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TOPIC: AFA program a failure in Vermont

RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 11 Aug 2009 01:15 #136

  • George Geist
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BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
George, you've been around longer than me, so let me ask this, Has it ever been promoted to the owners through magazines and other media in such a way to make it more visible and maybe more noticed? Or has it always been kept within the confines of the farreir world?
I believe it has. Perhaps not to the extent that Mr Stovall and others would like to see, but it has nonetheless and has been a failure. Say what you will about Ralph Casey I'll give credit where due in that the man could sell fleas to a dog. He has been trying to push it to owners unsuccessfully for at least 15 years now.
Would promoting it to the owners change anything or would things just stay the same?
I don't believe taking anything to owners would accomplish anything. They use who their friends use and follow a herd. What are the 2 questions you hear from any new customer?
1) What do you charge?
2) When can you get here?
Not necessarily in that order but that's what you hear right?

Aside from that, just let's suppose that AFA did spend a whole bunch of money promoting certification. Would that not promote a segment of their membership over the other dues paying members?

Also would not guys out there like Mike F speak against it to owners thus thwarting and undermining AFA's efforts?

Sorry but no. I don't see it working. It's been tried and has failed miserably for over 25 years. I'd say sanctions against Cuba would work faster:)
George
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RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 11 Aug 2009 01:23 #137

  • T.N. Trosin
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unbridled wrote:
How about polling the entire AFA membership?

Susan, you of all people know that less than 20% of the membership responds to polls that have been sent to the membership.

Happy Birthday by the way.
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RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 11 Aug 2009 01:34 #138

  • JD Sawyer
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Phil, great response, I commend you on your personal drive and ambition for setting goals for yourself and following through on them.

However let’s look at the realistic business aspect faced by the guy with two kids one who needs braces and one who needs money for the class trip. This guy may have lofty goals and ambitions but right now he has bills to take care of so is it going to profit his business? Will he be able to up his fees after he gets the card? When will he see a return on the investment?

Whether it is AFA BWFA or WCF is of no concern to the horse owning public CJF doesn’t mean squat and until it does no one is going to pay extra for a CJF to shoe there horse.

The AFA and the BWFA have dropped the ball in a big way and neither of them can seem to pull there heads out of there butts to see it.
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RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 11 Aug 2009 01:47 #139

  • George Geist
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JD Sawyer wrote:
Whether it is AFA BWFA or WCF is of no concern to the horse owning public CJF doesn’t mean squat and until it does no one is going to pay extra for a CJF to shoe there horse.
Actually JD you bring up an interesting point.

In this area and I'm sure in many others most people who own horses truth be told really can't afford them. If certification was to become a reason to charge more I'd bet it would work opposite as hoped and would wind up costing guys more work than it got them.

I've seen it happen with a company that employed welders. Certification was strongly discouraged for fear they'd have to pay more. They wouldn't hire certified guys but instead chose to train their own at about half the wage of a certified welder. Not only did they save money but their people couldn't quit because being non-certified they had no hope of working anywhere else.
Cute operation eh?

I'd urge that guys try not to tie this thing to money because that same scenario is liable to happen.
George
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RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 11 Aug 2009 02:26 #140

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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George Geist in gray, stuff deleted

Not sure why it was changed but fact of the matter is it has only been for members only for the last couple of years.

I don't know for sure, but I think that wrongheaded silliness requiring AFA membership before certification was enacted in the mid 1990s.

For the last 25 or so years it was open to the world it was really no different.

Shoers themselves didn't promote it, customers didn't care, and it never really helped anybody's business but always did foster divisiveness in the industry as it still does.


The only folks with whom the AFA's tests fostered divisiveness were those who couldn't pass the tests on their best day. As I see it, the CJF practical is difficult unless you're working hot iron every day, but the CF is a walk in the park for any experienced farrier and should be promoted as a starting place, not a stopping place. It used to be called the "basic" test for good reason: it's just a test of basics.

Mr Stovall, What exactly makes you think it would be any different if they were to open it to non-members when we have a clear as crystal track record of it never having mattered before?


If you hide you light under a bushel, nobody knows it's lit! In order for AFA certification to benefit the public, they have know it exists and it MUST be open to all comers. It's not a recruiting campaign for AFA membership, certification is a means of elevating the quality of farriery available to the American public within the industry. Say what you will, but an AFA CF is a benchmark that should be achievable for anyone calling himself a farrier - and the public could be made aware of this. With their finger firmly on the pulse of the American horseowning public, the AFA has chosen to promote their damned shoeing contests in national publications like the Western Horseman, but has NEVER made any sort of concerted effort to let the horse owning world know about AFA certification and its benefits. Imagine how the industry might benefit if the AFA devoted its resources to promoting certification instead of contests and a shoeing team.

This is not exactly a new idea. It was done that way before and was no significant difference.

If you keep it something a secret, nobody knows it exists. For the last 29 years, the AFA has chosen to keep certification a secret: What do you think would happen if they opened certification up to the world and ran a few ads in rags like Equus promoting certification (not AFA membership) and promoted certification instead of contests and a meaningless shoeing team on the AFAS website?

It wouldn't take much to create a demand for AFA certified farriers, but it'll never happen if the tests are perceived as exclusionary - and it'll sure as hell never happen until the AFA aggressively promotes AFA certification instead of meaningless shoeing contests.
Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 11 Aug 2009 02:31 #141

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Originally Posted by beslagsmed
If there is no communication problem, then would you please provide the link so I can on the AFA website view the minutes from the past BOD meeting, or where and how my and other member's dues are spent? Seems I remember there were also AFA Forums, can you give the link to their active forums so we can present questions to the Office holders? It might be that more than one member has the same question and this would save time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary_Miller
Say what? From the very first day I became aquanted with the AFA communication has been the biggest complaint I have heard.

Phil, now you are really making me laugh. Go look at the AFA web site. I would not call that taking advantage of the technology available today.

Your right, but one will never know the AFA side as it keep a secret unless you go chasing it down and then I'm not sure you get the straight facts.

Whats the fix?

Phil Armitage wrote:
Guys, if you are having problems receiving information then contact your reps or the home office. This is what I do when I want to find something out and it works very well. I have never had a problem getting in touch with someone in the AFA.

Phil,
You never answered the question - what's the link to theforums? And don't tell me it is a security problem. This site has login, other forums on the net have logins, the old AFA site had logins. I know you don't understand because you think minutes of a meeting are a waste of time. This is the same stance the AFA takes about communication. So as with Gary, I agree.
Mikel Dawson, RJF

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RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 11 Aug 2009 02:37 #142

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Perhaps there are some who have never seen the AFA Certification Guide. The following paragraphs are from page #1:

Since 1971, the mission of the American Farrier's Association (AFA) has focused on upgrading equine welfare through excellence in the practice of equine hoof care and farriery. Educating farriers in the art and science of farriery has been central to this goal. By expanding knowledge and honing physical skills through the AFA's education and certification programs, AFA farriers provide better, more professional services to horses and the people who use and enjoy them.

The AFA's Certification Program began in 1981. It stresses standardized examination processes designed to assess trimming and shoeing skills. In addition to testing these "hands-on" aspects of competency, the program includes written examinations designed to test comprehension of equine anatomy, physiology, and biomechanics.

Participation in the program is voluntary and is one of the many benefits available to American Farrier's Association members. The testing process is challenging, but the rewards are great. Farriers who participate in the program increase their knowledge and hone their physical skills through accepting the challenge of the certification process. Ultimately, the program provides an avenue for farriers to distinguish themselves to their colleagues, their peers, and the horse-owning public.
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RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 11 Aug 2009 02:37 #143

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
I don't know for sure, but I think that wrongheaded silliness requiring AFA membership before certification was enacted in the mid 1990s.


It wouldn't take much to create a demand for AFA certified farriers, but it'll never happen if the tests are perceived as exclusionary - and it'll sure as hell never happen until the AFA aggressively promotes AFA certification instead of meaningless shoeing contests.

Ok,
Let me ask you this then. As staunch an advocate you are of this thing, would you have stood for the certification tests back when you did if it had required AFA membership?
George
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RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 11 Aug 2009 03:09 #144

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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George Geist in gray

Ok, Let me ask you this then. As staunch an advocate you are of this thing, would you have stood for the certification tests back when you did if it had required AFA membership?

Nossir, then as now, unless it's open to the world with everybody taking a standardized test, passing would've just be an ego massage and as utterly meaningless as the BWFA's claptrap. The TPFA's tests predated the AFA's, at least here in Texas. At the time, if you passed the CF, you had to pass several intermediate steps before you were allowed to stand for the CJF. Please see http://web.wt.net/~stovall/jnymn.html
Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 11 Aug 2009 09:47 #145

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
I don't know for sure, but I think that wrongheaded silliness requiring AFA membership before certification was enacted in the mid 1990s.
Actually it was much later. Around 2006.
Imagine how the industry might benefit if the AFA devoted its resources to promoting certification instead of contests and a shoeing team.
It is logical to think that if certification was promoted to the public, those farriers who wanted to be certified or were already certified wouldn't have a problem paying membership dues to help offset the advertising costs.

OTOH, a member organization should serve the interests of the majority of its membership. With an uncertified majority one could make a logical arguement that promoting certification does not serve the interests of the membership.

Since the contest and the team is no secret to the dues paying members, one could argue that the membership is fully aware of their support for the contest and the team. Does this serve thier interests? The logical answer is no, OR IS IT?. How can it be illogical? The AFA was built on contesting. Every farrier who has established "prowess in the fire" through contesting has also gained a "following" (a group of fans and admirers) as a result of their forging exploits. By virtue of their prowess in the fire, farriers establish themselves as "authorities on shoeing horses." Team members of today are the clinicians of tomorrow.

One could say that the forging contest "provides an avenue for farriers to distinguish themselves to their colleagues, their peers, and the horse-owning public."
What do you think would happen if they opened certification up to the world and ran a few ads in rags like Equus promoting certification (not AFA membership) and promoted certification instead of contests and a meaningless shoeing team on the AFAS website?
Then the membership dues would be spent on promoting something that does not benefit the majority of the membership.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 11 Aug 2009 13:21 #146

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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tbloomer in gray

Re: AFA membership as a requisite for AFA certification.

Actually it was much later. Around 2006.


If memory serves, there was an intermediate step in which chapter members were not required to join the AFA before testing. As advertised, I'm not sure when the AFA decided to use certification as a recruiting ploy.

It is logical to think that if certification was promoted to the public, those farriers who wanted to be certified or were already certified wouldn't have a problem paying membership dues to help offset the advertising costs.


Promoting AFA certification benefits the entire industry by raising the quality of farriery available to the public, not necessarily the AFA's membership.

OTOH, a member organization should serve the interests of the majority of its membership. With an uncertified majority one could make a logical arguement that promoting certification does not serve the interests of the membership.

Not so. A non-profit farriery organization exists to serve the industry of farriery, not farriers or any particular segment of its membership.

Since the contest and the team is no secret to the dues paying members, one could argue that the membership is fully aware of their support for the contest and the team.

In reality, the contest and the team do not serve the industry in any way.

Does this serve thier interests? The logical answer is no, OR IS IT?. How can it be illogical? The AFA was built on contesting.

Nossir, the AFA was built on service to the industry of farriery at the grassroots level, primarily at the local, state and regional levels with the chapters doing the heavy lifting. It's not a good ol' boys club comprised of CJFs as it sometimes appears.

Every farrier who has established "prowess in the fire" through contesting has also gained a "following" (a group of fans and admirers) as a result of their forging exploits.

LMAO! Camp followers and groupies comprise a relatively small segment of the industry.

By virtue of their prowess in the fire, farriers establish themselves as "authorities on shoeing horses." Team members of today are the clinicians of tomorrow.

Ability in one area does not imply ability in another. A good hand is not necessarily a good teacher: Those team members who are good clinicians serve the industry well; however, not all team members are good clinicians, primarily because they cannot relate to folks who have no interest in forging shoes.

One could say that the forging contest "provides an avenue for farriers to distinguish themselves to their colleagues, their peers, and the horse-owning public."

One could say that, but the statement would be illogical because forging/shoeing contests have very little relationship to pragmatic farriery. (When was the last time you nailed on a calk and wedge? A French bar? A roadster shoe?) On the other hand, AFA certification serves to demonstrate to colleagues, peers and the horse-owning public that one has volunteered to measure one's knowledge and motor skills against an arbitrary standard.

Then the membership dues would be spent on promoting something that does not benefit the majority of the membership.

To reiterate, the AFA is NOT a farrier organization, it's a farriery organization. The Guild, JHU and even the BWFA are dedicated to farriers; the AFA is supposedly dedicated to the entire industry of farriery, not just farriers - hence the 501(C)(3).
Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 11 Aug 2009 14:52 #147

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
tbloomer in gray

Actually it was much later. Around 2006.

If memory serves, there was an intermediate step in which chapter members were not required to join the AFA before testing. As advertised, I'm not sure when the AFA decided to use certification as a recruiting ploy.
Ok, os it was around 2006 is when chapter membership wasn't enough - got changed to AFA membership.
Promoting AFA certification benefits the entire industry by raising the quality of farriery available to the public, not necessarily the AFA's membership.
I agree that this potential exists. Far as I know, it hasn't been tried.
Not so. A non-profit farriery organization exists to serve the industry of farriery, not farriers or any particular segment of its membership.
You're sayin' what is supposed to be, not what actually exists.
In reality, the contest and the team do not serve the industry in any way.
This has to do with what is supposed to be served, not with what actually is served.
Nossir, the AFA was built on service to the industry of farriery at the grassroots level, primarily at the local, state and regional levels with the chapters doing the heavy lifting. It's not a good ol' boys club comprised of CJFs as it sometimes appears.
Hmmmmm. Besides the DFA can you name a grassroots local farrier organization that has not hosted a forging competition ever?
LMAO! Camp followers and groupies comprise a relatively small segment of the industry.
Nonetheless, a squeeking wheel gets greased.
To reiterate, the AFA is NOT a farrier organization, it's a farriery organization. The Guild, JHU and even the BWFA are dedicated to farriers; the AFA is supposedly dedicated to the entire industry of farriery, not just farriers - hence the 501(C)(3).
You're sayin' what is supposed to be, not what actually exists.

Aren't AFA members paying dues because they believe the organization is what it is supposed to be?
Tom Bloomer
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RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 11 Aug 2009 17:06 #148

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Here to join the farrier union, one must first go through the testing and Certification process. One can be a Certified farrier and not be a member of the Farrier's Union. It was only after a threat of a law requiring all farriers to be Certified I had more people ask me if I was a Certified Farrier - now I can answer yes. I have been suprised how many people ask me if I was Certified. It has also helped my working relationship with Vets. The Vet Union highly discourages Vet from working with uncertified Farriers and they will not recomment any non certified farriers. The threat of a law is still in the air and I'm not for it, but I feel sooner or later it will come.

I believe if the AFA opened certification to all, more farriers would take it up. Also the AFA has to put it out to the public more. If the horse owning public don't know they don't care.
Mikel Dawson, RJF

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RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 11 Aug 2009 17:29 #149

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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tbloomer

Ok, os it was around 2006 is when chapter membership wasn't enough - got changed to AFA membership.


Enough what? Incentive to join the AFA? For 29 years, the AFA has done NOTHING to promote AFA certification within the industry while pimping meaningless contests and a shoeing team.

I agree that this potential exists. Far as I know, it hasn't been tried.

My point exactly.

You're sayin' what is supposed to be, not what actually exists.


Well, there's that pesky AFA mission statement:

"To further the professional development of farriers, to provide leadership and resources for the benefit of the farrier industry and to improve the welfare of the horse through continuing farrier education."


This has to do with what is supposed to be served, not with what actually is served.


Should one strive to achieve the stated ideals or remain satisfied with the status quo?

Hmmmmm. Besides the DFA can you name a grassroots local farrier organization that has not hosted a forging competition ever?

I don't know much about other associations, but at one time, the TPFA hosted the richest forging/shoeing competition in the world. Jack Miller designed the format so it was geared toward the working farrier and embodied shoes farriers nail on ever day in THIS country - everything from a straight bar shoe for a tiny-footed QH to draft horse pulling shoes with jump welded grabs. As I recall, the joinery rules were, "Welded, brazed, or tied in a knot." I thoroughly enjoyed participating a couple of times because it was the same stuff I did every day and there was money to be made.

Nonetheless, a squeeking wheel gets greased.

If a wheel is making any noise, I've always found it best to change out the bearings instead of just slathering on a little grease. Why piddle around with half-assed measures?

You're sayin' what is supposed to be, not what actually exists.

Aren't AFA members paying dues because they believe the organization is striving to be what it is supposed to be?


I'm not the least bit clairvoyant, so I could not possibly know why AFA members are paying dues. :) I do know what the AFA's mission statement says; I also know forging competitions and suchlike don't do squat to benefit the farrier industry and improve the welfare of the horse while certification unarguably does. With that thought in mind, I firmly believe the greatest contribution the AFA can make to the industry would be to devote its resources to making the public aware of the benefits of AFA certification after dropping the requirement for AFA membership that makes certification look like a ploy to gain recruits.
Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:AFA program a failure in Vermont 13 Aug 2009 02:10 #150

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Tom --

How do you suggest the AFA handle the many members, like myself, who paid dues to start the Certification process? Should the AFA refund memberships? It seems many join on the day of Certification and it seems like the AFA really needs that money???
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