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TOPIC: Health Care

RE:Health Care 28 Nov 2009 20:32 #376

  • Gary_Miller
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afajmmcjf wrote:
As I said. Start looking at the facts.
They can be found in many Newspapers, books, and other objective publications.
God for bid people should take the time to read.
Divide and conquer.
same argument different bull.
Jack

May I suggest two publications for your reading pleasure.

The Deceleration of Independence

and

The Constitution of the United States
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Health Care 29 Nov 2009 14:52 #377

Rick Burten wrote:

Want to see how well the government already deals with health care? Feast your eyes on the Veterans Administration.

Also Indian reservations. Last time I went through one was about 25 years ago. I had a good look around, they didn't look like they were doing all that great to me. Is it any better now?

John
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RE:Health Care 30 Nov 2009 18:45 #378

  • Scott Chaney
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Some things to consider about the Obama Health Care Plan:


On July 26, 2000, the Journal of the American Medical Association published a landmark paper by Barbara Starfield (Johns Hopkins School of Public Health), “Is US health really the best in the world?” In it, Starfield revealed what many people inside the medical establishment already knew: every year, like clockwork, the medical system was killing huge numbers of people. This wasn’t a dream. It was too real. By all rights (but who cares about rights?) the game was up. The liars and the PR flacks and the public health agencies were going down. The drug companies were going to take a lethal blow. Hospitals all over America were going to have to confess their many sins. Of course, that never happened.

Each year in the US there are:

12,000 deaths from unnecessary surgeries;

7,000 deaths from medication errors in hospitals;

20,000 deaths from other errors in hospitals;

80,000 deaths from infections acquired in hospitals;

106,000 deaths from FDA-approved correctly prescribed medicines.

The total of medically-caused deaths in the US every year is 225,000.

This makes the medical system the third leading cause of death in America, behind heart disease and cancer.

In the wake of Starfield’s devastating report, other facts came to light: 2.1 million people in America, every year, are hospitalized as a result of reactions to FDA-approved medicines. Annually, 36 million serious adverse reactions to those drugs occur.

So, inclusive health coverage for many more Americans under the Obama Plan—with business as usual—means these horrendous figures will rise.

This is the dirty secret. This is what the political Left in this country, those avid defenders of “medical science,” must pretend isn’t there at all. And the Republicans are in the same position.

Obama and his allies are promoting a medical system that is the third leading cause of death in America. It’s that stark and it’s that simple.

This is where we begin, if we are to understand the Obama Plan.

The Plan involves appointing an “expert panel” to decide what treatments Americans should be given for what diseases, under the new regime.

Only a certified ***** would assume that, over time, alternative non-mainstream therapies would survive such an ongoing vetting. Hope may spring eternal, but common sense makes it easy to grasp the realities on the ground.

Alternative therapies will die out. They will be edged out. Those that remain will be permitted for a narrow range of conditions, or as adjuncts to standard drug treatments and surgery.

Chiropractors and acupuncturists, who are temporarily basking in the notion that Obama “really cares,” are in for a very rude awakening down the line. Their careers and practices will be significantly reduced. Not today, not tomorrow, but it will happen. Perhaps these practitioners only fret about the short-term. Perhaps they’re simply looking for a few scraps from the table as long as the meal lasts.

Veteran health and medical journalist Peter Chowka points out (http://tinyurl.com/gonzalex-obama) that Americans who want to take responsibility for their own health, who don’t want onerous medical insurance, would be drafted into the Plan, and they would pay for it. With no escape possible, their discretionary incomes would shrink, and many of them would no longer be able to buy the healthiest foods and the supplements they use to prevent illness.

JON RAPPOPORT
www.insolutions.info
www.nomorefakenews.com

I encourage you to read the entire article and others!
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RE:Health Care 30 Nov 2009 19:23 #379

  • Rick Burten
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While I agree that Obamacare is bad legislation, I would also ask, "if the medical care system is the third largest cause of death in the U.S., where does it rank in the number of lives saved?

And let us not forget the axiom "There's three kinds of lies: Lies, D-amed lies and Statistics. And, the government and others are very good at all three.

Rick
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Health Care 02 Dec 2009 02:45 #380

  • SlowShoe
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Government makes it impossible to have affordable health care. We need MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH less government involvement in health care. Health care rates only started going up when government started heavy regulation on health care. Special interests moved in and helped create the high prices and ridiculous government requirements to protect big pharmas market share.

Doctors need to employ more people to shuffle government paperwork than they employ in medical staff. Government routinely shuts down medical practices that offer affordable healthcare saying that if they offer a very low flat rate on healthcare they are an insurance company so they are required to raise rates in order to keep their medical license. Government intervention in healthcare caused the problems we see. And people want more of it???

If government respected the same laws that we regular peons need to we wouldnt have these problems. but government is a mighty extortion machine operated by special interest. The only way to stop it from hurting people is to confine it to operating by the basic laws of voluntary interaction just like any normal peaceful person must. Instead everything it does is by force. There are very few voluntary interactions with government, most interactions are done at the point of a gun. Try to think of one that's not!

We need real Health Care reform. Not this special interest Corporatism forced purchasing of health care garbage thats being crammed down everyone's throat. Real health care reform means LESS GOVERNMENT which equals LESS SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS which equals REAL BENEFITS and REDUCED COSTS for real people.

-josh
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RE:Health Care 02 Dec 2009 13:07 #381

  • Mike Ferrara
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SlowShoe wrote:
Government makes it impossible to have affordable health care. We need MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH less government involvement in health care. Health care rates only started going up when government started heavy regulation on health care. Special interests moved in and helped create the high prices and ridiculous government requirements to protect big pharmas market share.

Doctors need to employ more people to shuffle government paperwork than they employ in medical staff. Government routinely shuts down medical practices that offer affordable healthcare saying that if they offer a very low flat rate on healthcare they are an insurance company so they are required to raise rates in order to keep their medical license. Government intervention in healthcare caused the problems we see. And people want more of it???

If government respected the same laws that we regular peons need to we wouldnt have these problems. but government is a mighty extortion machine operated by special interest. The only way to stop it from hurting people is to confine it to operating by the basic laws of voluntary interaction just like any normal peaceful person must. Instead everything it does is by force. There are very few voluntary interactions with government, most interactions are done at the point of a gun. Try to think of one that's not!

We need real Health Care reform. Not this special interest Corporatism forced purchasing of health care garbage thats being crammed down everyone's throat. Real health care reform means LESS GOVERNMENT which equals LESS SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS which equals REAL BENEFITS and REDUCED COSTS for real people.

-josh

Government interference is a major cause of high health care costs. That interference comes in a whole bunch of areas from wage and price freezes going back to WW2 resulting in more employer provided insurance to restrictions on drug and insurance purchase and tort law/defensive medicine. It's the government that killed competition.

Another major contributor is the simple fact that there are so many more treatments available. It wasn't very long ago that there just wasn't much that medical science could do for you so it didn't cost very much.

The currently proposed "reform" ignores the mechanics of the situation and attempts to just throw another entitlement program at it. Spending lots of money does NOT insure a favorable outcome.
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RE:Health Care 02 Dec 2009 15:46 #382

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RE:Health Care 03 Dec 2009 13:50 #383

SlowShoe wrote:
Government makes it impossible to have affordable health care. We need MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH less government involvement in health care. Health care rates only started going up when government started heavy regulation on health care. Special interests moved in and helped create the high prices and ridiculous government requirements to protect big pharmas market share.

Hi Josh.

Can you explain in more detail what you're talking about? When was this gov't regulation started? What specifically did it regulate?
Karen Standefer
Southern Oregon
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RE:Health Care 03 Dec 2009 14:21 #384

SlowShoe wrote:
Here's a documentary worth watching:

http://www.freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=102
Karen Standefer
Southern Oregon
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RE:Health Care 03 Dec 2009 15:06 #385

Question:

If this passes...how it this going to affect the Old-order Amish/Team-Mennonites on public option and others who don't believe in certain types of medicine?? Do we as a society have to pay their taxes (which will be even a bigger tax burden on the rest); because of their belief systems? And we still care for them if they get hurt or other illnesses?...but don't pay into the system that now will be forced on them?
Ex. Old- order Amish don't pay into the SSI system; but they don't get a SSI check when they are old, either. We can't do that in a life or death situation; or withhold medicine or a medical procedure.
How are we going to solve that problem?
I don't think in the 2000 page report anyone was thinking about this sticky (separation of church and state) situation.

Any one?

Linda Muggleworth
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RE:Health Care 04 Dec 2009 00:07 #386

  • Mike Ferrara
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KarenStandefer wrote:
Hi Josh.

Can you explain in more detail what you're talking about? When was this gov't regulation started? What specifically did it regulate?

I'm not Josh but I think I posted some pretty detailed info and maybe some links earlier in the thread. From memory (there may be earlier examples but this will do for a start) there were wage and price freezes going back to WW2. In order to compete for labor companies started offering benefits since they couldn't offer more money. There were later examples of wage freezes also.

Insurance all but ended competition among health care providers because insurance companies got in the habit of telling you which doctors you could see.

Government limits where you can buy insurance and government regulates where you can buy drugs so now there isn't much competition in drugs, insurance or health care providers.

Additionally programs like Medicare serve to hold prices up. Did you know that it's illegal for a doctor who accepts Medicare to charge less for a service than what Medicare will pay? Step by step it's government that created the situation we're in now.
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RE:Health Care 04 Dec 2009 00:26 #387

  • Mike Ferrara
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ladyblacksmith wrote:
Question:

If this passes...how it this going to affect the Old-order Amish/Team-Mennonites on public option and others who don't believe in certain types of medicine?? Do we as a society have to pay their taxes (which will be even a bigger tax burden on the rest); because of their belief systems? And we still care for them if they get hurt or other illnesses?...but don't pay into the system that now will be forced on them?
Ex. Old- order Amish don't pay into the SSI system; but they don't get a SSI check when they are old, either. We can't do that in a life or death situation; or withhold medicine or a medical procedure.
How are we going to solve that problem?
I don't think in the 2000 page report anyone was thinking about this sticky (separation of church and state) situation.

Any one?

Linda Muggleworth

I don't think there are enough Amish for it to be a problem but I have another one or two that maybe someone can speak to.

As it is now, I'm not wealthy and I don't have health insurance. When I see a doc, I pay. If I can't pay, I do without. I'm not asking you or the government for anything. I could use a new set of teeth but the truck is getting a $1500 repair (that was my teeth and I need a roof). If I were to become seriously ill, I may very well decide to not seek treatment and leave that money for my family. Hey, you live how you want and I'll live how I want. ooops, I forgot, they aren't going to let us do that anymore.

Both the House and Senate bills MANDATE that individuals buy insurance and they're going to tell you what kind. Long before I ever get sick, the money is spent and gone regardless of how I would like to plan my finances and estate. If I never get sick, the money's gone anyway and my family is still deprived of it.

There are other related issues. The sort of insurance that a young, strong, healthy person might want may very well be completely different than what an older person might want. That choice is going away because the government has decided for you what you should want and what you WILL buy.

Personally, I'd like an affordable major medical (high deductable) policy but what is all this preventative stuff? Are people just hanging out at the docs office these days, or what? I don't need or want insurance for routine stuff. I have car insurance but it doesn't cover oil changes...but what I want isn't going to matter if one of these bills pass into law.
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RE:Health Care 06 Dec 2009 03:27 #388

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KarenStandefer wrote:
Here's a documentary worth watching:

http://www.freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=102

The error here is that this video does not show Capitalism at all. It shows Corporatism. Where Corporations use government to promote their agenda and protect their interests through regulation and passage of laws that protect these corporations. Now if government was not allowed to hurt and regulate people or things such as it does, this could not exist. There is no free market or capitalism in the world right now. And none of us have been alive long enough to see either. Its not capitalism that's the problem, its government. You cant solve a problem by adding more problem to it.
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RE:Health Care 06 Dec 2009 04:20 #389

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SlowShoe wrote:
The error here is that this video does not show Capitalism at all. It shows Corporatism. Where Corporations use government to promote their agenda and protect their interests through regulation and passage of laws that protect these corporations. Now if government was not allowed to hurt and regulate people or things such as it does, this could not exist. There is no free market or capitalism in the world right now. And none of us have been alive long enough to see either. Its not capitalism that's the problem, its government. You cant solve a problem by adding more problem to it.

Our politicians are for sale and it's best they don't do anything at all until we fix that.
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RE:Health Care 06 Dec 2009 07:23 #390

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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Our politicians are for sale and it's best they don't do anything at all until we fix that.

Mike,
You nailed the problem perfectly. Until this problem is fixed, not much of anything will get done for the betterment of the U.S.A.
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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