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TOPIC: A great sing-along :)

RE:A great sing-along :) 10 Sep 2009 12:22 #31

HoustonFarrier wrote:
Why aren't the Dems wanting tort reform???
Your wish has been granted.

President Obama included tort reform in his speech last night.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:A great sing-along :) 10 Sep 2009 12:38 #32

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beslagsmed wrote:
Hussain Obama is a good snake oil saleman - can sell ice to polar bears. He is a smooth talker who isn't and can't be honest with the American people. The biggest problem is we need to get rid of both the donkeys and the elephants. Get some third parties in office and get give the people a chance.
Here here!
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RE:A great sing-along :) 10 Sep 2009 14:53 #33

  • HoustonFarrier
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Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
Your wish has been granted.

President Obama included tort reform in his speech last night.

It is NOT in HR3200, which is the current bill that has gone through 4 committees and will most certainly be brought to the floor of the house for vote.

Steve
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal. - Henry Ford (1863-1947)
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RE:A great sing-along :) 10 Sep 2009 14:56 #34

  • Gary_Miller
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Now you do. :) Please don't say anything silly, such as "health care is available to folks who choose pay for it"; in reality, that choice is UNAVAILABLE to millions of citizens in this country.
Last time I looked there was plenty of places in this country where one can get "health care". And no one is ever turned way from emergency care. So there is no lack of "health care" in our nation.

And yes Tom saddly it comes down to choice and what one choose to do with their money. And while I know there are those who struggle to make ends met because of little money it still is a choice on what you choose to do with your money. I know because i have to make that choice everyday of my life.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Nossir, I'm saying that the COST of health care is unconscionably high
Lots of people have said health care is to costly. Things like it cost to much to for an office visit, or two much for a hospital stay, or for drugs given while in the hospital. However, doctors have a huge overhead, they have equipment, staff, facility, insurance (malpractice and health insurance for employes), etc., all which cost money so they have to charge enough to cover their costs. Hospitals have the same thing. On top of all this they also have people who can't or don't pay that they see anyway so that adds to the overhead as well. From what I have seen I don't see where the costs charged by doctors or hospitals are to far out of line when you compare the overhead they have. Not to mention they also have to make a living.

Here is an example of a recent office visit my wife had, The doctor (a neurologist) billed the insurance $69.54 the insurance allowed $66.30 the insurance payed $54.30 I paid a $12.00 copay the difference between what was allowed and what was paid. Total time seen at visit around 30 minutes.

Another example. My wife had an echocardiograph done at a local hospital. Hospital billed $210.00 insurance allowed $68.37 insurance paid $68.37. Time to have test completed 1 hour.

I don't think that the amounts billed my the Doctor or hospital was out of line at all considering the cost of overhead. Yet the cost paid my my "government insurance" is barely enough and in some cases not enough to cover the cost associated with running a business.

So Tom or anyone else knowing what type of overhead a doctor has to run his business. What do you think would be a fare charge for just a basic office visit? And what do you think would be a good salary for a doctor?

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
- and that should have nothing to do with the cost of purchasing health care insurance because for-profit insurance is an artificial construction that creates a barrier between patient and doctor.
Yes but it has been determined that the problem with our "health care system" is the the cost and availability of "Health Insurance".
And the only reason for having insurance is so that we don't have a great big bill that could cause us financial hardship if something was to go really wrong.
As for creating a barrier between the patient and doctor only if you as a patient is unwilling (by choice) to pay for whats not covered by the insurance you purchased.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
C'mon Gary, do you really think anyone CHOOSES to live under a bridge?
No but I do think that in most cases it was choices one made at sometime, past and present, that put them under the bridge. And its ones current choices they make that keep them under the brigde.
This is not to be construed, that I don't think we as a society should not help them to get out from under the bridge. Because I think we should do what ever we can to help get people out from under that bridge if passable. But once we have done all that was passable, in the end its the choice of the individual if they get out from under the bridge.
However, its where this help comes from where the disagreement is.
Some people think that it the governments role and responsibility to make sure no one ends up under the bridge, and to do this they have the right to take money from one person and give it to another.
On the other hand some people think its not the governments role or responsibility to make sure no one ends up under the bridge but its the communities role and responsibility in which they live through the help of individual compassionate donations to charitable organizations.

Remeber, "Give a man a fish and you feed him a meal, teach a man to fish and you have feed him for a life time."

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
The salient point is that health care professionals are NOT running the health care industry! Insurance company actuaries, not medical personnel, determine the availability of medical procedures.
While insurance companies play a big part of this. Government regulations place upon the insurance companies play a bigger role.

Example: My wife needs a drug called "Imatrx" to help kill her migraine headaches. Her doctor wants to give her enough to have one a day if needed, or 30 a month. However, due to "government regulation" she is only authorized 18 a month. To get more the doctor has to write up a justification send it to the insurance company for approval. Both the pharmacist and the insurance company say it due to government regulations.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
I think the way our government has treated our veterans is disgraceful! However, the problem you've had with your government funded health care - or, or that matter, any problems I might encounter with Medicare - have no relationship to the problems of someone unable to obtain ANY health care.
I agree that there is no relationship to the problem of one not being able to obtain any health care. However the problems I have and the problems you have are a good indicator of the problems we will all have under government controlled health insurance.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
[As an aside, here in the Sunbelt, the emergency rooms have so been overwhelmed by illegal aliens that it's not uncommon for a hospital to place emergency vehicles on "drive by" status, meaning they CANNOT accept ANY patients in their emergency room because they simply don't have enough room. if the gutless bastards in Washington would make it a felony to hire anyone without a valid social security card, a big part of the lack of health care availability would be alleviated - but, don't hold your breath.]
I don't disagree that there is a big problem with illegal aliens. Sad to say that under the current administration the problelm is not going to go away, its just going to get bigger.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
So, yessir, I damn sure believe the government can do better job than the private sector when it comes to providing health care for folks who can't afford insurance! For some reason, it seems fashionable for many folks to disparage our government, as if it were some sort of doofus, collectively incapable of doing anything right - and I vehemently disagree with that proposition! It ain't perfect, it doesn't always get things right, but it's a helluva lot better than whatever system is second best.
I agree that our system of government is allot better than any other system of government currently on the planet. However it has been proven time and time again that there are just some things that are better off without government involvement. Government tends to have a tendency to over regulate everything in the name of doing what best for the nation. However, its been shone many times that government regulations are the problem and not the solution. Take the current economy its due to over regulation that most of our manufacturing companies are now over seas.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
As I see it, having more doctors in rural areas would be a Good Thing. At present, they tend to gravitate to urban areas, just like farriers, because that's where the money's at.
One has to do what they have to do to make a living. However it more than just the money for instance. I live in a rural area and there are good doctors in this area that I and my family would be more than willing to see. However, in order to have the best benefit program from my "Government Insurance" I can't see any of them because they are what is called out of the "catchment area" to be able to qualify as a primary care manager.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:A great sing-along :) 10 Sep 2009 14:57 #35

  • Gary_Miller
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
You have a valid point. Perhaps two years of some sort of government service for everyone, not just doctors and others slopping at the public educational trough, might not be a bad idea.
I don't think so.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Logically, government service would be in one's field of expertise: Teachers would teach, doctors would doctor, engineers would engineer, etc.
I think its much better for them to get out in their field where they can start contributing to their community and enjoying the things life has to offer. Then they can give back to their communities with a life time of service, as scout leaders, ball coaches, and other type service organizations.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Big Brother: Who else? Since many graduating students encounter huge debts while in school, it might be a viable means for them to get the debt monkey off their backs while serving their country. Two birds, one rock.
There are many opportunities to where one can have their debts paid off all one has to do is take advantage of them. However, some choose not to take that advantage and to pay off the own debts. I don't see any problem with that at all.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
I know, "Me first," and "I got mine" are representative of the personal philosophies of some folks on this forum,
My personal guess is that there is not very many if any on here that have that philosophy.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
but I much prefer the philosophy espoused by JFK's words, "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."
Words to live by. Its just to bad that our current president and many of our citizens don't understand the meaning of those words.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:A great sing-along :) 10 Sep 2009 15:15 #36

Originally Posted by Tom Stovall, CJF

but I much prefer the philosophy espoused by JFK's words, "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."
Gary_Miller wrote:
Words to live by. Its just to bad that our current president and many of our citizens don't understand the meaning of those words.
Maybe the current President has listened to many other words spoken by JFK.
If you live by those words perhaps you would consider living by other words spoken by the same wonderful man.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.

John F. Kennedy
.
.
.
..
Bradley SaintJohn

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RE:A great sing-along :) 10 Sep 2009 15:46 #37

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or cynics
whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities.
We need men who can dream of things that never were.
Author: John F. Kennedy

Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth.
Author: John F. Kennedy

The basic problems facing the world today are not susceptible to a military solution.
Author: John F. Kennedy

The test of our progress is not whether we add more
to the abundance of those who have much;
it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.
Author: Franklin D. Roosevelt

Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery,
I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.
Author: Abraham Lincoln

The assertion that 'all men are created equal'
was of no practical use in effecting our separation from Great Britain
and it was placed in the Declaration not for that,
but for future use.
Author: Abraham Lincoln

The world is very different now.
For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty,
and all forms of human life.
Author: John F. Kennedy
Bradley SaintJohn

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RE:A great sing-along :) 10 Sep 2009 16:26 #38

  • beslagsmed
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Gary, Tom,
I think both of you have hit the nail on the head - a couple years of government service, not always military, but in the field of their choice. I see no problem with this. This would put the responsibility more on "We the People" where it should be since we are using the services. Just too bad this idea would never come about as there are so many who just want and don't know how to contribute.
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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RE:A great sing-along :) 10 Sep 2009 18:01 #39

HoustonFarrier wrote:
It is NOT in HR3200, which is the current bill that has gone through 4 committees and will most certainly be brought to the floor of the house for vote.

Steve
Steve,

I said he included it in his speech.

As I recall there are 3 bills in the house and 2 in the senate. One senate bill has passed and the finance committee one is still pending. Reconciling the bills in each body will require some work by the individual bodies. Then whatever passes in the house and the senate will have to go to conference committee and then be voted on again. It is my hope that in this process both parties stop the partisan **** and negotiate in good faith.

If they do and they accept the leadership given last night as an outline for what comes out the other end then tort reform will be taken up in the process. I doubt that it will be as much as the Republicans want and I do not doubt that it will be more than the Democrats wanted to consider, but I hope that it will be there.

When the level of rancor raises to the level that a United States Congressman thinks its OK to shout out “you lie” disrespectfully at the President of the United States during an address to the joint houses of congress the well has been poisoned to a level that causes me great concern for the well being of the institutions involved. It is time for the Democrat and Republican leadership in congress to take stock of the nature of the monster they are creating and ask themselves if this is really how they want to be seen as leaders. IMO, they need to relearn the motto of being able to “Disagree with out being disagreeable.”

I’m going to drop this debate. I’ve said all I can and believe that I have done little to change anyone’s opinions. It will all be in the pudding at the end of the day.

As I do go I would suggest to everyone that they take a little time to review how their positions and presentations appear. I’m not exactly proud of how I approached Mr. Perry and I’m sorry that I allowed our past history and my opinion of Mr. Perry to color my interaction as it did. I’ll have to be more vigilant in the future.

I feel passionately about the moral fiber of this issue and the need to help those less fortunate in our society. If that passion has lead me to be more abrupt with some that I should have been, I’ll address their individual concerns or hurt feelings should they be presented privately.

To everyone, be kind to one another and be safe.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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"What is popular is not always right; what is right is not always popular." Unknown

"In matters of style swim with the current; In matters of principle, stand like a...
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RE:A great sing-along :) 10 Sep 2009 19:56 #40

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Bradly all good words. I guess the problem lies as to where the responsibility comes from the government or the community. IMO the responsibility lies with the community and the charity of the individual. Not by government enforced charity.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:A great sing-along :) 10 Sep 2009 20:06 #41

Gary_Miller wrote:
Bradly all good words. . . .IMO the responsibility . . ..
The beauty of democracy . . . We are allowed to have an opinion and to express it.

Yea for that. :D
Bradley SaintJohn

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RE:A great sing-along :) 10 Sep 2009 21:36 #42

Everything has just become way too complicated. We are paying the price of advancement.

Does anyone know how much some of the equipment and medicines they use in hospitals costs to create? We have such great success in treating diseases and ailments because of state-of-the-art equipment and research. I have friends who work at the National Institute of Health doing cancer research. It takes a tremendous amount of resources to find people that have the ability and education to perform the research, not to mention the equipment and resources they use to get results. How much do you think the education of those researchers costs? How much are they worth when they are finding new, better, and faster ways to treat illness? The costs are extraordinarily high.

Can any of you even fathom the brilliance and the cost of a microscope that can let you see a 3-D image of atomic structures? The microscope has a resolution of half an angstrom. To give some perspective on that, a fingernail grows 10 angstroms every second. If you have two things spaced half an angstrom apart, you could tell them apart with this microscope. But more importantly, it's not just the ability to tell them apart but the clarity and contrast in the image. It's not as simple as looking at a picture and being able to tell what it is. You need to be able to interpret what you see. This is only one example of a 27-million dollar expense that "We The People" benefit from and our children benefit from in the form of advancement.

What about the value of the people who create these phenomenal devices? How much are they worth? What is the price of their education? It's called the trickle-down effect. Advancement has a price.
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RE:A great sing-along :) 10 Sep 2009 23:06 #43

MyraLynn79 wrote:
Everything has just become way too complicated. We are paying the price of advancement.

Does anyone know how much some of the equipment and medicines they use in hospitals costs to create? We have such great success in treating diseases and ailments because of state-of-the-art equipment and research. I have friends who work at the National Institute of Health doing cancer research. It takes a tremendous amount of resources to find people that have the ability and education to perform the research, not to mention the equipment and resources they use to get results. How much do you think the education of those researchers costs? How much are they worth when they are finding new, better, and faster ways to treat illness? The costs are extraordinarily high.

Can any of you even fathom the brilliance and the cost of a microscope that can let you see a 3-D image of atomic structures? The microscope has a resolution of half an angstrom. To give some perspective on that, a fingernail grows 10 angstroms every second. If you have two things spaced half an angstrom apart, you could tell them apart with this microscope. But more importantly, it's not just the ability to tell them apart but the clarity and contrast in the image. It's not as simple as looking at a picture and being able to tell what it is. You need to be able to interpret what you see. This is only one example of a 27-million dollar expense that "We The People" benefit from and our children benefit from in the form of advancement.

What about the value of the people who create these phenomenal devices? How much are they worth? What is the price of their education? It's called the trickle-down effect. Advancement has a price.

Other countries have these advancements that don't pay near so much for their healthcare.
Karen Standefer
Southern Oregon
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RE:A great sing-along :) 11 Sep 2009 00:54 #44

  • Gary_Miller
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KarenStandefer wrote:
Other countries have these advancements that don't pay near so much for their healthcare.
So Karen I posted this earlier today in my post to Tom S..

Maybe you would care to give your answer as well.

Lots of people have said health care is to costly. Things like it cost to much to for an office visit, or two much for a hospital stay, or for drugs given while in the hospital. However, doctors have a huge overhead, they have equipment, staff, facility, insurance (malpractice and health insurance for employes), etc., all which cost money so they have to charge enough to cover their costs. Hospitals have the same thing. On top of all this they also have people who can't or don't pay that they see anyway so that adds to the overhead as well. From what I have seen I don't see where the costs charged by doctors or hospitals are to far out of line when you compare the overhead they have. Not to mention they also have to make a living.

Here is an example of a recent office visit my wife had, The doctor (a neurologist) billed the insurance $69.54 the insurance allowed $66.30 the insurance payed $54.30 I paid a $12.00 copay the difference between what was allowed and what was paid. Total time seen at visit around 30 minutes.

Another example. My wife had an echocardiograph done at a local hospital. Hospital billed $210.00 insurance allowed $68.37 insurance paid $68.37. Time to have test completed 1 hour.

I don't think that the amounts billed my the Doctor or hospital was out of line at all considering the cost of overhead. Yet the cost paid my my "government insurance" is barely enough and in some cases not enough to cover the cost associated with running a business.

So Tom or anyone else knowing what type of overhead a doctor has to run his business.

What do you think would be a fare charge for just a basic office visit?

What do you think would be a good salary for a doctor?.

And how about some extra credit.

Lets say you had to be omitted to the hospital and you were only the Medical/Surgical floor. That's the floor where most people stay who don't have allot of complications.

1. Now knowing that there has to be at least two nurses on the floor at all times and if there is more than 6 patents another nurse has to be added. (Figure come from the hospital where my daughter works and may be different at other hospitals.) My daughter makes $21.50 an hour including health care benifits, vacation, sick leave, etc..

2. You have a staff that cleans the floor and makes the beds everyday.

3. You have laundry associated with every patent.

4. You have electricity costs.

5. You have administration costs.

6. You have hospital maintenance costs.

7. You have equipment replacement costs.

8. Other Overhead costs.

I think you get the picture.

What would be a fare charge for a your overnight hospital stay?

Knowing that in order for a patent to be given a drug the following has to happen.
1. The doctor has to prescribe the drug.
2. The hospital pharmacy has to bring the drug to the floor.
3. The drug has to be locked up in a cabinet awaiting dispensing. (have to buy a cabinet and monitor the key)
4. A nurse has to spend time dispensing the drug at a specific given time table.
5. A record needs to be recorded in the computer system of the drug being given. (the hospital had to buy a computer system and keep it current)

What would be a fare charge for a medication given to a patent in the hospital?
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
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RE:A great sing-along :) 11 Sep 2009 01:17 #45

  • Gary Hill
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I don't have a problem paying a fair price for services of anykind, but I do have a problem paying an inflated price because some lazy a s s walks in and gets his services free. They know I have insurance to cover my expenses but they will charge my insurance to pay for his! My church has a Statement on the wall, saying that it is the Churches responsibiliy to take care of the widows and the sick. The Roman Catholic Church is one of the richest businesses in the world. Get the government out of it and let the churches do the Charity.
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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