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TOPIC: Professions & Licensing

RE:Professions & Licensing 03 Apr 2009 19:43 #61

  • George Geist
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Of course some disagree...they seem to have trouble telling the difference between a horse and a person but they disagree.
And you don't agree that a horse is a defenseless animal 100% dependent on humans for it's care and well being?
BTW, for your reading pleasure, an example of the lengths your beloved left will go to bolster their efforts to get more regulation into our lives. In this case, to take away our 2nd amendment rights. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2009/04/02/myth-percent-guns-mexico-fraction-number-claimed/
I don't remember saying I was any big fan of the political left. Careful what you a s s ume:p On that issue there are entirely too many anti-gunners on both sides of the aisle.
As for me I'm an NRA Endowment member. How bout you? You have an NRA card?
George
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 03 Apr 2009 23:07 #62

  • Jaye Perry
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Tom Stovall, CJF;~~~~vthorseshoe

.......

Is this coming full circle ? For when you go back to the beginning farriers were considered veterinarians until the two seperated.

I don't think farriers will ever attain the same status as veterinarians in the public eye, but I they'll just have to live with their pain. :)

......


depends on how much education the Farrier obtains beyond making the "perfect shoe".:rolleyes::):)
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RE:Professions & Licensing 04 Apr 2009 00:46 #63

  • westtxshoer
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I'm a newbie to this forum, but not new to licensing, certifications, and such as that. I have enough certifications for HVAC and refrigeration to fill my wallet with little plastic cards. I have a Texas contractors "A" license for HVAC/R in which I had to take a test, prove years of experience, and show proper liability insurance. I also have to take eight hours of continuing education for my license every year and eight hours of continuing ed for two seperate certifications. I must register as a contractor in every city that I work (for a fee). Anyone who works for me for more than a week is required to be registered with the state of Texas and must pass the CFC (freon) certification within three months of registration. All of these certifications, continuing education, licensing and so forth cost me money every year.

All that being said, the reason I am shoeing more than doing HVAC work is because I do not like the government breathing down my neck and watching all that I do. I believe in certification testing only for my benefit. When I pass a test, it proves to ME that I know what I am doing. It is my opinion that our government has their hands in far too many facets of our lives as it is. Farriery is one of the last holdouts and I believe it should stay that way. If a government license is required for shoers, why not trainers and breeders? Do they not affect horse health also?
RJ Little
Merkel, Texas
817-341-9857

"I ain't askin' nobody for nuthin', if I can't get it on my own." - Charlie Daniels
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RE:Professions & Licensing 04 Apr 2009 09:52 #64

  • Mike Ferrara
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George Geist wrote:
Licensing has been in place on racetracks for years and years. I've never heard any racetrack shoer complain about it.

The race track involves gambling and about everything that involves gambling is regulated.

Most of the guys I've talked to who were licensed in Illinois (with possible exception of Rick) were not happy to see it end.

The guy who got me started was licensed in Illinois and I don't think he was a fan of the licensing. The only guys I knew who were, were those that just didn't want copmetition. In those days, you could end up in a fight shoeing in someone elses "area".

You say you see no need, I'd direct your attention to the "hoof butchery in NC" thread that was locked up. I think that individual is a pretty good poster child.
George

What needs to be demonstrated is, first, that it's the role of government to prevent "hoof butchery in NC" and, 2nd, that it would prevent it. Licensing doesn't prevent lousy work. Government doesn't prevent lousy work. In fact, it's about the best example of incompetence that I can think of.

I said..."Of course some disagree...they seem to have trouble telling the difference between a horse and a person but they disagree."
And you don't agree that a horse is a defenseless animal 100% dependent on humans for it's care and well being?

Sure they're dependant on humans...just like beef, pork, and poultry.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 04 Apr 2009 15:29 #65

  • SlowShoe
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I came into this a little late, im not even goign to bother to get into the whole thread. But Mike and Gary seems to be on the correct track here. Most of the other responses (i've only read first page) seem to be those of thought processes conditioned by an over regulated society in which we live in. Where if government says so it must be right regardless of common sense or statistical facts.


Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
Talk about a quantum leap!

IMO it takes a vivid imagination or a conspiracy theorist to get from licencing a professional to the erosion of democracy and freedom!

First let me just say that democracy is not freedom, it is factually equivalent to mob rule, and turns freedom on its head.. Its very irritating to hear people use the words democracy to describe freedom. When 51% can take away the freedom of 49% then that is not freedom its quasi consentual totalitarianism.

If you think licensing is not directly related to erosion of freedom then you really must not understand the mechanism. Saying its a conspiracy is silly, It is provable fact. Revolutions have been fought over such things.

One of the most simple ways to control a population is to make things illegal and then to give consent to a few by charging them a fee or tax and giving them imaginary permission to do things which would otherwise be illegal. Because that's what licensing is. It is permission by an 'authority' to do something which would otherwise be illegal. Nothing more. Nothing less.

There are great examples of this throughout modern history, to deny this fact is to where blinder to obvious truths. :confused:

Trust me we have licencing of farriery, and riding schools in the UK and I've never seen a policeman yet and I'm still able to go and vote and express my opinion.

It's not about farriery. Its about the fact that people need to be free to make up their own minds as long as they dont effect someone else.

Though I absolutely accept that I don't have the freedom to find an untrained child abuser with a FUgly ill-treated pony to teach my grandchildren to ride or a blood-letting butcher to trim and shoe my horses.

If that's restricting my freedom and right to do just what I want, then long may it be.

Licensing is not an excuse for good judgment. Your giving up your right to choose freely in exchange for a false sense of security that has no guarantees and is based entirely upon the assumption that standards have been met and are maintained.

People should have (and do as far as I am concerned) the right to contract with whom ever they want. Certification is far more effective than the bloated and outdated bureaucratic machine of licensing.

-josh
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RE:Professions & Licensing 04 Apr 2009 15:43 #66

  • SlowShoe
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[QUOTE=George Geist;152712
By the way, did you know that fire departments were once private? [/QUOTE]

Most fire departments are volunteer organizations. Thats what Ben had in mind.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 05 Apr 2009 12:12 #67

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Slow shoe, I feel exactly the same way about the democratic process but I still can't think of a better way to make up the rules than by majority vote, unless everyone just wants me to decide.:)My theory has been that just because the majority agrees/disagrees with an issue does not make it right or wrong. At one point in this country the majority didn't think it was immoral to own slaves, didn't think it was wrong to prevent women from voting, the list is never ending. Majority approval does not equal morality. I wonder what that classifies me as politically? Sorry for the rambling.
Stay Safe
Bryant
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RE:Professions & Licensing 05 Apr 2009 12:40 #68

  • Mike Ferrara
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ocsmitty wrote:
Slow shoe, I feel exactly the same way about the democratic process but I still can't think of a better way to make up the rules than by majority vote, unless everyone just wants me to decide.:)My theory has been that just because the majority agrees/disagrees with an issue does not make it right or wrong. At one point in this country the majority didn't think it was immoral to own slaves, didn't think it was wrong to prevent women from voting, the list is never ending. Majority approval does not equal morality. I wonder what that classifies me as politically? Sorry for the rambling.
Stay Safe
Bryant

Our form of government is not meant to be "majority rule" (democracy). In a pure democracy there is no individual liberty since half plus one can dictate to all the rest.

The intention of our founders was to maximize individual liberty. Therefor, our constitution defines limits for the majority and, more importantly, for the government.

Unfortunately, many people seem willing to abandon these principles (or are they ignorant of them?) in favor of getting on the government tit...bering taken care of. You can't be free and be taken care of.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 05 Apr 2009 14:29 #69

  • SlowShoe
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Bryant,
Your thought process is indicative of many. The problem is people don't realize (like mike said) that our country was never intended to be a democracy, but no one knows of an alternative. In fact I wrote a song about this. I just recorded it, you can listen here -> Public education.

The word democracy has only been seen as favorable since the 1930's. Before then it was not used much. In fact the army training manuals prior outlined democracy as very bad form of government. Basically the opposite of freedom..The constitution never says the word Democracy. But it does say the alternative. A Republic. There are lots of similarities, but the difference is that in a Republic the people have rights that can never be taken away. You can not vote on weather someone should die, or have to forfeit property for no reason. Like Mike said in a Democratic Republic the voting process is the same but peoples rights are not to be voted on. Essentially its a form of governing that limits the scope of government and prevents individuals from harming one another.

-josh
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RE:Professions & Licensing 05 Apr 2009 15:11 #70

  • Clint Burrell
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SlowShoe wrote:
Bryant,
Your thought process is indicative of many. The problem is people don't realize (like mike said) that our country was never intended to be a democracy, but no one knows of an alternative.

The word democracy has only been seen as favorable since the 1930's. Before then it was not used much. In fact the army training manuals prior outlined democracy as very bad form of government. Basically the opposite of freedom..The constitution never says the word Democracy. But it does say the alternative. A Republic. There are lots of similarities, but the difference is that in a Republic the people have rights that can never be taken away. You can not vote on weather someone should die, or have to forfeit property for no reason. Like Mike said in a Democratic Republic the voting process is the same but peoples rights are not to be voted on. Essentially its a form of governing that limits the scope of government and prevents individuals from harming one another.

-josh

I agree. I've always had a problem w/ things such as "the greater good" like condemning property to build roads and moving people from land they own and don't want to move from.Sometimes it's inevitable(dams)but other times it's just government flexing it's muscle.Guns will be a hot topic again in lieu of recent events,but I can't help believe these things wouldn't happen as often if our hands weren't bound so tight by laws making most fearful of protecting themselves.Now they depend on the police and they can not protect everyone.However,I WILL take care of me and mine,regardless.I try to live morally correct,that's the best I can do.

Clint
Clint Burrell

"You say your from collage,
but you don't seem to bright.
You just brought a swichblade
to a pistol fight"
Move On by Chris Knight
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RE:Professions & Licensing 05 Apr 2009 15:14 #71

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I know all 3 of you are intelligent men.
So just for once instead of sayin and telling all that is wrong with this country and its process.

Sit down and clearly and precisely show us in print how you would run this country.

I for one and interested .

I don't need comparrisons or alternate posts of someone elses post and I don't need songs.

If you want to convince me and others then SHOW US what you would do were you in charge.

DETAILS !!!

myt 2 cents worth
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:Professions & Licensing 05 Apr 2009 15:21 #72

Josh, your spot on brother. I'm a republican for that reason, unfortunately republican leaders have forgotten their roots. Time to clean house and get back to basics. We will see how it works out for us with the current administration it may be the best education the people in this country ever get. I will say on a positive note. I do like the respect the current administration is showing the rest of the world. For too long this country has ruled with an iron fist, totally takeing the rest of world for granted. We also live our lives with way too much paranoia and think the only way to live is to be in power and have control. The economic problems we have today were coming. Anyone with common sense knows we could not continue to live high on the hog and create more and more debt, problem is many people only view success with the almighty dollar and greed is running ramped. So here we are in the middle of a normal cycle trying to figure out how to fix it when the only fix is time. Change is occurring no different than the changes our ancestors experienced when transitioning into the industrial age. Many lives were change, the ones who embraced it and learned how to adapt succeeded some panicked and got swallowed up with the storm. Got to adapt to change, improvise, do what you have to do to survive and do it with common sense and respect for others.
Phil Armitage, CF
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"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Professions & Licensing 05 Apr 2009 15:43 #73

  • Mike Ferrara
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Clint Burrell wrote:
I agree. I've always had a problem w/ things such as "the greater good" like condemning property to build roads and moving people from land they own and don't want to move from.Sometimes it's inevitable(dams)but other times it's just government flexing it's muscle.Guns will be a hot topic again in lieu of recent events,but I can't help believe these things wouldn't happen as often if our hands weren't bound so tight by laws making most fearful of protecting themselves.Now they depend on the police and they can not protect everyone.However,I WILL take care of me and mine,regardless.I try to live morally correct,that's the best I can do.

Clint


The police don't protect anyone. They enforce the law by trying to catch those who have broken the law. Those who were harmed by the breaking of the law have been harmed and NOT protected from harm.

There have even been law suite against the police claiming that they failed to "protect" that went nowhere...I don't have a case number for reference but I'm sure a little research could dig one up. You have to protect yourself and your own family. You are responsible for your safey.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 05 Apr 2009 15:58 #74

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vthorseshoe wrote:
I know all 3 of you are intelligent men.
So just for once instead of sayin and telling all that is wrong with this country and its process.

Sit down and clearly and precisely show us in print how you would run this country.

I for one and interested .

I don't need comparrisons or alternate posts of someone elses post and I don't need songs.

If you want to convince me and others then SHOW US what you would do were you in charge.

DETAILS !!!

myt 2 cents worth

Bruce, in a free country, there's no need for me to convince you of anything. Live the way you want to live brother. If you want me to live the way you want me to live or take the fruits of my labor (slavery), come dressed for a fight.

In the mean time, read Thomas Jefferson. I agree with him.

Lastly and most importantly to what's wrong with this country and it's processes? This is and has been the greatest country on the face of the planet. Made great by the freedom to put forth individual efforts for individual reasons (profit, not the least amoung them). I am NOT the one screaming for change. It's the change that's ruining us. The only change needed is to change it back and to remind folks of where we come from and why we came. Long live the king...as long as he lives someplace else or learns to mind his own business.

Our founders had it right.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 05 Apr 2009 16:02 #75

  • Clint Burrell
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Mr. Mike,

Your right,but that's what people think the police do and therein lies the problem.The biggest problem is most people can't or wont take care of themselves.They expect local and federal government to do that for them.

Mr. Bruce,

I wouldn't have the slightest idea where to begin to affect a change that would be noticeable in my or my son's lifetime.The best I can do is teach him to be good to others,help friends,family and strangers with no thought of anything in return but a kind word,and to defend the things he loves and believes in to the death w/ no fear for himself.
I prefer to live off the map as much as possible,i like it better that way.I accept all people as friends until proven otherwise but I don't get taken advantage of. I offer only what I'm willing to lose.

I don't know nuthi'n but what I know,

Clint
Clint Burrell

"You say your from collage,
but you don't seem to bright.
You just brought a swichblade
to a pistol fight"
Move On by Chris Knight
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