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TOPIC: Professions & Licensing

RE:Professions & Licensing 29 Mar 2009 16:10 #16

  • vthorseshoe
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How much of licensing in the world of professionals is a requirement due to the insirance companies. ?

This I imagine is due to two things.

One the insurance company is taking every precaution to prevent lawsuits.

Two the insurance companies have learned over time that folks with skills but to checks and balances such as testing ones ability opens the door to hazards of one sort or another.

Face the facts, Insirance companies dictate the proceedures of all companies and many individuals over time.

my 2 cents worth ;)
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RE:Professions & Licensing 29 Mar 2009 16:50 #17

  • Mike Ferrara
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Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
Talk about a quantum leap!

IMO it takes a vivid imagination or a conspiracy theorist to get from licencing a professional to the erosion of democracy and freedom!

Licensing done appropriately merely provides a framework for ensuring those who are licenced have:

- obtained minimum standards of training and qualification and endorse those and recognise them as minimum requirements

- got focused by the regulatory body on standards, ethics, individual development and excellence

- nothing in their background that is relevent that should stop them practicing the profession (e.g. criminal convictions)

- a regulatory body that can endorse or monitor standards of conduct and capability and provide sanctions and penalties where appropriate

- a body that can educate the customer and provide information about endorsed professional practitioners

- a body that is organised and funded and as such can lobby or represent the interests of those who are licenced

You don't necessarily even need the police to enforce licencing either. Once licencing is embedded then reporting is ordinarily done by the public and to the Licence Regulators who take responsibility for meting sanction and if necessary bringing matters of civil litigation to the court. Furthermore if there's acts committed by unlicensed folks they have an interest in bringing cases to court where there's such as cruelty or animal welfare issues in conflict with existing law.

Trust me we have licencing of farriery, and riding schools in the UK and I've never seen a policeman yet and I'm still able to go and vote and express my opinion.

Though I absolutely accept that I don't have the freedom to find an untrained child abuser with a FUgly ill-treated pony to teach my grandchildren to ride or a blood-letting butcher to trim and shoe my horses.

If that's restricting my freedom and right to do just what I want, then long may it be.

Well that's why you live there and I don't want to.

BTW, it's my understanding that one or more socialist partis are fairly strong in the UK (the labor party for one). That appears to be reflected in UK policy. To each their own but, no thanks.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 29 Mar 2009 18:31 #18

as an example,a general care doctor will refer a patient to a specialist,they will probobly consult each other and compliment each other and maintain a professional image.a doctor more than likely wont talk bad about another and they probobly dont price gouge each other.i know a couple farriers that have the professionalism to behave in this manner,but most i know do not.i like the buisness how it is.people can spend as little or much as they want.people cant afford healthcare,what if we created an equine hoofcare crisis?would the govt subsidise it?
Gary W. Atchison-Mustang Farrier Service-Hillsboro Texas
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RE:Professions & Licensing 29 Mar 2009 18:57 #19

  • Mike Ferrara
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mustang farrier service wrote:
as an example,a general care doctor will refer a patient to a specialist,they will probobly consult each other and compliment each other and maintain a professional image.a doctor more than likely wont talk bad about another and they probobly dont price gouge each other.i know a couple farriers that have the professionalism to behave in this manner,but most i know do not.i like the buisness how it is.people can spend as little or much as they want.people cant afford healthcare,what if we created an equine hoofcare crisis?would the govt subsidise it?

There is a range of prices with doctors but insurance and government interference seem to be changing that. When my kids were young, I had no insurance but we had a FANTASTIC doctor with very reasonable rates.

When I was young, my father didn't make much and there was only one car. The doctor came to the house when one of us kids were sick. How many people could afford to have a doctor come to the house these days? I really get a kick out of it. You call for an appointment because someone is sick and they want to set you up with a day three weeks out...the sick person is well by then.

Examinations used to be examinations. Now they look at you for 30 seconds from across the room and charge a couple hundred bucks.

Lastly, I don't think it's very professional when "professionals" put sticking together and supporting eachother above acting in the patients best interest. They seem to forget who they're working for.

The government keeps talking about fixing it but they're how it got broke in the first place.

I like our trade the way it is too.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 29 Mar 2009 22:49 #20

vthorseshoe wrote:
How much of licensing in the world of professionals is a requirement due to the insurance companies. ?
My opinion is not much. If you go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession there is a very good definition of profession and there is also a link to professionalization. There are commonly derived steps to the process of professionalization.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:Professions & Licensing 29 Mar 2009 22:53 #21

  • ThomasRideandDrive
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Well that's why you live there and I don't want to.

BTW, it's my understanding that one or more socialist partis are fairly strong in the UK (the labor party for one). That appears to be reflected in UK policy. To each their own but, no thanks.
Believe what you want. But you're wrong!

Wrong about the politics and wrong that licencing farriers marks the end of democracy and that the socialists are heading for world domination!
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RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 02:09 #22

  • wwhite1973
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I find the licensing issue disscussion very amusing. We use doctors, nurses, and other licensed professionals as an example. Would it be a national license(probably not due to logistics), a state license or a county license? Why doesn't each state make veternarians responsible for shoeing a horse? Then if an individual wanted to become a farrier they could attend a veternarian university and become a licensed farrier by the state. Problem solved right? What about a county license? That would probably be a real joke due to local county politics. As an example there are counties in Missouri that don't require electricians to be licensed or builders for that matter and don't have county regulations either. So if the state declares that farriers have to be licensed that would be great for the care of the horse but it could be stalled in a barn that could burn to the ground because of shoddy electrical work. Now that is real comforting!:eek: If the state were to require a 4 year degree program for farriers to become licensed how many horses would pay the price? I shoe in mostly rural Missouri and I can tell you they couldn't afford to get their horses shod because farriers would have to factor their education into their prices. They are all ready doing most of their own vet work and it is like pulling teeth to get them to get rads or even have the vet do a follow up visit.
What if we approach it from a skilled trades perspective? In my area the carpenters and electricians require their members to go through an apprentice program where they are educated by the local union halls. Once you become a journeyman you have passed all their requirements and received a great deal of education. The Carpenters and IBEW have invested thousands and thousands of dollars to promote their members skills yet "John Q Public" opts for non union labor because it is cheaper.
I have seen numerous discussions for and against but my question for those that are for it, how do you implement it and what is going to be the testing protocol? Once it is implemented how do you police it? Who decides if Rick Burten, Jay Perry(sorry guys your names just came to mind) or myself used the right protocol to shoe the horse? Do we have inspectors come check our work every 6 months to make sure that we are shoeing up to standards set by the licensing? What are the administration costs going to be and is "John Q Public" going to be able to afford them when absorbed into shoeing costs. These are just some of my concerns and I have to admit I have very mixed emotions about the whole thought of licensing.
Wayne
AFA Member #10310 IRB Thoroughbred Licensed Blacksmith
Please! Don't steal. The government doesn't like the competition!
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RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 03:13 #23

  • Gary_Miller
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Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
The state boards for most professions are significantly more complex that just a few multiple choice questions. For example, most state bar exams are three days long and are predominantly essay questions.
I know nothing about the bar exams however if you do a quick research on most other professions, nurses, electricians, plumber, building inspectors, etc.. You will find that the test are all multiply guess and now days done on a computer in a testing center. A side not for a building inspector all you have to do to be certified is take a timed test on the building codes, no experience in the trades required and its open book.

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
With the ability for schools to turn out low quality diplomats because of sub standard curriculum or testing having an independent third party testing process does a lot to insure a more consistent educational result.
Wrong, it call outsourcing, by the government using a third party they don't have to pay personnel cost.

And the schools teach to the test as their accreditation is based on how many of their students pass the test

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
In farriery this would a most useful tool given the high quality educations provided by Heartland or KHS when compared to a 6 or 8 week course that are not even in the same universe.
Where do you draw the line? How much training or experience should be required before permitting a person to offer his services to the public--6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years, or double one of these periods? And who gets to make the decision?

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
No I am not fascinated in the least. I would expect that the system would keep those unwilling to conform to higher educational standards from being able to pray upon the uneducated. That is, after all the effort, why the standards exist.
Who's standard? Who should determine what the standard is? Why should they be the ones to determine the standard? And how is the standard to be enforced?

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
I have not read the author you are quoting, and given the following I doubt that I will as I do not feel obliged to clutter my mind with the writings of conspiracy theorists.
I thought you to be more intelligent than to just take ones opinion off of a web site to determine credibility of the writer. Without ever reading any of their writings.

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
“Among the high leadership of the Mormon church, H. Verlan Anderson, who passed away in 1992, was virtually alone with President Ezra Taft Benson in believing and warning that there is a socialist-communist conspiracy to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and that this conspiracy has it tentacles around the primary organs of society, including government, media, education, church, business.” Sterling D. Allan, http://www.greaterthings.com/HVerlanAndersen/last_GA_patriot.htm
Actually if you were to only study the writings of Karl Marx and his Communist Manifesto and the compare that to what has happened over the last 40 years in history of the United States Government, and what is currently happenings. You might just be surprised on how close we are to becoming a socialist-communist society. Of course you need to be open minded and honest with yourself during your research. Conspiracy or not it pretty darn scary what you will learn.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 03:42 #24

  • Gary_Miller
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Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
Talk about a quantum leap!

IMO it takes a vivid imagination or a conspiracy theorist to get from licencing a professional to the erosion of democracy and freedom!
Actually they are very related. The erosion of democracy and freedom starts with the removal of personal property and personal freedoms. Many times using the term it for the good of the public as a whole.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
Licensing done appropriately merely provides a framework for ensuring those who are licenced have:

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
Thomas_Ride&Drive;152217 wrote:
- obtained minimum standards of training and qualification and endorse those and recognise them as minimum requirements
Who's minimum standard would that be?

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
- got focused by the regulatory body on standards, ethics, individual development and excellence
Who determines who the regulatory body is?

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
- nothing in their background that is relevent that should stop them practicing the profession (e.g. criminal convictions)
I know of no profession that does a criminal background check. If there was who would determine if the person was cleared to practice in their chosen profession?

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
- a regulatory body that can endorse or monitor standards of conduct and capability and provide sanctions and penalties where appropriate
This could only be done if the government passed a law, thus enforcing the police power of the state.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
]- a body that can educate the customer and provide information about endorsed professional practitioners
Who is to determine what information is to be provided to the customer?

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
Forced removal of property in order to represent the interests of those who want to be licensed.
Thomas_Ride&Drive;152217 wrote:
You don't necessarily even need the police to enforce licencing either. Once licencing is embedded then reporting is ordinarily done by the public and to the Licence Regulators who take responsibility for meting sanction and if necessary bringing matters of civil litigation to the court. Furthermore if there's acts committed by unlicensed folks they have an interest in bringing cases to court where there's such as cruelty or animal welfare issues in conflict with existing law.
Yes but without the police power of the state there would be no way to enforce licensing.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
Trust me we have licencing of farriery, and riding schools in the UK and I've never seen a policeman yet and I'm still able to go and vote and express my opinion.
Yes but the police power of the state is what made the law which says you have to be licensed, and while you maybe able to vote an express you opinion you still have to work within the police power of the state.

Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
Though I absolutely accept that I don't have the freedom to find an untrained child abuser with a FUgly ill-treated pony to teach my grandchildren to ride or a blood-letting butcher to trim and shoe my horses.

If that's restricting my freedom and right to do just what I want, then long may it be.
I would rather have the freedom to decide for myself I don't need big daddy making my decisions for me.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 11:07 #25

  • Mike Ferrara
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Gary_Miller wrote:
Actually if you were to only study the writings of Karl Marx and his Communist Manifesto and the compare that to what has happened over the last 40 years in history of the United States Government, and what is currently happenings. You might just be surprised on how close we are to becoming a socialist-communist society. Of course you need to be open minded and honest with yourself during your research. Conspiracy or not it pretty darn scary what you will learn.

It's informative to read the liturature of the modern socialist parties which are still based on Marx but you don't have to go far in research to see that we lose more of our liberty every day. We have modern day versions of the stamp act on about 1000 different fronts.
From http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gCWPSPlgZS5xB8jhFZnElg4JejBgD977RM3G0
Some policy analysts have questioned the wisdom of boosting tobacco taxes to finance health care for children. They argue that the fate of such a broad program should not depend on revenues derived from a minority of the adult population, many of whom have low incomes and are hooked on a habit. The tobacco industry is also warning that the steep increase will lead to tax evasion through old-fashioned smuggling or by Internet purchase from abroad.

But smoking control advocates such as Lindblom say tobacco taxes should be even higher. "There's a lot of room to go after cigars and smokeless," he said. "We are certainly hopeful that health care reform will include some more increases."

"Health care reform" not only means paying for someone elses healthcare, it means bering told what health care you can have and how you must live. When the government goes after one group they don't like to subsidize another group or pet program, they're going WAY too far.

It's time to say "No" and then it's time for the talking to stop.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 11:23 #26

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Gary_Miller wrote:
Yes but without the police power of the state there would be no way to enforce licensing.
There would also be no such thing as malpractice or false advertising enforcement. That bottle of asprin . . . could be tea leaves or chicken manure. You don't know what's in the bottle unless you can test it yourself and know how to test it.

Go for an x-ray and you don't know how much radiation exposure you got. Buy a house, and you won't know if it will collpase or burn to the ground from an electrical fire unless you take it apart and inspect it - even then you don't know if the wire used will actually handle the amperage unless you test it yourself.

May as well not have any stop signs or traffic lights. You don't know if the driver comming the other way has a clue about whether red means go, stop, or go faster . . . or if he decides to stop, will his brakes work or not?

OTOH, you could buy a uniform and wear a badge and a gun and tell everybody you are a police officer. Nothing to prevent anybody that says so from deciding to be a police officer and enforcing their own laws.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 11:28 #27

  • Mike Ferrara
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Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
My opinion is not much. If you go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession there is a very good definition of profession and there is also a link to professionalization. There are commonly derived steps to the process of professionalization.


Insurance is one way the "associations" hold your nuts to the fire. Even in industries where licensing isn't required by law, there isn't any way to get insurance without working through an "association".

You then become obligated to work to their standards which are NOT necessarily good standards.

The incentive isn't even to create "good standards" Since the association may essentially get a cut of the unit price (thinking of a specific industry here), they're interested in volume rather than quality. So...the industry uses their muscle to hold quality down.

LOL, if someone wants to "professionalize" my business, they can follow me around with a broom or detail the truck.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 11:35 #28

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tbloomer wrote:
There would also be no such thing as malpractice or false advertising enforcement. That bottle of asprin . . . could be tea leaves or chicken manure. You don't know what's in the bottle unless you can test it yourself and know how to test it.

Go for an x-ray and you don't know how much radiation exposure you got. Buy a house, and you won't know if it will collpase or burn to the ground from an electrical fire unless you take it apart and inspect it - even then you don't know if the wire used will actually handle the amperage unless you test it yourself.

May as well not have any stop signs or traffic lights. You don't know if the driver comming the other way has a clue about whether red means go, stop, or go faster . . . or if he decides to stop, will his brakes work or not?

OTOH, you could buy a uniform and wear a badge and a gun and tell everybody you are a police officer. Nothing to prevent anybody that says so from deciding to be a police officer and enforcing their own laws.

I don't think anyone is advocating a complete lack of law or government. I think our founders had a pretty good idea of what government should be (very limited, for one thing) and they had a pretty good plan (the Constitution).

But people forget old lessons and they're giving up their liberties for the promise of being taken care of. Freedom is risky because you might make a mistake. People don't have the courage for it anymore.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 11:44 #29

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Gary_Miller in gray, stuff deleted

I know of no profession that does a criminal background check. If there was who would determine if the person was cleared to practice in their chosen profession?

Policemen, firemen, soldiers, doctors, lawyers, teachers, accountants, veterinarians - virtually EVERY individual in every profession undergoes some sort of criminal background check. On the other hand, while the clergy are considered professionals in the classic sense, the profession is akin to farriery in that there are no educational requirements, no licensure, no background check, no nothing - anybody who wants to call himself a preacher can be a preacher.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Professions & Licensing 30 Mar 2009 12:09 #30

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Thomas_Ride&Drive wrote:
Believe what you want. But you're wrong!

Wrong about the politics and wrong that licencing farriers marks the end of democracy and that the socialists are heading for world domination!

True socialism (which is what socialists want) can't exist in isolation. It's also not very compatible with religion or, for that matter, any kind of individualism. Read up on some of the UN treaties and resolutions. Recently, in another thread, I linked to an article on one of them that's really over the top and adresses religion. The US hasn't signed on (although some are urging it) but the UK and most other countries have.

I don't think this is the same article but it's the same treaty http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/02/25/boxer-seeks-ratify-treaty-erode-rights/
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