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TOPIC: Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses!

Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses! 29 Jul 2009 16:35 #1

Well, since the ban on toe-grabs in 2009 did not sit well with many trainers; and a result, the 4mm toe grab, also called a California toe; is back in use.

Horses were breaking down with toe grabs; they broke down without toe grabs!!!!!!!!!!
NOW....... may be we need to look at bringing back the Union test and test platers aptitude for shoeing racehorses??
Also, to test or to be tested to be licenced as platers, regular farriers to shoe TB's OFF the track that are on TB breeding farms.
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RE:Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses! 29 Jul 2009 20:52 #2

  • Donnie Walker
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They're still regulated in Texas. No grabs greater than 2mm (TB) 4mm (QH) - fronts only.
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RE:Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses! 29 Jul 2009 21:20 #3

  • George Geist
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ladyblacksmith wrote:
Well, since the ban on toe-grabs in 2009 did not sit well with many trainers; and a result, the 4mm toe grab, also called a California toe; is back in use.

Horses were breaking down with toe grabs; they broke down without toe grabs!!!!!!!!!!
NOW....... may be we need to look at bringing back the Union test and test platers aptitude for shoeing racehorses??
Also, to test or to be tested to be licenced as platers, regular farriers to shoe TB's OFF the track that are on TB breeding farms.
Good to my word not to discuss this issue at this time publically I won't.

What I will do is place blame for catastrophic breakdowns where it belongs. 10% of the time it falls into the "excrement happens" category.

The other 90% of the time it is because of people running hurting horses. This would not be possible if a zero tolerance policy for drug use was strictly enforced. This includes Lasix! No horse should be competing on anything other than water, oats and hay. If they can't run around a track without drugs is high time they start breeding some that can.

This is not about shoeing. Never was.
George
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RE:Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses! 29 Jul 2009 23:08 #4

  • Failboat
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Lasix is retarded. Toe grabs should have never been banned. It boils down to each states racing commissions and stewards kissing liberal ass and bowing down to PETA and other self proclaimed crusaders...
A.W. Hinson, Jr.
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RE:Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses! 29 Jul 2009 23:21 #5

  • JStaples
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ladyblacksmith wrote:
Well, since the ban on toe-grabs in 2009 did not sit well with many trainers; and a result, the 4mm toe grab, also called a California toe; is back in use.

Horses were breaking down with toe grabs; they broke down without toe grabs!!!!!!!!!!
NOW....... may be we need to look at bringing back the Union test and test platers aptitude for shoeing racehorses??
Also, to test or to be tested to be licenced as platers, regular farriers to shoe TB's OFF the track that are on TB breeding farms.

ladyblacksmith,

can you be more specific as to where the rule has changed to allow 4 mm toe grabs.

John Staples
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RE:Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses! 30 Jul 2009 02:16 #6

  • dave murray
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I read that in Fran Jurgas blog, 2mm to 4mm, big deal like 2mm is going to make a difference. in 6 inches of sand.
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RE:Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses! 30 Jul 2009 03:03 #7

  • George Geist
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dave murray wrote:
I read that in Fran Jurgas blog, 2mm to 4mm, big deal like 2mm is going to make a difference. in 6 inches of sand.
I suspect it was in response to guys filing down the rims on outer rims to expose a 4mm toe. It seemed to open a new can of worms as far as ways to cheat so one can only speculate that it was futile to continue shoveling sand against the tide.

Again it will be up to individual jurisdictions as to what they'll do but in most cases JC recommendations are usually followed.

This has been creating a bit of an expensive problem for manufacturers with having to change tooling and such. Ultimately it will probably lead to higher racing plate prices so they can offset some of their losses.
George
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RE:Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses! 30 Jul 2009 03:49 #8

I wholeheartedly agee w/ George Geist. When you factor in all the **** that racehorses go through in their short careers, I'd bet toe grabs are an extremely minor factor at best to 99.99% of breakdowns. Ive galloped for more trainers than I can count on my hands since I was 15 (I quit a year ago)and I know why horses break down--It isnt whether or not they have toe grabs. Usually it seemed like almost every other horse I worked had a grade 1-3 lameness--usually they were 2yo's or nice old guys that shoulda been retired a year or more ago(riding horses like this makes you feel like an ***hole)--the trainers nearly always turned a blind eye and made sure they were in the next suitable race. Sloppy riding, poor diets, drugs, and greedy trainers/owners are to blame for racehorses breaking down. On the rare occasion that it was arguable that shoeing/hoof balance was to blame for a breakdown it wasnt because of a toegrab/shoe or the ability of its farrier, it was because the trainer raced/worked the horse when it was well over due for new shoes.
...I could go on for ever.
Drew
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RE:Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses! 30 Jul 2009 04:16 #9

Id like to make clear that Im not another one of those "bleeding heart" types. I have lots of friends and family directly involved in the industry and I strongly defend/love horse racing. I just think that the toegrab debate has gotten WAY more attention than it deserves...JMO:rolleyes:
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RE:Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses! 30 Jul 2009 10:48 #10

  • JStaples
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dave murray wrote:
I read that in Fran Jurgas blog, 2mm to 4mm, big deal like 2mm is going to make a difference. in 6 inches of sand.

Dave,thanks for the reference from Fran Jurga.

Obviously toe grabs are not the whole problem with thoro-bred un-soundness but at least the people making shoe rules are realizing that one type of shoe is not suitable for all racetracks.

If only 'they' would realize that one or two types of shoes are not suitable for all racehorses.

john
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RE:Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses! 30 Jul 2009 12:16 #11

  • Failboat
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Drew Stuart wrote:
I wholeheartedly agee w/ George Geist. When you factor in all the **** that racehorses go through in their short careers, I'd bet toe grabs are an extremely minor factor at best to 99.99% of breakdowns. Ive galloped for more trainers than I can count on my hands since I was 15 (I quit a year ago)and I know why horses break down--It isnt whether or not they have toe grabs. Usually it seemed like almost every other horse I worked had a grade 1-3 lameness--usually they were 2yo's or nice old guys that shoulda been retired a year or more ago(riding horses like this makes you feel like an ***hole)--the trainers nearly always turned a blind eye and made sure they were in the next suitable race. Sloppy riding, poor diets, drugs, and greedy trainers/owners are to blame for racehorses breaking down. On the rare occasion that it was arguable that shoeing/hoof balance was to blame for a breakdown it wasnt because of a toegrab/shoe or the ability of its farrier, it was because the trainer raced/worked the horse when it was well over due for new shoes.
...I could go on for ever.
Drew


All athletes have a lameness issue and they all break down. Horsemen today are just terrible. The trainers test is ******ly retarded. You can watch a video at home for a few hours go to the stewards and ask for the barn test and bam....Thats my view on it. It aint the greedy trainer. It's the trainer who is not a horseman even though his sticker says he is. It has to be this way though. If it weren't the industry would deflate.
A.W. Hinson, Jr.
Semper Fi Farrier Service
Farrier
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RE:Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses! 31 Jul 2009 18:44 #12

  • Left Bank
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ladyblacksmith wrote:
Well, since the ban on toe-grabs in 2009 did not sit well with many trainers; and a result, the 4mm toe grab, also called a California toe; is back in use.

Horses were breaking down with toe grabs; they broke down without toe grabs!!!!!!!!!!
NOW....... may be we need to look at bringing back the Union test and test platers aptitude for shoeing racehorses??
Also, to test or to be tested to be licenced as platers, regular farriers to shoe TB's OFF the track that are on TB breeding farms.

It is back in use because too many horses were stumbling out of the gate.So they reinstated the 4 mm shoes.Delaware park did a study on it and was the first to reinstate the 4mm.
http://www.paulickreport.com/blog/delaware-switches-on-toe-grabs-do-they-keep-horses-from-stumbling/
A horse is a horse,of course,of course!!
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RE:Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses! 31 Jul 2009 19:54 #13

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Failboat in gray

Toe grabs should have never been banned.

They haven't been banned on hinds here in Texas.

It boils down to each states racing commissions and stewards kissing liberal ass

Balderdah! The SRCs that have banned grabs on fronts have done so primarily on the basis of several university studies that compared the statistical incidence of catastrophic breakdowns of horses running with grabs vs running without garbs. Once banned, how much ass smooching do you feel is involved in the concept of, "Fair for one, fair for all?"

and bowing down to PETA

Ingrid, "a boy is a rat", Newkirk and the lunatic fringe who comprise PETA were/are against all animal use: livestock growing, hunting, racing, horse shows, rodeos, circuses, horses, zoos, etc. In reality, PETA didn't have damn-all to do with banning grabs on fronts, you'll have to blame that on common sense, dead Greeks and live scientists.

and other self proclaimed crusaders...

I sincerely hope I had some small part in getting grabs on fronts banned. I've been lecturing vets and vet students, preaching to trainers, grinding off grabs and in general crusading against grabs on fronts since the early 1980s, simply because there's no reason for them - other than bowing to the incredibly foolish daddydiditthataway mentality that seems to infect many trainers. Once forward motion is established, the carpus is locked, the front hoof is weight supporting immediately on impact and remains loaded through the fetlock descending and fetlock ascending phases of motion, at which time the shoulder has passed over the hoof; in other words, front end DOES NOT pull, the horse is strictly a rear wheel drive model. Inertia, not the front end's "pull," maintains forward motion. The physics are inescapable.

Since you appear to be a proponent of grabs on fronts of race horses, I've got to ask: Have you ever seen an ultra slow motion video or movie of a race horse in motion? [Extra credit: Why is this germane?]

The only time a runner pulls with his fronts is away from the gates, and that's only for a few strides. If you feel there's ever a viable reason for grabs on fronts, please share it with this forum - but please don't say anything silly like, "A horse pulls with his front end while he's running."
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses! 31 Jul 2009 21:13 #14

  • Mike Ferrara
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Did the ban on toe grabs result in a significant decrease in catastrophic breakdowns?
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RE:Return of the toe grabs on TB racehorses! 31 Jul 2009 22:01 #15

  • George Geist
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For another fun place to play........
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Come over and say hello.
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