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TOPIC: Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread

Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 01 Jul 2009 20:36 #1

  • George Geist
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Brian Purrington wrote:
Nick,

When I was running for Reg 5 rep, part of my platform was that the AFA was/is about FARRIERS and not so much the organization.

I stand by that today as well.
Sorry Brian, gotta disagree with that. There are entirely too many other people at the table. It is impossible for them or any other such group to adequately represent working horseshoers when they have the interests of manufacturers, suppliers, schools, vets, and who knows who else to be beholden to. The interests of those folks is not necessarily what is in the working shoers best interest and when push comes to shove shoers will be lowest on the totem pole every time.
I'm not beatin the AFA's drum here but want to point out that sometimes our perception of something can be skewed by others perceptions without basis.
On that we can agree as my previous post points out.
George
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 01 Jul 2009 21:02 #2

  • westtxshoer
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There are entirely too many other people at the table.
Maybe that is part of the problem?
It is impossible for them or any other such group to adequately represent working horseshoers when they have the interests of manufacturers, suppliers, schools, vets, and who knows who else to be beholden to.
A farriers association should not be behoden to anyone, but Farriers. In other trades, the trade association does not represent anyone, but the tradesman. It should be the desire of the manufacturer and supplier to represent THEMSELVES to the organization. RSCS, for example (an association for HVAC/R trades) is not beholden to anyone but the tradesman. Manufacturers and suppliers work to present themselves to the associates.
The interests of those folks is not necessarily what is in the working shoers best interest and when push comes to shove shoers will be lowest on the totem pole every time.
That probably says, in a nutshell, why farriers associations do not have more members.
RJ Little
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 01 Jul 2009 21:32 #3

George Geist;164463]Sorry Brian, gotta disagree with that.
No need to apologize, everyone is entiltled to thier own opinion.
There are entirely too many other people at the table.
Maybe so maybe no.... Bottom line is my specific point was that there is a great deal of positive within the membership. Too much to overlook solely on the opinion of organizational issues/drivers.
It is impossible for them or any other such group to adequately represent working horseshoers when they have the interests of manufacturers, suppliers, schools, vets, and who knows who else to be beholden to.
George, get over yourself. Let's not make this something it's not. We shoe horses for a living. How much "representation" do you need. Go out, do good work, set your prices to the market and pay attention to your business. It's work, but anyone with skill and ambition can do it. I personally have connections with every entity you mentioned and then some. It's called networking. They use me to benifit them and I use them to benifit me.
The interests of those folks is not necessarily what is in the working shoers best interest
I like to think I look after myself and help those coming up to do the same by passing on the basic do's and dont's of business and profession as others have done for me. That has been the farrier way for a long time as far as I can tell. I would venture to say that "those folks" feel the same way I do.
and when push comes to shove shoers will be lowest on the totem pole every time.
I dont know what you mean by this. What exactly do you think the AFA admin gets out of the alleged connections it has with your afore mentioned entities....?
What benifit do you think the AFA and/or its admin reaps. Please expound.

The AFA is not a regulatory entity it's an organization of Farriers.

If you want regulation, control and someone to look out for your "best interest" you have two choices.

Myself, I choose to "regulate" myself.

What have you chosen?:rolleyes:
Brian R. Purrington
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 01 Jul 2009 22:11 #4

I would like to point out that comparing this industry to any other is like comparing apples to watermelons.

There are allegedly around 35,000.00 farriers in the US, connect that to the amount of suppliers there are.....

Let's now use the HVAC trades as an example for comparison.

How many trade organizations do you think there are nationally? Locally? statewide? Region based?

Anyone have a clue how many HVAC contractors there are in the US?
How about specific name brand suppliers....
Non brand specific suppliers?
Home improvement stores?
Hardware stores?
Salvage stores?

Now lets throw in the fact that some states are regulated and some are not for trade licenses.

Now consider that some suppliers sell to the public and some don't regardless of state regulations.

Some states wont allow sales of HVAC supplies to anyone other than licensed contractrors...

And now for the real twist.

Please someone name ANY other trade or profession that the tradesman actually fabricates what he needs to do his job and the product used most in his job.

I'd love to see an HVAC guy fabricate and install a heat pump with only the tools and supplies on his rig.

Let's all keep in mind that this trade is still fairly pure and archaic as "advanced" as we would like to fancy ourselves it's still pretty darn close to how it started out.
Brian R. Purrington
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 01 Jul 2009 23:29 #5

  • westtxshoer
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Brian,
I am in the HVAC trade and I can't even answer most of these questions. You are right in that farriery cannot be exactly compared to many other trades. I certainly cannot build a heat pump on site. There are 85 listed contractors in Abilene, Texas alone and it is only 117,000 people.

I am escaping from the HVAC trade as much as I can largely because I enjoy shoeing horses more, but also because I don't like to be regulated, licensed, permitted, and all other such government oversights.

HVAC trade associations also face the same challenges as any other with the exception that manufacturers, suppliers, and customers are largely NOT involved except to provide support for training on their products.

I do not agree with many that the AFA or BWFA are unnecessary organizations. I have thought so in the past, but have since changed my reckoning. A trade association will give you only what you put in. If you don't attend a meeting/training/clinic/etc., you will not receive any of the benefits. Any organization comprised of people is going to be flawed. Everyone cannot be pleased all the time. Ask the Boy Scouts. You simply have to take what you can get and leave the rest.
RJ Little
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817-341-9857

"I ain't askin' nobody for nuthin', if I can't get it on my own." - Charlie Daniels
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 01 Jul 2009 23:34 #6

westtxshoer wrote:
Brian,
............You smply have to take what you can get and leave the rest.

This is true in most aspects of life.

PS. Westtex - My post was not directed at you, I was posting in anticipation of the usual banter that follows in threads like this. I just used the HVAC trade because it was fresh in my mind aftyer reading your post.

This forum has been down this road COUNTLESS times.
Brian R. Purrington
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 02 Jul 2009 00:59 #7

  • George Geist
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Brian Purrington wrote:
Maybe so maybe no.... Bottom line is my specific point was that there is a great deal of positive within the membership. Too much to overlook solely on the opinion of organizational issues/drivers.
Yes there is. But I think your missing the point. Read on.
I dont know what you mean by this. What exactly do you think the AFA admin gets out of the alleged connections it has with your afore mentioned entities....?
What benifit do you think the AFA and/or its admin reaps. Please expound.
A seven letter word starting with m and ending in y. Although working shoers are the majority of the membership Mustad will always have a much bigger say. If they choose to monopolize the nail business and buy up every shoe and tool maker they can it might not necessarily be the best for working horseshoers although it is in the best interests of their business. This obvious conflict will never be mentioned by the AFA or any other association for fear of losing money for their contest, advertizing for their magazine, etc etc. Do you disagree with this?
The AFA is not a regulatory entity it's an organization of Farriers.
Nobody said it was a regulatory entity, I don't know what got you on that but nor is it a farriers association per se but more accurately a farriery organization as Mr Stovall has so wisely pointed out before.

As I've pointed out before many young up and coming horseshoers sadly don't know the nuts and bolts of their own business. In this instance many guys don't know the players in their own industry.
George
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 02 Jul 2009 01:25 #8

  • Travis Reed
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George Geist
many guys don't know the players in their own industry


would that the person who pays you after your done??
Travis Reed.....


www.sporthorsefarrier.com to direct link..
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 02 Jul 2009 03:57 #9

  • westtxshoer
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Brian Purrington wrote:
PS. Westtex - My post was not directed at you,
Noted. Not a problem either way. This forum will likely keep arguing this subject for many years to come......
RJ Little
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 02 Jul 2009 07:47 #10

George Geist wrote:
...There are entirely too many other people at the table. It is impossible for them or any other such group to adequately represent working horseshoers when they have the interests of manufacturers, suppliers, schools, vets, and who knows who else to be beholden to. The interests of those folks is not necessarily what is in the working shoers best interest and when push comes to shove shoers will be lowest on the totem pole every time.

From the home page of your website...
Welcome to the Journeymen Horseshoers Union

In the 21st century, the JHU has not only opened their ranks to non-racetrack horseshoers once again, but also to members of other horse related trades as well now being referred to as JHU&AET for recognition of the Allied Equine Trades division.

In 2004 the JHU became affiliated with several other unions in a mutually beneficial merger.
~~Danvers

Danvers Child, CJF

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"Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than...
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 02 Jul 2009 10:58 #11

  • George Geist
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Brian Purrington wrote:
George, get over yourself. Let's not make this something it's not. We shoe horses for a living. How much "representation" do you need. Go out, do good work, set your prices to the market and pay attention to your business. It's work, but anyone with skill and ambition can do it. I personally have connections with every entity you mentioned and then some. It's called networking. They use me to benifit them and I use them to benifit me.
Ok fine, question I have though is if you think there is little or no need for representation then why did you run for office?
I like to think I look after myself and help those coming up to do the same by passing on the basic do's and dont's of business and profession as others have done for me. That has been the farrier way for a long time as far as I can tell. I would venture to say that "those folks" feel the same way I do.
Probably so. Yet you do see a need for organizations as evidenced by your holding memberships in them no?


danverschild wrote:
From the home page of your website...
Welcome to the Journeymen Horseshoers Union
As author of that I'm quite familiar with it. Not quite sure how your connecting that with what we're talking about though:confused:
George
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 02 Jul 2009 20:43 #12

George Geist;164555]Ok fine, question I have though is if you think there is little or no need for representation then why did you run for office?
As a region rep the job description is "to be a medium of communication between the national admin and the regional organizations. ie - the MFA, DFA, PPFA, VHA and so on. I personally feel like there is more potential in the regional or local organizations for betterment of the profession. I was taking advantage of an opportunity afforded me to get involved instead of whining about how bad things are.....
Probably so. Yet you do see a need for organizations as evidenced by your holding memberships in them no?
I don't feel like organizations qualify as a "need". I feel like I've proven that with the yearly workshop that I host. No organizational help there short of some donations from some of my vendors to auction off or give away. I think organizations are a good way to network, make friends and build business relationships that will serve to benifit both myself and those who are involved in those relationships either personal or business.

As farriers all we have is each other... we might as well get along as best we can.

Regards
Brian R. Purrington
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 03 Jul 2009 04:01 #13

  • Mark_Gough
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Brian Purrington wrote:

As farriers all we have is each other... we might as well get along as best we can.


Amen Brian!


Cheers,
Mark
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 03 Jul 2009 04:15 #14

  • T.N. Trosin
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George Geist wrote:
As author of that I'm quite familiar with it. Not quite sure how your connecting that with what we're talking about though:confused:
George

Perhaps he was eluding to your choice of the word "beholding", and how odd it was where as the JHU has had to be beholding to the AFL-CIO and now the IUJAT. Just a guess.
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RE:Organizations-spinoff from WCB thread 03 Jul 2009 12:01 #15

  • George Geist
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T.N. Trosin wrote:
Perhaps he was eluding to your choice of the word "beholding", and how odd it was where as the JHU has had to be beholding to the AFL-CIO and now the IUJAT. Just a guess.
Is a whole different subject entirely. JHU built the AFL. (Google John Fitzpatrick) IUJAT is the JHU's charter which several other Unions joined. 'Nuther words they joined us. You guys know full and well that comparing a Union to an association is an apples to oranges comparison.

There is interestingly enough I think a relevent comparison though. The PRCA.
Those guys had their beginnings as a Union back in '36 when they were known as the Turtles. Over time they let stock contractors, producers, contract acts, so on and so forth join as members. When this happened they ceased being a Union but instead became an association. The only trappings of a Union they still have is their permit (apprenticeship) system in which a certain amount of money must be made before full membership or cardholder status is granted.

As an association they are not by for and about cowboys. Dodge Trucks and Wrangler jeans have much more say than any cowboy does.

As I see it in AFA day to day workings Mustad and StCroix will get much more attention than any working horseshoer out there. This is what is. Not sure what we're arguing about here but when I see somebody saying that or any other such organization is by and for and all about the working horseshoer? Well.....
Makes for good sound bites and political campaign talk but too many guys might actually believe that stuff.
George
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