make up natural cara make up make up tutorial make up korea make up minimalis make up artis make up mata belajar make up make up wardah alat make up makeup forever indonesia makeup artist jakarta tips make up barbie make up natural make up make up wajah make up pesta make up syahrini makeup mata makeup minimalis peralatan make up make up cantik make up mac make up kit jual make up make up sederhana perlengkapan make up gambar make up vidio make up cara makeup minimalis wardah make up make up pac make up glamour cara memakai makeup make up panggung harga make up make up modern make up alami make up dasar pixy make up make up muslimah make up oriflame make up jepang makeover cosmetic make up ultima make up sariayu grosir make up makeup fantasi makeup pesta tas makeup langkah make up make up pria make up malam alat makeup tahapan make up produk make up shading make up mak up make up kebaya make up jilbab make up inez make up simpel contoh make up cara ber makeup makeup wajah tanpa make up make up terbaru toko make up mac makeup indonesia make up soft urutan make up trik make up makeover makeup brand gusnaldi make up paket make up panduan make up jual makeup brush make up bagus alat2 make up make up gusnaldi aplikasi make up alat alat makeup dasar make up inez make up peralatan makeup make up wanita make up berjilbab make up tebal sejarah make up make up maybeline make up branded make up siang tata cara makeup reseller make up make up muslim make up maybelin warna make up tips make up artist rias make up make up mata make up artis belajar make up make up artist kursus make up kuas make up make up forever indonesia jual make up mac indonesia make up make up artist indonesia harga make up forever jual make up online make up pac make up forever jakarta make up oriflame jual make up forever make up online shop indonesia harga make up sekolah make up grosir make up harga make up maybelline jual make up murah make up terbaru mak up mac make up indonesia sofia make up make up kit murah mac makeup indonesia produk make up jual make up kit make up store indonesia make up forever academy jakarta toko make up online jual make up set jual make up mac make up beauty jual make up branded produk make up mac make up forever harga make up mac indonesia produk make up artis jual make up palette produk make up forever make up palette murah before after make up pengantin before after make up sendiri before n after hasil makeup contoh make up karakter contoh riasan pengantin before n after harga make up wisuda harga make up artist harga make up forever make up wisuda rias wisuda di jogja Daftar harga make up forever daftar harga make up mac daftar harga kosmetik make up forever makeup wisuda harga makeup wisuda kursus make up di yogyakarta kursus make up di jogja kursus make up jogja kursus make up yogyakarta kursus kecantikan di yogyakarta kursus kecantikan di jogja kursus make up artist di jogja kursus rias pengantin di jogja kursus rias di yogyakarta kursus tata rias di yogyakarta rias pengantin muslim jogja jasa kreasi jilbab wisuda yogyakarta jasa rias make up wisuda murah bagus bisa dpanggil tempat make uf di jigja yang bagus rias wisuda murah dan berkualitas yogyakarta pakar kreasi jilbab di jogja make uper natural yogya make up wisuda hijab area jogja make up dan kreasi jilbab yang bagus di jogja jasa make up natural untuk wisuda jogja makeup jogja make up jogja makeup yogyakarta make up yogyakarta makeup wisuda jogja make up wisuda jogja make up wisuda yogyakarta makeup wisuda yogyakarta
Sunday May 29, 2022
Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: AFA program a failure in Vermont

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 13 Aug 2009 11:56 #151

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
I'm not the least bit clairvoyant, so I could not possibly know why AFA members are paying dues. :) I do know what the AFA's mission statement says; I also know forging competitions and suchlike don't do squat to benefit the farrier industry and improve the welfare of the horse while certification unarguably does. With that thought in mind, I firmly believe the greatest contribution the AFA can make to the industry would be to devote its resources to making the public aware of the benefits of AFA certification after dropping the requirement for AFA membership that makes certification look like a ploy to gain recruits.

unbridled wrote:
Tom --

How do you suggest the AFA handle the many members, like myself, who paid dues to start the Certification process? Should the AFA refund memberships? It seems many join on the day of Certification and it seems like the AFA really needs that money???


I agree with both of you guys. Susan is correct that organizations need revenue to accomplish it's mission. Tom is also correct that perception of the organization is important. I think the ideas and concerns of both Susan and Tom can be accomplished. I nominate Susan and Tom for leadership positions in the AFA. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 13 Aug 2009 15:17 #152

  • Tom Stovall CJF
  • Tom Stovall CJF's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 3882
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
unbridled in gray

How do you suggest the AFA handle the many members, like myself, who paid dues to start the Certification process?

I don't believe many folks join the AFA solely for the purpose of testing - and I don't believe you did either. I congratulate you on your marriage to an accomplished farrier, but bedroom osmosis is not a viable means of gaining the knowledge and motor skills necessary to become an AFA certified farrier. In order to attain the basic level of competency implied by the CF credential, you'll need to shoe a few horses first.

Should the AFA refund memberships?

Assuming the AFA chose to make the public aware of their certification process, refunding dues to anyone who claims they joined the AFA solely for the purpose of standing for the certification process would be a small price to pay for the exponential gain in credibility within the industry for both the AFA and the AFA's certification program! Given the exclusionary nature of the AFA's wrongheaded requirement for membership before one is allowed to stand for the tests, the AFA's certification process is rightfully perceived as a ploy to gain members, not as a service to the industry. When AFA certification is opened to all comers, the AFA will once again be perceived as an organization intent on service to the industry, not just to itself. Self-interest verses altruism? It should be an easy choice for an organization that claims to be dedicated to the bettement of farrier industry, but it appears the AFA has lost sight of its mission statement.

It seems many join on the day of Certification

How many? Please be precise.

and it seems like the AFA really needs that money???

No matter how much money you feel the AFA "really needs," forcing folks to join the AFA in order to become AFA certified is counterproductive and extracts a toll of credibility far beyond any monetary value gained. If the AFA is to retain its niche as the premier farriery organization within the US, then AFA certification MUST be open up to all comers, a move that would effectively demonstrate the AFA's commitment to the betterment of farriery within the industry and assure the AFA of retaining its position atop the leader board.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 13 Aug 2009 17:59 #153

  • T.N. Trosin
  • T.N. Trosin's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Very Senior Member
  • Posts: 738
  • Karma: 0
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:

No matter how much money you feel the AFA "really needs," forcing folks to join the AFA in order to become AFA certified is counterproductive and extracts a toll of credibility far beyond any monetary value gained. If the AFA is to retain its niche as the premier farriery organization within the US, then AFA certification MUST be open up to all comers, a move that would effectively demonstrate the AFA's commitment to the betterment of farriery within the industry and assure the AFA of retaining its position atop the leader board.

I get sick of this argument; it's the same one you get from competitors. If you don't have enough faith in an organization, whoever the heck it is, to support it, don't take its certification, don't attend its competitions or other events. But by the same token, don’t get on the internet and tell the world that how the cow eats cabbage, cause you don’t know. The test is open to all who wish to take, the AFA just asks that you support the organization with a membership and I don’t think that’s too much in the grand scheme of things.

Now I realize that many of you have dropped your buck fifty and it wasn’t something you enjoyed, or you feel that you didn’t get your money’s worth and I respect that, but it doesn’t give you the right to blindly comment on how the AFA handles its affairs. If you want to complain and be taken seriously then pony up your dues, otherwise can it.

I will tell you all what Wayne Bair told me 17 years ago when I dropped my WSFA membership; “Good job d*mb a$$ you just lot your voice and your vote.” If the AFA and other organizations are daft enough to pay attention to any of you guy who aren’t dues paying members from today forward they are backing up. You guys hang out here at horseshoes and hate; I have a committee report to prepare.
Soliceter General Warning: This message may not have been spell checked for your protection
Just a piece of advice, think to yourself is this something I would say in front of a client, before your click the submit button.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 13 Aug 2009 20:44 #154

  • Tom Stovall CJF
  • Tom Stovall CJF's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 3882
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
T.N. Trosin in gray

I get sick of this argument; it's the same one you get from competitors.


While the state of your health is of utmost importance to me, your statement is illogical. In terms of contributions to the industry, AFA certification and forging/shoeing competitions are as different as ice cream and dog doo: the former benefits the entire industry by raising the overall quality of farriery; the latter benefits only a minuscule segment of the industry.

If you don't have enough faith in an organization, whoever the heck it is, to support it, don't take its certification, don't attend its competitions or other events.

I was there at the beginning. At its inception (c1980), AFA certification was intended to better the overall quality of farriery within the industry and sold to the chapters and prospective testees on that basis. It was originally open to all comers and presented to the industry as a means of raising the overall quality of farriery in the US, not as a means of swelling the membership rolls of the AFA. In the beginning, the AFA's original role was to develop and administer the tests, then to act as a repository for the results. I have been a supporter of open-to-the-world AFA certification since day one: How about you?

But by the same token, don’t get on the internet and tell the world that how the cow eats cabbage, cause you don’t know.


I not only know how the AFA cow ate the certification cabbage, I was there when she shaded up, watched her chew her cud, and saw where she recycled the cellulose! Where were you?

The test is open to all who wish to take, the AFA just asks that you support the organization with a membership and I don’t think that’s too much in the grand scheme of things.

Balderdash! The tests are open ONLY to AFA members, they are NOT open to everyone wishing to stand for the tests. By excluding non-members, the credibility of the tests is placed at risk because the requirement can and will be perceived as a recruiting ploy, not as a service to the industry. Get it through your head that AFA certification is not about benefiting the AFA, it's about benefit to the farrier industry!

Now I realize that many of you have dropped your buck fifty and it wasn’t something you enjoyed, or you feel that you didn’t get your money’s worth and I respect that, but it doesn’t give you the right to blindly comment on how the AFA handles its affairs.

If I ever "blindly comment" on anything the AFA does relative to the certification program, please be sure to let me know; meanwhile, I shall continue to point out the specific foolishness inherent to the AFA's requiring folks to join the AFA before taking the AFA's certification tests.

If you want to complain and be taken seriously then pony up your dues, otherwise can it.

The AFA can take me seriously, or not - but I'm going to point out the folly of a policy in which AFA membership is a requirement for certification whenever it pleases me to do so. I'm most assuredly not going to "can it" and you're not required to like my failure to do so; in fact, it'd kinda tickle me if you didn't. :)

I will tell you all what Wayne Bair told me 17 years ago when I dropped my WSFA membership; “Good job d*mb a$$ you just lot your voice and your vote.” If the AFA and other organizations are daft enough to pay attention to any of you guy who aren’t dues paying members from today forward they are backing up.

I'm not a dues paying AFA member - but I passed the CF in 1981 and I've been an AFA CJF since 1983 - which mean I'm fully vested in the AFA's certification process and thus entitled to criticize, philosophize, dissect, discuss and cuss any bloody facet of AFA certification that strikes my fancy and I don't much give a damn if anybody likes it or not.

You guys hang out here at horseshoes and hate; I have a committee report to prepare.

One hopes you do a better job at preparing committee reports than you do at debating issues affecting the AFA's certification program.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 14 Aug 2009 10:35 #155

  • tbloomer
  • tbloomer's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 4622
  • Thank you received: 20
  • Karma: 1
T.N. Trosin wrote:
If you want to complain and be taken seriously then pony up your dues, otherwise can it.
WHAT ABOUT YOUR REQUIREMENT OF PROOVING ONESELF FIRST AT THE LOCAL LEVEL BEFORE ONE CAN BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY?

How long does a greenhorn, newby, rookie have to kiss the AFA leadership's A$$ before they take them seriously? When you figure that out, put it in the bylaws so everybody knows what "paying dues" means.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 14 Aug 2009 12:05 #156

  • BPethick
  • BPethick's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Very Senior Member
  • Posts: 579
  • Karma: 0
For what it is worth in this argument...

I have been a AFA Examiner since 1988.
The AFA at that time and for many years required Chapter membership or regular membership in order to stand for certification testing.
It was difficult to verify chapter membership, so it was changed to require regular membership in the AFA.
The fees to the AFA have always been kept to a minimum to offset the expenses of the Certification program.
The Chapters that sponsored Certification charged whatever they needed to cover their expenses.
The Examiners and Testers have always donated their time and effort to the Certification Program.
Bob Pethick CJF AFA #1340
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Only those who have the patience to do things perfectly will acquire the skill to do difficult things easily...
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 14 Aug 2009 13:44 #157

  • tbloomer
  • tbloomer's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 4622
  • Thank you received: 20
  • Karma: 1
What would happen if the AFA charged a $500 testing fee and only gave a 10% discount to AFA members?

I'm asking because in my previous life I paid over $2500 in testing fees to get some of the certifications I got. The thought never ocurred to be that the cost was too high. In fact, because the certifications were so well promoted in the industry, each one was worth another $10k/year in salary. Sort of a no brainer. Heck, my last employer funded my tests and then gave me a raise as soon as I passed it, just to get me to stick around.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 14 Aug 2009 19:59 #158

Back to the original reason for the post. FYI, I received an e-mail from the AFA re. Region 5. Check your e-mail, if your in region 5 and did not get anything I will be happy to forward it to you.

I have been getting these all along, recognize the layout.
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 15 Aug 2009 02:03 #159

  • George Geist
  • George Geist's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 3336
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 3
Phil Armitage wrote:
I agree with both of you guys. Susan is correct that organizations need revenue to accomplish it's mission. Tom is also correct that perception of the organization is important.
Agreeing with both sides, now that's typical Phil LMYAO!:)

T.N. Trosin wrote:
I get sick of this argument; it's the same one you get from competitors. If you don't have enough faith in an organization, whoever the heck it is, to support it, don't take its certification, don't attend its competitions or other events. But by the same token, don’t get on the internet and tell the world that how the cow eats cabbage, cause you don’t know. The test is open to all who wish to take, the AFA just asks that you support the organization with a membership and I don’t think that’s too much in the grand scheme of things.
If you want to complain and be taken seriously then pony up your dues, otherwise can it.



Tom Stovall]
While the state of your health is of utmost importance to me, your statement is illogical. In terms of contributions to the industry, AFA certification and forging/shoeing competitions are as different as ice cream and dog doo: the former benefits the entire industry by raising the overall quality of farriery wrote:

Tom Stovall wrote:
]
Balderdash! The tests are open ONLY to AFA members, they are NOT open to everyone wishing to stand for the tests. By excluding non-members, the credibility of the tests is placed at risk because the requirement can and will be perceived as a recruiting ploy, not as a service to the industry. Get it through your head that AFA certification is not about benefiting the AFA, it's about benefit to the farrier industry!


If I ever "blindly comment" on anything the AFA does relative to the certification program, please be sure to let me know; meanwhile, I shall continue to point out the specific foolishness inherent to the AFA's requiring folks to join the AFA before taking the AFA's certification tests.


The AFA can take me seriously, or not - but I'm going to point out the folly of a policy in which AFA membership is a requirement for certification whenever it pleases me to do so. I'm most assuredly not going to "can it" and you're not required to like my failure to do so; in fact, it'd kinda tickle me if you didn't. :)


I'm not a dues paying AFA member - but I passed the CF in 1981 and I've been an AFA CJF since 1983 - which mean I'm fully vested in the AFA's certification process and thus entitled to criticize, philosophize, dissect, discuss and cuss any bloody facet of AFA certification that strikes my fancy and I don't much give a damn if anybody likes it or not.

tbloomer wrote:
WHAT ABOUT YOUR REQUIREMENT OF PROOVING ONESELF FIRST AT THE LOCAL LEVEL BEFORE ONE CAN BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY?

How long does a greenhorn, newby, rookie have to kiss the AFA leadership's A$$ before they take them seriously? When you figure that out, put it in the bylaws so everybody knows what "paying dues" means.

Uh, just for the record guys the Union doesn't require membership before one can stand for their test which is in fact open to the world:p:D
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 15 Aug 2009 02:08 #160

  • beslagsmed
  • beslagsmed's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 1798
  • Thank you received: 5
  • Karma: 0
Phil Armitage wrote:
Back to the original reason for the post. FYI, I received an e-mail from the AFA re. Region 5. Check your e-mail, if your in region 5 and did not get anything I will be happy to forward it to you.

I have been getting these all along, recognize the layout.

First one I ever got, and this is what I am talking about - wasn't so hard to do the e-mail thing. Minutes of meetings can be posted on the AFA site and/or e-mailed out as well. COMMUNICATION.
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 15 Aug 2009 02:28 #161

George Geist wrote:
Agreeing with both sides, now that's typical Phil LMYAO!:)

Their are no sides, just different ideas and opinions. Both Susan and Tom have made good points. I do not agree with everything Susan and Tom have said, but do agree with some of it. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 15 Aug 2009 02:47 #162

  • George Geist
  • George Geist's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 3336
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 3
Phil Armitage wrote:
Their are no sides, just different ideas and opinions. Both Susan and Tom have made good points. I do not agree with everything Susan and Tom have said, but do agree with some of it. :)
I can't wait for you to run for office Phil:);)
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 15 Aug 2009 03:02 #163

  • Gary Hill
  • Gary Hill's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 5298
  • Thank you received: 6
  • Karma: 4
Today I was going through some old boxes and came across a letter from March 1, 1979 and was basically the minutes of the AFA meeting. It even included the Treasurer's Report. AS soon as I can find my scanners DVD or CD to load on my laptop I will scan and print it here. Very interesting read .
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 15 Aug 2009 03:11 #164

  • tbloomer
  • tbloomer's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 4622
  • Thank you received: 20
  • Karma: 1
George Geist wrote:
Uh, just for the record guys the Union doesn't require membership before one can stand for their test which is in fact open to the world:p:D
George
Is membership in the union open to the whole world? I mean, what if the whole world joined? With whom would we do our collective bargaining? :confused:
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 15 Aug 2009 11:36 #165

  • George Geist
  • George Geist's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 3336
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 3
tbloomer wrote:
Is membership in the union open to the whole world? I mean, what if the whole world joined? With whom would we do our collective bargaining? :confused:
Horseshoers are our world, everyone else is a mere barbarian:D
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Kunena Birthday Module

  • Chris Daniel birthday is today
  • FordWayFarm birthday is today
  • Hillbilly898 birthday is today
  • Alykee07 birthday is in 1 day
  • Anvil375 birthday is in 1 day
  • Martin Kenny birthday is in 1 day
  • mattsherberg43 birthday is in 1 day
  • missjestr birthday is in 1 day
  • Mitch White birthday is in 1 day
  • ravensgate birthday is in 1 day
  • Tim Neal birthday is in 1 day
  • Tcasey1968 birthday is in 363 days
  • JWHORSESHOEING birthday is in 364 days
  • TheCircleT birthday is in 364 days
  • THOROBREDS birthday is in 364 days
Time to create page: 0.241 seconds

S5 Box

Register

*
*
*
*
*
*

Fields marked with an asterisk (*) are required.