that could be used to teach those of us who are not as far along, as experienced, as knowledgabe as those people are. We lost a great educational opportunity, you only lost posters. Yes they have been replaced with nicer more politically correct touchy feely people who wouldn't post when the others were here, but the education level dropped in my opinion to make things nice. If all your worried about is having numbers of members and posts, well that's good for you, but those of us who come here to learn would rather have posters who can teach us about farriery. You have not lost many people, but you have lost some high quality people, no matter if that's only seen by a small number of us as you say.

I agree with you on most of your rules, the name signing, no profanity, keep the personal insults and attacks out of the threads, I know you have to keep order. But (there's always a but, I'm sure you'll have one from your perspective also) when you start pushing an agenda to one side and alienate another, there's always consequences. In this case, I think you have done yourself, the site, and the members somewhat of a dishonor by pushing some great minds with experience, knowledge, skill, passion, and a willingness to teach off the site. You got a tough job, I don't want it, but don't let numbers override knowledge, which is what I thought this site was about when I found it 8 or 10 years ago. I thought this was a place to learn farriery, not be touchy feely PC nicey nice so nobodys feeling got hurt. This is all JMO. Take it or leave it, but at least thnik about it. Ther's more than just a small group as you say that feel this way. We're just the one's crazy enough to state our opinions and we're out numbered by those on the other side of the coin by alot from what you say. That's because the others like us have been here and won't come back or email you cause they think this type of place is a waste of time. I could get you a couple hundred names pretty easy that have told me to stay away from this place, it full of crazies and wanna be's and internet shoers. They all say they don't have time for this kind of stuff cause it's just a big soap opera.

So, I give you your throne as it is yours and you will do as you please I'm sure. Just remember, some of those leaving are the one's who got you here. think about it!
Ben Sturman
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Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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RE:Joing the FHRC co-op... or not. 26 Oct 2009 04:47 #60

  • Cyber Farrier
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Hello Ben,

Thank you for your input. It's always welcomed.

BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
I'm not going to fight or use profanity,

Thank you. Immediately we've started on the right foot.
but I will say I agree that there has been a loss of some educational posters.
I never disagreed with that. Let me ask you: These forums have been around in some form for almost 15 years. There were "educational posters" active here before the ones that recently left joined in, and there will be more who join in the future. I'm not sure I understand why, because a few have left, some people are acting as if the world is ending. I'm sorry to see them leave. Truly. I've made that abundantly clear. But it was their decision, and life will go on. There's huge pool of talent out there. More farriers are joining the forums now than ever before.
Baron you tell Bill to quit whining and post some thing himself, what if he doesn't have the experience, the cases, the rads, the pics for whatever reason, then what's he and others suppose to do?
He does what everyone has done - ask questions so that those who want to share their experience and knowledge will do so. Not everyone is on the "teaching" side of the equation. Some are at the level where they are asking questions. If Bill wants to learn, he is welcomed to post questions and start discussions, same as lots of other people do. Complaining about people who aren't here doesn't accomplish anything. Ask questions. Start discussions. Then people with knowledge will have a reason to share.
The posters we know you have lost were the one's with the rads and the special cases that could be used to teach those of us who are not as far along, as experienced, as knowledgeable as those people are.
First, I didn't lose anyone. They left. And again I ask: Are they the only people who have rads, special cases, etc... that you may benefit from? They're irreplaceable? I wouldn't think so. There are thousands of farriers with just as much knowledge, just as much skill, and who will, given the opportunity, share it with you. There are thousands of farriers registered in these forums. More every day. All you need do is ask. Or wait until they post a case that interests you.
We lost a great educational opportunity, you only lost posters.
I think I just covered that.
Yes they have been replaced with nicer more politically correct touchy feely people who wouldn't post when the others were here,
I didn't know that being more civil was a "politically correct" thing. I don't see any touchy, feely posts. I do see discussions, even between some who formerly only fought, being conducted in a tone that befits discussion on a public board.
but the education level dropped in my opinion to make things nice.
As I've stated ad nauseum, I'm not happy certain posters left, but if they can't discuss things civilly, without personal attacks, slurs and dragging old baggage around, so be it. Others will step in. The world has not ended.
If all your worried about is having numbers of members and posts, well that's good for you, but those of us who come here to learn would rather have posters who can teach us about farriery.
I worry about more than just numbers. I also am concerned about how the site is perceived by the public at large, and the tone of the posts. You want posters who can teach you, then I give you this challenge: Post good questions, start good discussions, join other threads, and soon you'll see those people who you can learn from, posting. (I didn't realize you can't learn anything from Rick Burten, or Jason Maki, or Dr. Myers, or Smitty, or Ron Aalders, or Box Forge, or Tom Stovall, or Bob Pethick, or Frank Turley, to name only a few. They have nothing to share that you may benefit from?)
You have not lost many people, but you have lost some high quality people, no matter if that's only seen by a small number of us as you say.
I know that. I empathize with what you're saying from the knowledge sharing standpoint concerning those few. But knowledge is not an excuse for poor behavior. I'm truly sorry about that.
I agree with you on most of your rules, the name signing, no profanity, keep the personal insults and attacks out of the threads, I know you have to keep order.
Thank you.
But (there's always a but, I'm sure you'll have one from your perspective also) when you start pushing an agenda to one side and alienate another, there's always consequences.
You're right I have my perspective. And that is that I've never pushed any agenda, except civility. There are people who've been with this site for over 10 years, and are still with it, who have seen many others (some excellent and knowledgeable farriers, others not so) come and go. That's the nature of the way it works. There have been a few times in the past when things simply slowed down for no particular reason, for a few months. I recall once, about 11 years ago, things were so slow I thought about ditching the forums. But then a few months later activity roared back. New faces, new "teachers," lots of new visitors. The only constant is change.
In this case, I think you have done yourself, the site, and the members somewhat of a dishonor by pushing some great minds with experience, knowledge, skill, passion, and a willingness to teach off the site.
I've done nothing of the kind. I've made it clear what I expect from posters in regards to behavior, and every person makes their own choice. If you want to interpret the enforcement of civility as "pushing" people away, you're welcome to your opinion. That's not how I see it. Based on the letters and feedback I receive, it's all the thousands of people who want to visit here, and wouldn't because of the lousy reputation the incivility was giving the site, that were being dishonored. I won't let them be dishonored any longer by unacceptable behavior.
You got a tough job, I don't want it,
You wouldn't want it!
but don't let numbers override knowledge, which is what I thought this site was about when I found it 8 or 10 years ago.
Numbers don't override knowledge. In this venue, behavior does.
I thought this was a place to learn farriery, not be touchy feely PC nicey nice so nobody's feeling got hurt. This is all JMO. Take it or leave it, but at least think about it.
Farriery is learned here every day. Instead of focusing on what you think is lost, focus on what's here and build on it. Why you are acting as if those gone are irreplaceable is puzzling. There are many, many more ready to step in, and teach just as much, just as well, and do it in a civil manner. Not a bad thing in my book.
There's more than just a small group as you say that feel this way.
It doesn't bother me, because I know that enforcing civility is the right thing to do. I think I've made the reasoning behind that pretty clear. And it won't change. Others may be willing to trade bad behavior for knowledge. I won't.
We're just the one's crazy enough to state our opinions and we're out numbered by those on the other side of the coin by a lot from what you say. That's because the others like us have been here and won't come back or email you cause they think this type of place is a waste of time.
If that's your opinion, you have a right to it. I find it hard to fathom why anyone would consider a place to learn, in a civil environment, a waste of time, but....
I could get you a couple hundred names pretty easy that have told me to stay away from this place, it full of crazies and wanna be's and internet shoers.
You're right! And that's exactly why I'm enforcing the behavior rules. There's not a lot I can do about wanna-bes or "internet shoers," but I can sure enough try to reign in the "crazies" in terms of behavior.
They all say they don't have time for this kind of stuff cause it's just a big soap opera.
That is exactly what poor behavior leads to. You've made my case, thank you. If posts stay on topic and have no personal attacks, slurs or baggage thrown in, there's no "soap opera." The behavior I've more or less gotten rid of is exactly what leads to the soap operas. Amazing how the soaps have disappeared in the past two weeks.
So, I give you your throne as it is yours and you will do as you please I'm sure.
Just doing my best, day by day.
Just remember, some of those leaving are the one's who got you here. think about it!
No specific group "got me here." It's been the accumulation of the participation of thousands of people. I'd like to see the ones who left return, but I can't make them. They were great assets from a knowledge standpoint. I truly respect them, and miss them for that. But not so much in the "behavior" department.

Thanks again for your thoughts and feedback. Great food for thought. Regardless of our opinions, this is how discussions should be conducted. With respect and civility.

Baron Tayler
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

“No man's life, liberty, or property is safe...
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