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TOPIC: Professions & Licensing

RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 12:39 #31

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
...anybody who wants to call himself a preacher can be a preacher.
Reverend Tom Stovall, CJF of the Church of Opposition to Presumptuous Assumption. :eek:

Has a nice ring to it. :D
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RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 12:49 #32

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Gary_Miller in gray, stuff deleted


On the other hand, while the clergy are considered professionals in the classic sense, the profession is akin to farriery in that there are no educational requirements, no licensure, no background check, no nothing - anybody who wants to call himself a preacher can be a preacher.

That's not completely accurate. Each church can set requirements as they see fit and they can do whatever kind of background check they want. The Biblical version is that we are all to minister and the Constitution allows us to worship as we please.

But hey, what does any of this mean when the only requirements to be president are that you're a 35 year old born citizen? The requirements for other political offices are even more lax. I doubt our current President could pass the background check required to be a clerk in an FBI office.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 13:18 #33

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Policemen, firemen, soldiers, doctors, lawyers, teachers, accountants, veterinarians - virtually EVERY individual in every profession undergoes some sort of criminal background check.
These background checks are usually done by the prospective employer and not the licensing issuing organization. They are also usually preformed only once, before you are officially hired.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
On the other hand, while the clergy are considered professionals in the classic sense, the profession is akin to farriery in that there are no educational requirements, no licensure, no background check, no nothing - anybody who wants to call himself a preacher can be a preacher.
There is nothing stopping the church in which a preacher is to be preaching from requireing a back ground check before they are hired. Its my understanding that most churches have some type of board who over sees the day to day operations of the church, to include hireing a new preachers.


Lets narrow the question down, well bring it closer to home.

Who would determine if the person was cleared to practice as a farrier?
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RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 14:02 #34

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Gary_Miller wrote:

There is nothing stopping the church in which a preacher is to be preaching from requireing a back ground check before they are hired. Its my understanding that most churches have some type of board who over sees the day to day operations of the church, to include hireing a new preachers.

Different churches are, of course different. The Cotholic church as well as some other denominations are very structured and folks at the "home office" make many of the big decisions.

What I've seen of non-denomintaional Christian churches is a doctrinal statement which states what the church believes and a constitution which states how it will oporate. Day to day decisions/oporations are made by staff and "overseen" by church elders and the voting membership is kept up to speed at member meetings. Major decisions are voted on by the membership.

The hiring of a pastor or assistant pastor for instance would be done by vote. While a pastor, for example is a key decision maker in day to day oporations he can be hired/fired at the pleasure of the elders and voting membership. the pastor isn't really the boss.

Members are also voted in. Generally anyone can attend the church but there is a process involved in becoming a member. It usually starts with an invitation, interview with pastor, elders and finally a vote by the membership. Clergy and elders are bound by the doctrinal statement but so are members. You don't want voting members that don't see eye to eye with the churches doctrin.

Of course anyone can found their own church and do it however they please and there are plenty of "preachers" who just open a church and run it.

Speaking from experience, finding out what a church is really all about, picking one and figuring out whether or not you made a wise choice can be tricky business. Thus far, I've declined "membership".
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RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 14:25 #35

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Gary_Miller in gray

These background checks are usually done by the prospective employer and not the licensing issuing organization. They are also usually preformed only once, before you are officially hired.

Anyone legally handling narcotics, working in law enforcement, the criminal justice system (excepting JPs here in Texas!), public health, teaching/administration in public schools, and virtually every other position of trust or authority in the public sector not only undergoes a criminal background check by whomever does the hiring/licensing within their particular profession, any serious brush with the law after they're hired can result in them losing their license to practice and/or job.

As an aside, every state racing commission licensee - from the track owner to the lowliest hot walker - undergoes an FBI background check.

There is nothing stopping the church in which a preacher is to be preaching from requireing a back ground check before they are hired. Its my understanding that most churches have some type of board who over sees the day to day operations of the church, to include hireing a new preachers.

LMAO! Calling oneself a preacher does not imply having a church.

Lets narrow the question down, well bring it closer to home.

Who would determine if the person was cleared to practice as a farrier?


If farrier licensing ever becomes law in the US - and it probably will when some state legislator in a cash-strapped state like California figures out that farriers are a cash cow that can be milked - most likely the program will be a clusterfork under the administration of political appointees. It doesn't have to be that way, but due to farriers' near-universal dislike for licensing, nobody wants formulate - or even think about - a workable plan for the implementation and administration of farrier licensing. Why think about anything bad when we can maintain the mythical pose of a large, flightless, bird? :)
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RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 14:47 #36

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
LMAO! Calling oneself a preacher does not imply having a church.

Of course not. If you preach, y are a preacher. In theory, we are free to preach on any topic we wish including religion.


If farrier licensing ever becomes law in the US - and it probably will when some state legislator in a cash-strapped state like California figures out that farriers are a cash cow that can be milked - most likely the program will be a clusterfork under the administration of political appointees. It doesn't have to be that way, but due to farriers' near-universal dislike for licensing, nobody wants formulate - or even think about - a workable plan for the implementation and administration of farrier licensing. Why think about anything bad when we can maintain the mythical pose of a large, flightless, bird? :)

It's kind of a double edged sword. If they institute licensing, I prefer that it fail and get un-instituted. That's sort of what happened in Illinois. I'm not likely to help design a system for them that works. I also prefer that organizations like the AFA and AAEP remain small and politically weak, which is a major reason that I won't belong to the AFA.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 23:31 #37

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It doesn't have to be that way, but due to farriers' near-universal dislike for licensing, nobody wants formulate - or even think about - a workable plan for the implementation and administration of farrier licensing. Why think about anything bad when we can maintain the mythical pose of a large, flightless, bird?
Okay, I am going to bite. Please Mr. Stovall tell me what "a workable plan for the implementation and administration of farrier licensing" would be.
Would this be implemented on a state level or county level? Which organization's testing would be used, AFA, BWFA, Guild or something else? Would we use a 4 point trim or would we use Duckett's dot. Would Butler, Ovnicek, KC LePierre or Pete Ramey be our administrator?
Secondly, please tell me how "we can maintain the mythical pose of a large, flightless, bird."
I find it quite amusing that any one believes that some government official is going to listen to an organization of maybe 3,000 exsisting members out of a field of maybe 50,000. If it were done at a state level, divide 3,000 by 50 = 60, whoa now that is some real clout!
Personally the only way I think the farrier industry would have any input is if the Guild, AFA and BWFA come to an agreement and maybe, just maybe between all 3 there would be enough voices to interest a state rep.
Come on people get your head out of the sand! The UAW contributes tens of thousands of dollars to political campaigns and look at all the sympathy they got. How much money has the BWFA, AFA, and Guild gave to political compaigns? I bet it is a long way from that.
Bottom line is if licensing happens it is going to be done on a state level and the state is going to do it the cheapest way they can and get as much money as they can out of the professional farrier. From that point on they will milk us for more money any chance they get.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 31 Mar 2009 00:43 #38

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wwhite1973 in gray

Okay, I am going to bite. Please Mr. Stovall tell me what "a workable plan for the implementation and administration of farrier licensing" would be. Would this be implemented on a state level or county level? Which organization's testing would be used, AFA, BWFA, Guild or something else? Would we use a 4 point trim or would we use Duckett's dot. Would Butler, Ovnicek, KC LePierre or Pete Ramey be our administrator?

Personally, I usta think the AFA's CF test was laughably easy, but lotsa folks have trouble with it, so maybe something simple like demonstrating the ability to shoe two feet so the victim doesn't walk off any worse than it walked up would be sufficient. You're not trying to sift folks, just get 'em licensed with a minimum of bureaucratic interference.

Secondly, please tell me how "we can maintain the mythical pose of a large, flightless, bird."

Easy! Just pretend licensing can't happen and keep your head stuck in the sand - there ain't nothing to it; we've been doing it for years.

I find it quite amusing that any one believes that some government official is going to listen to an organization of maybe 3,000 exsisting members out of a field of maybe 50,000. If it were done at a state level, divide 3,000 by 50 = 60, whoa now that is some real clout!

When it happens, it'll happen at the state level. Here in Texas, we have a very good relationship with the vet school at Texas A&M. If I were in charge of formulating a prophylactic plan, I'd start by enlisting the aid of the faculty at Texas A&M, then go from there. A plan offered by a few hundred farriers won't raise an eyebrow in Austin; a plan with the impremateur of the A&M vet school would likely be put into place before Bob gets the news.

Personally the only way I think the farrier industry would have any input is if the Guild, AFA and BWFA come to an agreement and maybe, just maybe between all 3 there would be enough voices to interest a state rep.


The TPFA has a helluva lot more clout with the faculty at Texas A&M than does any national organization.

Come on people get your head out of the sand! The UAW contributes tens of thousands of dollars to political campaigns and look at all the sympathy they got. How much money has the BWFA, AFA, and Guild gave to political compaigns? I bet it is a long way from that.

The AFA and TPFA are IRS 501(c)(3) non profit organizations; as such, they are not allowed to lobby or contribute to politcial campaigns.

Bottom line is if licensing happens it is going to be done on a state level and the state is going to do it the cheapest way they can and get as much money as they can out of the professional farrier. From that point on they will milk us for more money any chance they get.

The bottom line is we can either create a licensing plan we can live with by working with the state vet school to formulate a licensing program and have it ready to drop in place if/when farrier licensing is mandated by the state legislature; or, we can maintain our present posture, think happy thoughts, and act really surprised when we wake up some morning and discover some state congressrat's brother-in-law - who can't even spell "farrier" - is now in charge of our ability to earn a living.
Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Professions & Licensing 31 Mar 2009 01:35 #39

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Thanks Mr. Stovall for taking the time to answer my questions.
When it happens, it'll happen at the state level. Here in Texas, we have a very good relationship with the vet school at Texas A&M. If I were in charge of formulating a prophylactic plan, I'd start by enlisting the aid of the faculty at Texas A&M, then go from there. A plan offered by a few hundred farriers won't raise an eyebrow in Austin; a plan with the impremateur of the A&M vet school would likely be put into place before Bob gets the news.
I agree totally.
The TPFA has a helluva lot more clout with the faculty at Texas A&M than does any national organization.
I couldn't agree more.
The AFA and TPFA are IRS 501(c)(3) non profit organizations; as such, they are not allowed to lobby or contribute to politcial campaigns.
I know it was a poor example but I think you know the point I was trying to make.
The bottom line is we can either create a licensing plan we can live with by working with the state vet school to formulate a licensing program and have it ready to drop in place if/when farrier licensing is mandated by the state legislature
That is the best insurance plan we can have and all farriers should be involved regardless of their association affiliation.
Wayne White
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Please! Don't steal. The government doesn't like the competition!
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RE:Professions & Licensing 31 Mar 2009 01:59 #40

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Tom;

If workng as you suggest with Texas A&M would the Farriers eventually come under the Vet guidlines or similar guide lines with variations for farriers ?

Is this coming full circle ? For when you go back to the beginning farriers were considered veterinarians until the two seperated.
With this seperation being so aparent for so many years, are we beginning to close the gap again ?

With the trend working so hard to build a closer relation with the Vet world and learning the same jargon they use, is this actually where this is going ?

Are there things happening behind the scene's not yet revealed to the outside world before a solid foundation is established ?

Am I correct in my understanding that the Farriers of the United Kingdom are under the Veterinarian establisment
and if I am correct is this what you would believe will be a working system here ?

I guess what I am getting to is if aide and guidance comes from the Vet world will the Farriers become a profession of their own or become a trade under the watchful eye of an established profession.
(I learned the difference between a profession and a trade thanks to the help of a fellow farrier today.)

Either way, I am and have been a long time advocate for Licensing .

my 2 cents worth ;)
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RE:Professions & Licensing 31 Mar 2009 12:24 #41

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vthorseshoe

If workng as you suggest with Texas A&M would the Farriers eventually come under the Vet guidlines or similar guide lines with variations for farriers ?


If/when licensing comes to be, I think we'll either work closely with the veterinary community or political appointees. When Texas went parimutuel, state racing commission appointments was a handy place to repay political favors for the inc├║mbents, we got a bunch of deadweights on the TRC, the Maxxam tail wagged the TRC dog, and the industry has never recovered.

Is this coming full circle ? For when you go back to the beginning farriers were considered veterinarians until the two seperated.

I don't think farriers will ever attain the same status as veterinarians in the public eye, but I they'll just have to live with their pain. :)

With this seperation being so aparent for so many years, are we beginning to close the gap again ?

The TPFA and vet school at Texas A&M have maintained a good relationship for the nearly 30 years the TPFA has been in existence.

With the trend working so hard to build a closer relation with the Vet world and learning the same jargon they use, is this actually where this is going ?

I think both communities realize there's little to be gained by lack of cooperation.

Are there things happening behind the scene's not yet revealed to the outside world before a solid foundation is established ?

Not to my knowledge.

Am I correct in my understanding that the Farriers of the United Kingdom are under the Veterinarian establisment

I don't think UK veterinarians are subject to FRC qualification; I don't know anything about the farrier/vet pecking order.

and if I am correct is this what you would believe will be a working system here ?


If/when licensing comes to pass, I think the only way Texas farriers will be able to have any input into the legislative process would be for us to co-author model legislation with members of the faculty of the vet school at A&M. If it's all worked out and ready to put into place when some politician decides that Texas needs a sales tax on the services of doctors, dentists, lawyers, veterinarians, accountants, farriers, groomers, etc., model legislation with the vet school's blessing that establishes guidelines for farrier licensing, administration, and enforcement would be seen by the legislators as something well within the expertise and purview of the vet school.

Texas has no state income tax and no sales tax on professional services - we've taxed tobacco and booze into the stratosphere, so the taxation of services not already taxed is possible, perhaps even probable. Since the practice of damn near every profession and trade in Texas already requires licensure by some political entity, if/when farrier services are included in additional taxes on services, farrier licensing/registration would become necessary in order for the state to keep track of us.

Oh joy!

I guess what I am getting to is if aide and guidance comes from the Vet world will the Farriers become a profession of their own or become a trade under the watchful eye of an established profession. (I learned the difference between a profession and a trade thanks to the help of a fellow farrier today.)

If licensing has to be, I'd helluva lot rather work with veterinarians than politicians.

Either way, I am and have been a long time advocate for Licensing .

Not me. I usta think it was a good idea because, on paper, the horse benefits - but I've seen the clusterfork politicans made out of our state racing commission up close and personal and I don't want the same thing to happen to my trade. That said, I think farrier licensing will come eventually and I think we need a plan ready to put into place. Right now, our head-in-the-sand posture makes our butts a handy target.
Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Professions & Licensing 31 Mar 2009 12:43 #42

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Thanks Tom;

So many view points and just when you feel confident in your decision someone else makes a good example and your back questioning your decision.

Your responces are well put and make a lot of sense.

I would also prefer to be prepared and have a sensible plan in hand then scramble to try and correct something that comes down the road.

You make a lot of sense.

my 2 cents worth ;)
"you may not like what I say" !
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quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
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RE:Professions & Licensing 31 Mar 2009 16:02 #43

I pulled up some old threads on this subject for everyone to read.
That's all.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 01 Apr 2009 00:35 #44

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ladyblacksmith

I pulled up some old threads on this subject for everyone to read.
That's all.


Dr. Myers, your thoughts? Should the farrier community be reactive or proactive? I understand farrier/veterinarian relationships in some places are adversarial, but it ain't thataway here in Texas. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Professions & Licensing 01 Apr 2009 03:03 #45

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Personally, I usta think the AFA's CF test was laughably easy, but lotsa folks have trouble with it, so maybe something simple like demonstrating the ability to shoe two feet so the victim doesn't walk off any worse than it walked up would be sufficient. You're not trying to sift folks, just get 'em licensed with a minimum of bureaucratic interference.


If the victim that walked up needs, wedge pads, frog support, the shoes set back and a rolled toe, how is he/she walking off no worse after being shod to AFA standard? Shoeing to a standard right? Not to what someone thinks the horse needs. :)
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