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TOPIC: Health Care

RE:Health Care 21 Nov 2009 05:35 #361

  • mf_meyer
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Actually there is a GOP version that has been posted as of 03 Nov 09. It is at::

http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare

There are also a few other links to comparisons between House Bill and GOP Bill on the same page.





regards,
Mark Meyer
M F Meyer
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RE:Health Care 22 Nov 2009 03:29 #362

mf_meyer wrote:
Actually there is a GOP version that has been posted as of 03 Nov 09. It is at::

http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare

There are also a few other links to comparisons between House Bill and GOP Bill on the same page.

Since the House bill had already been voted on and passed, I didn't think I needed to specify "Republican Senate Bill". Sorry that I confused you. I'm looking for the Republican Senate Bill in a published format.
Karen Standefer
Southern Oregon
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RE:Health Care 22 Nov 2009 06:30 #363

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KarenStandefer wrote:
Since the House bill had already been voted on and passed, I didn't think I needed to specify "Republican Senate Bill". Sorry that I confused you. I'm looking for the Republican Senate Bill in a published format.

Did not confuse me ... that is not what you stated below!! The whole republican party is is both the House and the Senate.

KarenStandefer wrote:
All I have to say is that you have a very strange definition for transparency. But, I guess the whole Republican party does since they haven't seen fit to post their health care plan!

Transparency is not developing a bill behind closed doors - heck since there was no floor time allotted to House republicans to present their bill by Speaker of the House Ms. Pelosi...

I do not think that many people even knew that the House GOP asked to present their bill and debate it... heck even that they had a proposed bill was not covered widely in the press...

And while you are correct that the Senate republicans did not develop a separate proposal (at least that I could find) I am not sure that there would have been any different outcome in the Senate... compared to what happened in house ... if they had put together a full bill to present as Mr. Reid holds the cards on what can and will be presented on the senate floor.
M F Meyer
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RE:Health Care 22 Nov 2009 15:35 #364

mf_meyer wrote:
Did not confuse me ... that is not what you stated below!! The whole republican party is is both the House and the Senate.

Transparency is not developing a bill behind closed doors - heck since there was no floor time allotted to House republicans to present their bill by Speaker of the House Ms. Pelosi...

I do not think that many people even knew that the House GOP asked to present their bill and debate it... heck even that they had a proposed bill was not covered widely in the press...

And while you are correct that the Senate republicans did not develop a separate proposal (at least that I could find) I am not sure that there would have been any different outcome in the Senate... compared to what happened in house ... if they had put together a full bill to present as Mr. Reid holds the cards on what can and will be presented on the senate floor.

That's just not the way it works. A bill is cooked up by an individual or a groups of individuals. It is printed and signed by all of the sponsors and put into a hopper at the Clerk's desk. It is then assigned a number and logged. The speaker of the house and the parliamentarian then assign it to the respective committees (the ones who have jurisdiction over the various parts of the proposed bill). The committees are made up of republicans and democrats............they are all bi-partisan committees. The committee holds public hearings which are published. In these hearings, witnesses with various viewpoints are allowed to speak. The hearings are published with dates and times (you can attend these, but you can't speak unless you're scheduled to do so). The transcripts of these meetings are available to be read by anyone. They are NOT secret. The whole process is very transparent. The committee can then amend the bill, pass it as is or table it.

If the bill is reported out of the committees, then it goes to the full House where it is debated and amended (as amendments are proposed, they are debated and voted on). Finally there is a final version which is voted on by the whole House. After it passes the House, it must go to the Senate where a similar process is followed.

The bill that you referenced as being the House Republican healthcare bill was never submitted as a bill. It would have a HR number if it were. You can find all of the bills that have been submitted to the House and Senate here: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/all

From that link you can also get to all of the committees. You can see the members, see what bills they're working on and many of them even have live links to their hearings so that you can watch the proceedings in the case that you can't be there in person. You can even find out the schedule of a hearing you're particularly interested in and then Tevo the hearing while you're at work. Or just get the transcript and read it all after the fact.

The House/Senate bill making process is as transparent as you wish it to be according to how much effort you want to make to find out what is going on.
Karen Standefer
Southern Oregon
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RE:Health Care 22 Nov 2009 17:51 #365

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KarenStandefer wrote:
That's just not the way it works. A bill is cooked up by an individual or a groups of individuals. It is printed and signed by all of the sponsors and put into a hopper at the Clerk's desk. It is then assigned a number and logged. The speaker of the house and the parliamentarian then assign it to the respective committees (the ones who have jurisdiction over the various parts of the proposed bill). The committees are made up of republicans and democrats............they are all bi-partisan committees. The committee holds public hearings which are published. In these hearings, witnesses with various viewpoints are allowed to speak. The hearings are published with dates and times (you can attend these, but you can't speak unless you're scheduled to do so). The transcripts of these meetings are available to be read by anyone. They are NOT secret. The whole process is very transparent. The committee can then amend the bill, pass it as is or table it.

If the bill is reported out of the committees, then it goes to the full House where it is debated and amended (as amendments are proposed, they are debated and voted on). Finally there is a final version which is voted on by the whole House. After it passes the House, it must go to the Senate where a similar process is followed.

The bill that you referenced as being the House Republican healthcare bill was never submitted as a bill. It would have a HR number if it were. You can find all of the bills that have been submitted to the House and Senate here: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/all

From that link you can also get to all of the committees. You can see the members, see what bills they're working on and many of them even have live links to their hearings so that you can watch the proceedings in the case that you can't be there in person. You can even find out the schedule of a hearing you're particularly interested in and then Tevo the hearing while you're at work. Or just get the transcript and read it all after the fact.

The House/Senate bill making process is as transparent as you wish it to be according to how much effort you want to make to find out what is going on.

Yes in a perfect world that is how things are supposed to work ...You still miss the point that the majority party can a does control what will come up for debate on the floor, along with what makes it out of committee .... It happens that way when the Democrats are in charge and when the Republicans are running the show. So transparency becomes a term used to hit each side over the head with depending on the particular issue...
M F Meyer
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RE:Health Care 22 Nov 2009 19:00 #366

mf_meyer wrote:
Yes in a perfect world that is how things are supposed to work ...You still miss the point that the majority party can a does control what will come up for debate on the floor, along with what makes it out of committee ...

No, I didn't miss the point at all. That's the rules of the game. When the Republicans have control, we don't get to do HealthCare reform. When the Democrats are in control, we get to try to do HealthCare reform. That's the whole meaning behind Obama's "Fierce Urgency of Now" motto. After the mid-term elections the Dems won't hold the majority in the Senate anymore (the party of the President always looses seats during the mid-term).

I do not need a review of Bill making 101. It happens that when the Democrats are in charge and when the Republicans are running the show. So transparency becomes a term used to hit each side over the head with depending on the particular issue... I will not even go into the timing factors of what and when things are released and how soon a vote is called for....
All of the procedures have been followed. There haven't been any "early votes". Not sure that is even possible. May be that it's earlier than Boehner and the rest of the Republicans would prefer, but the process has been followed all along.

Lack of transparency may be a talking point, but that doesn't make it any less untrue. The details of your accusation (behind closed doors......it was all on CSPAN, not allowing debate....there WAS NO BILL TO DEBATE!, no floor time allotted to present the bill.......THERE WAS NO BILL TO PRESENT, Republican bill not covered by the press...THERE WAS NO BILL TO COVER!, Mr Reid holding the card to what is presented on the floor...........yes you need "Bill Making 101 if you believe that) are blatantly incorrect with regard to how things work. Had the Republicans wanted to submit a bill, they could have done so. It would have been assigned a bill number and gone through the process. It probably wouldn't have gotten out of committee, but such is the process. Democrats have to live by the same rules and realities when the Republicans have control.
Karen Standefer
Southern Oregon
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RE:Health Care 23 Nov 2009 04:20 #367

KarenStandefer wrote:
All I have to say is that you have a very strange definition for transparency. But, I guess the whole Republican party does since they haven't seen fit to post their health care plan!

Karen, Sorry to post so late after my last comment and yours...

There is nothing transparent about anything going on in the Capitol...not now, not in the past, probably not in the future.

Old saying, favorite of mine..."If you can't convince them with the truth, baffle them with b-u-l-l-*******" --anonymous

Everything that comes out of a politicians mouth, or he produces with pen in hand is probably and more than likely the latter...no transparency there. 2000+ pages way too much excrement to be considered "see through"
:cool:www.blinddogforge.com

Bob Guyon JR.
Lakeside, CA

"Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Now lets the rest of us go on to Montana." -Augustus McCrae
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RE:Health Care 23 Nov 2009 13:15 #368

blinddogfarrier wrote:
Karen, Sorry to post so late after my last comment and yours...

There is nothing transparent about anything going on in the Capitol...not now, not in the past, probably not in the future.

Old saying, favorite of mine..."If you can't convince them with the truth, baffle them with b-u-l-l-*******" --anonymous

Everything that comes out of a politicians mouth, or he produces with pen in hand is probably and more than likely the latter...no transparency there. 2000+ pages way too much excrement to be considered "see through"

Like I said before..................there is as much transparency as the amount of effort you wish to make to find out what's going on. The 2000+ page document is really only like 200-300 pages if you were to consolidate it into a true written format. To repeat a liberal media talking point: Much better to be too verbose than to have a 3 page TARP bill that gives no oversite or rules.
Karen Standefer
Southern Oregon
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RE:Health Care 25 Nov 2009 10:54 #369

  • Scott Chaney
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I know this bill resembles very little or nothing to do with a free people, liberty or the parameters defined for the Federal government in the Constitution.
I personally hope it doesn't pass. You think taxes are high now?
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RE:Health Care 26 Nov 2009 01:17 #370

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it is obvious that this discussion is following the lines drawn by Lee A****er and the Republican Party circa Ronald Regan.
Divide the country and the minority will win.
When will we begin to appreciate the well being of the American people instead of the Corporate interests that have no social consience or sense of responsibility.
This is not about socialism it is about a moral imperative.
When we can stop the political participants from running for office and taking bribes in the form of political funding and start to get a group of legislators who care about the well being of the American people instead of their jobs we may be able to move forward.
The rantings of people like Rush, an Oxycontin addict and Glen Beck, simply an opportunistic parasite, are influencing the opinions of people who choose not to be informed , is the biggest danger to our social, not socialist, society. This is not far from the regimes of 1940's Europe,
Create hate and divide.
Let us all try to become educated and understand what is happening.
The Obama people are not the devil.
Get your head out of the sand and look at what is right for all Americans not the few that are only interested in their self interest.
Jack
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RE:Health Care 26 Nov 2009 13:56 #371

  • Mike Ferrara
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afajmmcjf wrote:
it is obvious that this discussion is following the lines drawn by Lee A****er and the Republican Party circa Ronald Regan.
Divide the country and the minority will win.

We are certainly divided.
When will we begin to appreciate the well being of the American people instead of the Corporate interests that have no social consience or sense of responsibility.

I love it...a Bill Press talking point. That doesn't sound like any of the corporations that I've worked for. Corporations compete for customers in the market place and must, therefor, please them. They compete for talent and labor in the work place and must, therefore, please them. The result is an organization that aims to please....as apposed to the government which just sets themselves up to live like a bunch of rock stars at our expense.


This is not about socialism it is about a moral imperative.

No, it's about socialism and the moral imperative here is to stop it.
When we can stop the political participants from running for office and taking bribes in the form of political funding and start to get a group of legislators who care about the well being of the American people instead of their jobs we may be able to move forward.


Two things are needed before we can even consider trusting any politician. The first is campaign finance reform. Voters aren't very smart and with enough advertising money you could elect a piece of fruit. Politicians compete for that money.

The second is the lifetime salaries need to END. Once they're in office, they're on easy street for the rest of their life. You can't hurt them by voting them out. That just puts them on permanent PAID vacation. That's not so bad. However, what most do, is use their political contacts to make millions more by bribing their former colleagues. They never again have to live as the people among the people.

In the mean time, it's of the utmost importance that we severely limit the reach of government in order to limit the damage they can do. In the context of this thread, it means keeping them out of the health care business.
The rantings of people like Rush, an Oxycontin addict and Glen Beck, simply an opportunistic parasite, are influencing the opinions of people who choose not to be informed , is the biggest danger to our social, not socialist, society. This is not far from the regimes of 1940's Europe,
Create hate and divide.

LOL lets listen to the rantings of Bill Press and Stephenie Miller instead.
The ongoing attempt to stick your hand further into my pocket and your nose further into my business is what causes hate and division. Mind your own business and we can be friends.

Let us all try to become educated and understand what is happening.
The Obama people are not the devil.

That would depend on your definition of evil, I guess. I'll skip over that term and just state that I don't want to live the way the Obama people want me to live and let it go at that.

Get your head out of the sand and look at what is right for all Americans not the few that are only interested in their self interest.
Jack

I'd rather you leave what's good for the Americans living in my house to me.
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RE:Health Care 26 Nov 2009 13:59 #372

  • Rick Burten
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afajmmcjf wrote:
it is obvious that this discussion is following the lines drawn by Lee A****er and the Republican Party circa Ronald Regan.
Divide the country and the minority will win.
Horsefeathers! This bill is a bad bill. period. In the end, everyone will lose. In his first year in office, the prez has spent 2.8 trillion dollars. More than any president in history and almost as much as the last two presidents combined. And what do we have to show for it? An economic stimulus? Puhleeze..... Low unemployment? Yeah, right. Strong stature among the nations of the world? Only if you think weakness, and apologista mentality and obsequence is strength.
When will we begin to appreciate the well being of the American people instead of the Corporate interests that have no social consience or sense of responsibility.
Without many aspects of corporations, the American people would'nt have any sense of well being? Do you really believe that politicians do? In my corner of the sandpile, we call that, naivety....
This is not about socialism it is about a moral imperative.
Whose 'moral imperative'? Certainly not mine. And apparently, not that of more that 50% of the citizens of this country.
When we can stop the political participants from running for office and taking bribes in the form of political funding and start to get a group of legislators who care about the well being of the American people instead of their jobs we may be able to move forward.
Ah, the utopian State. Perhaps we'll call it the United States of Xanadau.
The rantings of people like Rush, an Oxycontin addict and Glen Beck, simply an opportunistic parasite, are influencing the opinions of people who choose not to be informed , is the biggest danger to our social, not socialist, society.
Ridiculous. Face facts. This country is conservative by nature. And what's been going on for the last year since Obama got elected is a certain group of people peeing on the collective leg of America and then trying to convince us that its raining.
Let us all try to become educated and understand what is happening.
Apparently we have. What's your excuse?
The Obama people are not the devil.
Now you insult the devil by comparing the Obamaites to him. My guess is that he will not be pleased by such a derogatory and demeaning comparison.
Get your head out of the sand and look at what is right for all Americans not the few that are only interested in their self interest.
Jack
Again, apparently 'we' have. What's your excuse?

Rick
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In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Health Care 26 Nov 2009 17:30 #373

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As I said. Start looking at the facts.
They can be found in many Newspapers, books, and other objective publications.
God for bid people should take the time to read.
Divide and conquer.
same argument different bull.
Jack
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RE:Health Care 26 Nov 2009 22:10 #374

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afajmmcjf wrote:
As I said. Start looking at the facts.
They can be found in many Newspapers, books, and other objective publications.
Truly....ROTFLMAO! Which noble,nee, objective, publications might those be?
God for bid people should take the time to read.
To paraphrase Tina Turner, "What's God got to do with it?"
Divide and conquer.
same argument different bull.
Jack
You might want to consider who is responsible for the devisivness on the subject at hand. Hint: it is not those who are centrists or right of that position.

As noted, in its current itiration, the health care bill is just downright wrong. It is so wrong that even many of those who place their loyalties left of center are against it. Since you've stated that you believe that it is a 'moral imperative', I again ask you, "Whose moral imperative is it"? Certainly not the majority of Americans. At least with regard to this specific piece of legislation.

Next, perhaps you can tell me where the money to fund the inevitable new and quickly burgeoning bureaucracy that will administer the legislation is going to come from? Hint: More taxes. What do you think is going to happen when the 500 million dollars removed from Medicaid isn't enough and at the same time places a greater financial burden on the states to make up the difference? Who do you think is going to pay for that? How?

If this is such a good bit of legislation, then why do we Americans have to start paying for it immediately but do not get to see any benefits until 2014, which defacto raises the cost of the legislation to 982 +/- Billion over 6 years not the 10 years being touted by those who wish a rush to judgement on that legislation.

What do you think is going to happen to the "recovery" when corporations, large and small, don't have the money or the desire to 'invest in America'?

How are you going to feel, if, under this legislation, you or one of yours is denied care?

Want to see how well the government already deals with health care? Feast your eyes on the Veterans Administration.

I hope you'll take the time to respond to the questions/issues I posed.

On another note, you need to sign your legal first and last names to each and every post you make(forum rules, not mine) on any/every forum, or use your legal first and last names as your screen name.

Rick
(citizen of what used to be "the land of the free, home of the brave", but is fast becoming only the 'home of the brave.......")
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In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Health Care 27 Nov 2009 04:41 #375

Well said Rick and Mike-great posts.
Thanks,
Drew Stuart
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