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TOPIC: Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread

RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 03 Jul 2009 22:26 #31

George Geist wrote:
...Only point I'm trying to make here is that there are many entities representing different divergent interests all at the same table.
I thought the point you were trying to make is that it's okay if you do it, but not okay if someone else does.

In any case, it's difficult to find a farrier who doesn't have some interest(s) outside of his/her regular farrier practice. Especially as we begin to get a bit older, we tend to recognize that we might not be able to shoe forever. Subsequently, we involve ourselves in other income-producing ventures, and we tend to gravitate to what we know and what we're familiar with. In effect, we stay within the industry. Bruce is producing a training harness, dvd's, and offering clinics; Mr. Tom is doing artistic & architectural blacksmithing and fabrication: Patty is teaching for the ELPO; Baron quit shoeing and started this site.

Others are selling clothing, making tools, running schools, working with manufacturers, and so forth. Danny Ward works with Diamond, runs a school, and shoes horses; Myron McLane produces aprons, pads, does clinics for Mustad, and shoes horses; Chris Gregory does clinics for Mustad, runs a school, and shoes horses, and the list goes on. And what about all those guys who sell Farrier's Formula out of the back of their trucks; they must be horribly tainted!

It's a relatively small and interdependent community, and if you limit volunteer opportunities so that only those who keep to themselves are eligible, you'll run out of volunteers pretty quickly.

George Geist wrote:
...To best of my recollection the 501(c)(3) deal didn't happen until the very late '90s or maybe early 2000. That prohibits them from political activity yes but surely not from encouraging stock purchase. Even if it did it was long before that deal so it would have been no problem.
The AFA began as a 501(c)(3), lost the status in the mid-1990's, and regained it in the early 2000's.

As for "encouraging stock purchase," give me a break! If the AFA were to encourage the purchase of any particular stock, you would go nuts, yet you're denigrating them for not having done it!?!#* I'm reminded of the old story about the guy who walked on water and got abused for not knowing how to swim.

George Geist wrote:
...The way that 501(c)(3) deal happened was I thought pretty trashy too but let's not even go there.

Go ahead and go there. I'd like to know what was "trashy" about it.

George Geist wrote:
...Nobody has any problem with doing business. Having others that might not necessarily be in the best interests of a group's membership sitting on that group's BOD is a bit more than just doing business.
Yep. Every time I go to the polls, I look for the candidate who has no life experience other than serving as a career politician. When I want to take a class, I look for the teacher who started teaching straight out of school and has no work experience. There's just nothing like finding those pure, untainted people and placing them in leadership roles.

I'm pretty convinced at this point that you're only happy if you're b*tchin' about the way someone else does something. Or maybe you're only happy if you're playing the Devil's Advocate (as if he needed an advocate)....
~~Danvers

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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 03 Jul 2009 22:58 #32

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George Geist wrote:
Just a realist Phil,

realist or socialist?

george] Have you a specific example of something I've said that you think I'm incorrect about?
George[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=George Geist wrote:
Is a whole different subject entirely. JHU built the AFL.
Funny I always thought it was a guy named Goompers(?sp)

George Giest]
Those guys had their beginnings as a Union back in '36 when they were known as the Turtles.[/quote]
In 36 they didn't form, 60 guys agreed to walk out of a rodeo in Boston MA

[QUOTE=George Geist wrote:
I'm not bad mouthing sponsors.

George Geist wrote:
When Mustad destroyed Simonds rasp company and threw hundreds of Americans out of work I and a few others found that reprehensible.

Simonds is still in business as far as I know.http://www.simondsinternational.com/
George Geist wrote:
why didn't AFA encourage every horseshoer in the country through the AFJ to buy as many shares of Capewell as they could afford?

Because Capewell wasn't publicly held?

George Giest wrote:
People the Union does business with if we find them to be not friendly to us or working against our best interests they'll quickly join the ranks of those we no longer do business with.

Like Race Platers in California? And yes I will always bring that up.
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 04 Jul 2009 11:42 #33

George Geist wrote:
Well that's good to know. Any chance of drafting Walt to run for president?????????:D
George,

As distressing as you may find it. The founder and long time President of the AFA is no longer qualified to be a candidate for President.:eek: He is not a CJF.:(
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 04 Jul 2009 12:31 #34

  • George Geist
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danverschild wrote:
In any case, it's difficult to find a farrier who doesn't have some interest(s) outside of his/her regular farrier practice. Especially as we begin to get a bit older, we tend to recognize that we might not be able to shoe forever. Subsequently, we involve ourselves in other income-producing ventures, and we tend to gravitate to what we know and what we're familiar with. In effect, we stay within the industry. Bruce is producing a training harness, dvd's, and offering clinics; Mr. Tom is doing artistic & architectural blacksmithing and fabrication: Patty is teaching for the ELPO; Baron quit shoeing and started this site.

Others are selling clothing, making tools, running schools, working with manufacturers, and so forth. Danny Ward works with Diamond, runs a school, and shoes horses; Myron McLane produces aprons, pads, does clinics for Mustad, and shoes horses; Chris Gregory does clinics for Mustad, runs a school, and shoes horses, and the list goes on. And what about all those guys who sell Farrier's Formula out of the back of their trucks; they must be horribly tainted!
A few of the individuals you mentioned aren't even members as far as I know so not really sure how much they care about the doings of the AFA.
It's a relatively small and interdependent community, and if you limit volunteer opportunities so that only those who keep to themselves are eligible, you'll run out of volunteers pretty quickly.
Nobody has any problem with volunteers either. Is not what we're talking about. To be as crystal clear as possible lets try it this way:
To my way of thinking I believe the guys out there getting the job done-the working horseshoer, ought to rightfully be the foremost priority of any organization they choose to hold a membership in.
Do you think those who make their living off of the trade should be higher on the list of priorities than those who make their living in the trade?
The AFA began as a 501(c)(3), lost the status in the mid-1990's, and regained it in the early 2000's.
That I didn't know. If that's the case what led to that?
As for "encouraging stock purchase," give me a break! If the AFA were to encourage the purchase of any particular stock, you would go nuts, yet you're denigrating them for not having done it!?!#* I'm reminded of the old story about the guy who walked on water and got abused for not knowing how to swim.
I'd go nuts? Why? I thought it a good idea back then I still do now.



T.N. Trosin wrote:


Funny I always thought it was a guy named Goompers(?sp)
Samuel Gompers was the first president and a great labor leader in his own right. Fitzpatrick was one of the ones who helped form AFL along with a few notable others.
In 36 they didn't form, 60 guys agreed to walk out of a rodeo in Boston MA
Correct, with main gripe being that they wanted every dollar of entry fees added to the prize money. Strike worked. At least until modern day guys started letting amateur associations assess "office charges" "stock contractor fees" "secretary fees" on and on ad infinitum. Hard won gains will be lost and forgotten about because of guys who "just wanna ride" but again that's another story.


Simonds is still in business as far as I know.http://www.simondsinternational.com/
Tell that to the good folks in Ohio who were thrown out of work and lost their livelihoods in favor of 3rd world scabs.
Because Capewell wasn't publicly held?
I always believed it was. Are you sure about that? If that's true I'll stand corrected on it.


Like Race Platers in California? And yes I will always bring that up.
You bring nothing up. You want to say something about California platers say it already before you go away for 6 more months. Come on Tom bring it on, truth of what you allude to could prove embarrassing to all you guys.

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
George,

As distressing as you may find it. The founder and long time President of the AFA is no longer qualified to be a candidate for President.:eek: He is not a CJF.:(
I'm aware of that Ron, nonetheless I like the guy. He did the impossible. He organized guys who didn't want to be organized and he built a national association of such guys. It was really nothing short of miraculous. For that he'll always have my admiration and respect. The way he is treated by that same organization is a disgrace.
George
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 04 Jul 2009 14:07 #35

George Geist wrote:
A few of the individuals you mentioned aren't even members as far as I know so not really sure how much they care about the doings of the AFA.
Nice attempt at dodging the point, but it's still a dodge.

George Geist wrote:
...To be as crystal clear as possible lets try it this way:
To my way of thinking I believe the guys out there getting the job done-the working horseshoer, ought to rightfully be the foremost priority of any organization they choose to hold a membership in.
We actually agree upon something!

George Geist wrote:
Do you think those who make their living off of the trade should be higher on the list of priorities than those who make their living in the trade?
No. I do not believe that. Grice's Laws of Implicature would indicate that you believe those making their living off of the trade are higher on the AFA priority list than those who are making their living in the trade. As with most of your implications and accusations, this begs for clarification and defense.

George Geist wrote:
That I didn't know. If that's the case what led to that?
poor record keeping

George Geist wrote:
I'd go nuts? Why? I thought it a good idea back then I still do now.
So... you're saying that if the AFA made a public announcement recommending that their members buy a particular stock, that you wouldn't cry foul? I certainly would. Investment counseling isn't part of the mission statement and the five tenets that I bought into.

George Geist wrote:
...(reference to Walt Taylor)The way he is treated by that same organization is a disgrace.
As with your previous statement about the "trashy" way the association went about gaining 501(c)(3) status and other such comments, you've thrown out an accusation with no defense; this, like most of your finger pointing and whining, begs for clarification.

Walt is an honorary, lifetime member. He's held numerous offices, chaired and sat on numerous committees, received numerous awards (even has an award named after him), and remains active in the association. He's got AFA #1 on his membership card and in his actions. But I digress... How is it that he is treated so disgracefully??
~~Danvers

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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 04 Jul 2009 16:50 #36

  • George Geist
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danverschild wrote:

We actually agree upon something!
Actually we agree about a lot of things.
No. I do not believe that. Grice's Laws of Implicature would indicate that you believe those making their living off of the trade are higher on the AFA priority list than those who are making their living in the trade. As with most of your implications and accusations, this begs for clarification and defense.
I though I was pretty clear with specific examples in previous posts.
So... you're saying that if the AFA made a public announcement recommending that their members buy a particular stock, that you wouldn't cry foul? I certainly would. Investment counseling isn't part of the mission statement and the five tenets that I bought into.
No, I'd have no problem with it. Especially if it was for the reasons we discussed. Not sure when those five tenets came about but mission statements seem to keep changing. Was all that stuff in place back in 1980-something?


As for the other stuff you have a PM
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 04 Jul 2009 17:37 #37

George Geist wrote:
...I though I was pretty clear with specific examples in previous posts.

Other than damning Steve Kraus for working for Mustad, I don't recall any specific examples to support your accusations and claims which imply that the AFA is being controlled by some non-farrier, Evil Empire entity or entities.

George Geist wrote:
... No, I'd have no problem with it. Especially if it was for the reasons we discussed.
I think that could be where the divergence is... It would seem that you want to condemn the AFA for not being a political action group, for not being a lobbying entity, and so forth. In effect, you seem to want to condemn the AFA for its unwillingness to step outside its charter and its stated mission.

George Geist wrote:
...Not sure when those five tenets came about but mission statements seem to keep changing. Was all that stuff in place back in 1980-something?
The five tenets came about in the first five years. The list of five was presented by Walt Taylor and approved by the BoD; the tenets have not changed. The mission statement has changed very little, but it has changed. It was changed in the 90's as part of the attempt to regain 501(c)(3) status; basically, the references to advocacy were removed upon recommendation of legal counsel.

George Geist wrote:
...As for the other stuff you have a PM
...to which I responded in a rather vitriolic manner. I apologize.
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 04 Jul 2009 18:39 #38

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danverschild wrote:
Other than damning Steve Kraus for working for Mustad, I don't recall any specific examples to support your accusations and claims which imply that the AFA is being controlled by some non-farrier, Evil Empire entity or entities.
Not controlled, but shared by.
I think that could be where the divergence is... It would seem that you want to condemn the AFA for not being a political action group, for not being a lobbying entity, and so forth. In effect, you seem to want to condemn the AFA for its unwillingness to step outside its charter and its stated mission.
Not to condemn. Although you're right in that IMO I'd like to see them lean a little more in the direction of working horseshoers my opinion is pretty irrelevent. I was pointing out fact that it's awful hard to do so when others are at the table. Ultimately somebody involved is liable to be disappointed. Trying to be all things to all people is extremely difficult to do.
The five tenets came about in the first five years. The list of five was presented by Walt Taylor and approved by the BoD; the tenets have not changed. The mission statement has changed very little, but it has changed. It was changed in the 90's as part of the attempt to regain 501(c)(3) status; basically, the references to advocacy were removed upon recommendation of legal counsel.
Ok, fair enough.
...to which I responded in a rather vitriolic manner. I apologize.
No apology necessary I admire your passion.;) Wish a few more in this industry had it.:(
Have a good 4th
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 05 Jul 2009 01:12 #39

George Geist wrote:
Not controlled, but shared by.

This is what I referred to earlier as a "dodge." I said, "I don't recall any specific examples to support your accusations and claims that the AFA is being controlled by some non-farrier, Evil Empire entity or entities."

Rather than providing those examples, you come back and say it's not being controlled but shared. Refining and whitewashing the language of your accusations is not equivalent to supporting your accusations.

George Geist wrote:
... I was pointing out fact that it's awful hard to do so when others are at the table.
So who are these "others" and how are they at the "table."?
~~Danvers

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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 05 Jul 2009 16:33 #40

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danverschild wrote:
So who are these "others" and how are they at the "table."?
We are talking politics here. In local politics we have elected officials. Same at the state and national levels. These people are elected by their constituents for terms of office. While serving these terms they formulate policy, make laws, exchange ideas and serve constituents in various ways usually through what we know as the 2 party system.

Sounds simple enough on the surface right? Well there's a bit more to it than that. There are more players in the game. Special interest groups employ the use of lobbyists to further their interests. There are also bureaucrats. There are also influential individuals. All of these people have a place in the system. I dare say not much happens in the State of Delaware without the approval of the duPont family, nor does much happen in Michigan without the automobile manufacturers having a say in it, nor does much happen in Houston without Exxon/Mobil adding a voice. You get the general idea. This is in most aspects of policy including education. Nobody elects these people yet they have influence nonetheless.

AFA is thought of by many rightly or wrongly as a leader in this industry. Perhaps it's not in their mission statement or constitution to be that but being the biggest such group their thought of that way by default. Thus, as is often the case perception is reality.

In addition to working horseshoers and others who buy membership cards, they have horseshoeing school owners on their BOD. They also have suppliers, manufacturers, and as we've already shown Mustad's man.

Far as I can tell you don't disagree with the reality of any of this. The thing we appear to disagree about is whether or not this is a good thing.

You've seen me pick on horseshoeing schools before. I think it's often well deserved. If we both live to be 100 years old we will never learn all there is to know about this trade. For this reason I say that no fresh 2 week wonder diploma mill graduate vomited forth onto the country every friday is anywhere near qualified to be turned loose on the public. It is in nobody's best interest. Are there good schools out there who do more than just prostitute the trade? Of course there are! Problem I see is that none of the good ones will ever denounce this kind of thing. For the most part they rally around each other and circle the wagons. To be fair I'll say that I think BWFA is much more in bed with schools than AFA is as evidenced by Kelly Case and some stuff said on the Ralph thread. Still though they have a lot of say in the AFA as well. Can it be helpful to an organization registered as educational to have educators involved in it? Probably.

Why do these fly-by-night schools do this? Well first of all because they can but I'd venture to say that these people are doing what is in the best interests of their respective businesses. What is in the best interest of them is not necessarily in the best interest of working horseshoers or the equine industry as a whole.

When Mustad monopolized nail production, or lied to the world about their piece count packaging, or destroys a company through corporate avarice, it is probably in the best interests of their business. Is it in the best interests of working horseshoers or the equine industry?

To be fair to manufacturers I'll say as I did to Phil that when they bankroll clinics it's more to it than just the tax write off. They truly and honestly want every one of us to be the best we can be. They realize that if our businesses are successful so will theirs be. Again they do it because it's good business. So I wouldn't refer to them as an "evil entity" as you've dubbed them.

In our industry these are the players. How does an organization be all things to all people? I think you'll agree that it can't. The interests of some are not always in the best interests of others. I think you're asking me to give you a simple answer to a complex truth also.

Clear enough?
George
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 05 Jul 2009 21:16 #41

George Geist wrote:
We are talking politics here....

Sounds simple enough on the surface right? Well there's a bit more to it than that. There are more players in the game. Special interest groups... lobbyists... bureaucrats... influential individuals. All of these people have a place in the system.... This is in most aspects of policy including education. Nobody elects these people yet they have influence nonetheless.

AFA is thought of by many rightly or wrongly as a leader in this industry.....

In addition to working horseshoers and others who buy membership cards, they have horseshoeing school owners on their BOD. They also have suppliers, manufacturers, and as we've already shown Mustad's man.

Far as I can tell you don't disagree with the reality of any of this. The thing we appear to disagree about is whether or not this is a good thing.
Nope. I don't disagree, although I will again call you out on your implicature... Saying that "in addition to working horseshoers..." they have school owners, etc. on the BoD implies that those people are not and possibly never have been horseshoers. Likewise, your reference to Mr. Kraus as "Mustad's man" appears to be intended, again, to suggest that he (and others on the AFA BoD) will place others' interests above the AFA's interests and that he and others on the AFA BoD are not working horseshoers but, instead, fall into the groups that you refer to as lobbyists and bureaucrats.

To the specifics.... Rather than dancing around with this and playing with the implications, let's have a look at who and what you're questioning...

There is a horseshoeing school owner on the AFA Board of Directors. Dusty Franklin, a Board Representative for Region 2 owns a school. He was duly elected by the members of that region, who were probably all aware that he owned a school. Likewise, they were probably aware that he is an AFA loyalist, hard-core in his commitment to farriery. They likely also knew that he was an AFA Examiner, that he was a second-generation horseshoer, that he was a competitor (he wasn't yet on the AFT when he was elected), an outstanding clinician, etc., etc.

Others on the AFA BoD have some involvement with schools as well. Jason Harmeson, from Region 1, has assisted at Sierra, helping his friend (Ken Lyon) when he first took over the school. Bruce Daniels, who originally served as a Region 5 Director, also owned and operated a school prior to his retirement. Neither Bruce nor Jason made any attempts to hide their involvement with schools from their voting constituents. And, like Dusty, I would not class them as other than working horseshoers due to their involvement in schools. Likewise, they have proven repeatedly that they have a major commitment to helping the working farrier improve and advance through the AFA and otherwise.

You also indicate that there are "suppliers" and "manufacturers" on the BoD, again implying that they are not working horseshoers and/or that they don't have the working horseshoers' best interests in mind.

To the best of my knowledge, the only manufacturer on the AFA BoD is Roy Bloom, from Region 3. Again, Roy doesn't keep his tool making a secret; in fact, from day 1, Roy has shared his toolmaking knowledge and skill with AFA and non-AFA farriers alike. Like others on the AFA BoD, Roy has a long history of sacrificing his own interests for the AFA. After his own experience on the AFT, he has stayed on, giving up countless hours, days, and weeks to help those who follow in his footsteps. He's given clinics, served on committees, served on the old BoD, and worked his butt off for the AFA. All while being a working horseshoer.

If you want to stretch this one a bit, you can also throw in Dennis Manning (Region 2) as a manufacturer. Although he makes and sells his tools on a small scale, he does in fact make them and sell them (at a dear price, I might add!); the finest hammer I own is one of his. As with the others, I don't think his secondary interest in manufacturing keeps him from being considered a working horseshoer, and it certainly hasn't diminished his contributions and commitments to the AFA and the farrier community.

As long as we're swinging a big loop, you also have to throw in Dan Bradley (Region 4) and Dave Farley (Region 3), both of whom (like Steve Kraus) work as representatives for suppliers/manufacturers. To suggest that any of these three are not and have not been working horseshoers would shock the polo community (Kraus), more than a few Tevis Cup riders (Bradley), and a slew of upper level, international hunter, jumper, and dressage competitors (Farley). I doubt that such a suggestion would hold a lot of credence with the AFA and non-AFA farriers who have benefited from their hard work as AFA volunteers, though, and I'm sure it wouldn't carry much weight with those of us who have gained knowledge from their great clinics, workshops, and lectures.

So... Yes. There are members on the AFA Board of Directors who do something other than shoe horses all day every day. As I tried to articulate in a previous post (or two), it's unusual to find anyone in this community who doesn't diversify as they gain years, and our diversification tends to be within our knowledge and skill base and within our existing communities.

What you appear to be b*tching about is a lack of purity. You seem to want us all to be "pure," unsullied, and untainted by anything other than keeping our heads below our butts and running our sole proprietorships. I think it's similar in some respects to the original idea behind the Guild, where I had to show that my primary income was a result of my being a full-time horseshoer before I was allowed to take the test and become a member. I suspect it also shows that you have little faith in the democratic process and the voters' ability to select their representation.

George Geist wrote:
(long spew on schools deleted)... To be fair I'll say that I think BWFA is much more in bed with schools than AFA is as evidenced by Kelly Case and some stuff said on the Ralph thread. Still though they have a lot of say in the AFA as well. Can it be helpful to an organization registered as educational to have educators involved in it? Probably.
Again, let's see some specifics rather than these vague, accusatory generalizations. What is the "say" the schools have in the AFA?? How would you choose to exclude educators? How do you choose to draw the lines between and among educators, teachers, instructors, clinicians, and "school people"??


George Geist wrote:
When Mustad monopolized nail production, or lied to the world about their piece count packaging, or destroys a company through corporate avarice, it is probably in the best interests of their business. Is it in the best interests of working horseshoers or the equine industry?

To be fair to manufacturers I'll say as I did to Phil that when they bankroll clinics it's more to it than just the tax write off. They truly and honestly want every one of us to be the best we can be. They realize that if our businesses are successful so will theirs be. Again they do it because it's good business. So I wouldn't refer to them as an "evil entity" as you've dubbed them.
First of all, the "evil entity" reference was a facetious comment on my part, attempting to categorize your diatribes. It was not my chosen description; instead it was an attempt to paraphrase you.

Second of all, I think your comments on the manufacturers and the schools make it clear that your beef centers around not what the AFA is, but what you want it to be that it's not.
And my response to that is found in your next words...

George Geist wrote:
In our industry these are the players. How does an organization be all things to all people? I think you'll agree that it can't. The interests of some are not always in the best interests of others. I think you're asking me to give you a simple answer to a complex truth also.

In effect, the AFA is not attempting to be all things to all people. If it were, it would be enacting exclusionary practices to make you happy and acting as a political action group--also to make you happy, and we wouldn't be engaging in this dialogue because you'd finally be happy.
~~Danvers

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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 05 Jul 2009 23:07 #42

  • George Geist
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danverschild wrote:
What you appear to be b*tching about is a lack of purity. You seem to want us all to be "pure," unsullied, and untainted by anything other than keeping our heads below our butts and running our sole proprietorships. I think it's similar in some respects to the original idea behind the Guild, where I had to show that my primary income was a result of my being a full-time horseshoer before I was allowed to take the test and become a member.
Not b*tching, just stating a fact. As per my 1st post to Brian in this thread. Brought it up because I think there are a lot of guys out there who think it's different than it is. Again not saying is good or bad just what is. As to your mention of the Guild, yeah personally I do like the idea. It has it's imperfections but is on the right track.
I suspect it also shows that you have little faith in the democratic process and the voters' ability to select their representation.
Democracy has proven itself not to be a good system. Unfortunately all other systems have proven themselves to be worse. (BFranklin?)
Second of all, I think your comments on the manufacturers and the schools make it clear that your beef centers around not what the AFA is, but what you want it to be that it's not.
What I would prefer is irrelevant. Was me that pointed out what it is and isn't.
In effect, the AFA is not attempting to be all things to all people. If it were, it would be enacting exclusionary practices to make you happy and acting as a political action group--also to make you happy, and we wouldn't be engaging in this dialogue because you'd finally be happy.
Maybe, maybe not. Is impossible to know that one:)
George
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 07 Jul 2009 03:31 #43

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George Geist;164674 wrote:
It's all about conflicts. When Mustad destroyed Simonds rasp company and threw hundreds of Americans out of work I and a few others found that reprehensible. Steve Kraus came on this website defending it and literally falling on his sword over anything Mustad did. I know he was looking to hold some kind of office did he get elected? If so who's interests do you think a man like that will look to?

Back in the 1980's when Mustad acquired Capewell there was plenty of time and warning, why didn't AFA encourage every horseshoer in the country through the AFJ to buy as many shares of Capewell as they could afford? I know it's distant history but if that had happened it would have raised the price enough to sandbag their takeover attempt and maybe even we the horseshoers could have had our own nail company. Wouldn't thatta been cool?:cool: Instead they chose to sit on their hands and be quiet for fear of annoying Mustad. These are 2 examples of placing corporate interests above those of working horseshoers not to mention Americans.

Can you think of maybe a few elected people over the years that have used their offices to benefit themselves in some way or another? No need to answer is a rhetorical question. The thing I'm pointing out is that when an organization takes money from different entities there is always strings attached. If me or Phil or Gary Miller quit that group would anybody really care? If they lose somebody with strong corporate ties enough to annoy Farnam maybe? Thats a bigger problem isn't it?

People the Union does business with if we find them to be not friendly to us or working against our best interests they'll quickly join the ranks of those we no longer do business with. I see no hypocrisy here although you do. The people you posted didn't pay anything to have their info on our website. It was free for them as our friends. People in the Union who draw pay work for the Union. Nobody else. People on AFA's BOD can and often do have other interests as Mr Kraus is a glaring example of.


Well I see George is after me again, and as usual he has his "facts" all wrong.
Thank you Danvers for standing up for me, but let me tell my own story now, because I was involved on the scene with all that concerns Mustad. George, you will have to call me a liar, preferably to my face, if you disagree.

First of all, I have never "fallen on my sword" here but tried to explain what actually occurred. If I have defended anything, it is because what was posted here was not factually correct by others. My running for Region # 5 AFA rep. has nothing to do with my association with Mustad. In fact, I have put my responsibilities to the AFA over Mustad's needs several times when there has been a conflict with scheduling. There has been no issues where there could be a conflict of interest and if there was I would step aside. You have never even met me, yet you question my integrity.

I have worked for Mustad since 1976 as their original farrier consultant. I am the one came up with their clinicin program for the benefit of farriers. I have guided them through all the changes and have always taken the working farriers side on issues that would effect farriers. They are corporate and think that way, so I am there to represent farriers. George, I really take offense that you believe I would shirk my AFA duties to please Mustad.

As far as Mustad's aquisition of Capewell, George you are ignorant of how it went down. Were you there? I was. First, there were no "shares" to be purchased. Capewell was destroyed by Stanscrew/Stanadyne and would have completely disappeared if Mustad had not aquired it. Do you honestly believe horseshoers would have been able to run Capewell after it had been completely mismanaged into nothing? If you had any idea of what Mustad had to put into Capewell to resurrect it, you would not even think that.
Cooper hurt Capewell alot more then Mustad did by selling a Capewell style, rolled nail of high quality for 40% below their cost, which bankrupted them.

As far as the Simonds aquisition, Simonds Horse product division was unprofitable and for sale. It was going to be shut down if not sold. So George, who was taking jobs away from American workers? By the way, we aren't talking about "hundreds" of workers there, but a handful. Unfortunately, we are in a global economy and there will be products produced out of country to keep a competitive price, sorry. Would you pay $30 for an American made Simonds rasp?

I shoe horses everyday, all day, like you George. That is the way I have tested products for Mustad. I can also say that this company has always dedicated it self to producing quality products, standing behind them, helping farriers, and supporting the industry to the tune on hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years. Farriers are better off because of their existance. Are they perfect? Not really. Have mistakes been made? Certainly. But the overall their mission has been positive.

George, it is great to hear your rants, just get your facts correct.

Steve Kraus
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 07 Jul 2009 07:10 #44

  • T.N. Trosin
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Can we be done now?
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 13 Jul 2009 11:22 #45

  • George Geist
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anvilsteve wrote:
Well I see George is after me again,
Not hardly, you are not the issue.
In fact, I have put my responsibilities to the AFA over Mustad's needs several times when there has been a conflict with scheduling. There has been no issues where there could be a conflict of interest and if there was I would step aside.
This is good to hear
You have never even met me, yet you question my integrity.
Have said nothing about integrity. Have merely pointed out the varied interests served by the AFA.
Capewell was destroyed by Stanscrew/Stanadyne and would have completely disappeared if Mustad had not aquired it.
Too many variables to know for sure, could have been bought by somebody else. We'll never know.
Do you honestly believe horseshoers would have been able to run Capewell after it had been completely mismanaged into nothing?
No, I've no doubt horseshoers can mismanage something into nothing with the best of them:) Normally shareholders don't have much of a management role. This is what management is hired for.
As far as the Simonds aquisition, Simonds Horse product division was unprofitable and for sale. It was going to be shut down if not sold. So George, who was taking jobs away from American workers? By the way, we aren't talking about "hundreds" of workers there, but a handful.
A handful? The ripple effect of that can be tremendous. To me one American being thrown out of work by a multi-national is too many.
Unfortunately, we are in a global economy and there will be products produced out of country to keep a competitive price, sorry. Would you pay $30 for an American made Simonds rasp?
That depends, I've paid that much for a Vallorbe already so probably yes if the quality was there. I'll not pay $1 for a Columbian one regardless of quality. The issue of globalism is a clear and present threat to our way of life. Coming from a rust belt state I've seen the effects of it first hand. Not only will the dismantling of our industrial base and machine tooling abilities threaten national security but also eventually national sovereignty. Is an excellent topic for another thread.


Point of this discussion was that these organizations, most notably AFA, have many others involved in them besides working horseshoers.

Danvers demanded specifics. example after example after example. They could go on and on forever. Nobody here has disagreed with me about any of this yet you guys are all very angry about my pointing this out.

Question is why? Just what has you all so upset? Is this supposed to be a big secret or something?
George
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