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TOPIC: Professions & Licensing

Professions & Licensing 28 Mar 2009 18:24 #1

Gary_Miller wrote:
It really creates government enforced monopolies.
Actually this is a misrepresentation. There is no monopoly involved. It creates a method of a profession insuring that all of the practitioners have comparable educations and have demonstrated comparable skills. Anyone capable of achieving both can enter the profession.

Gary_Miller wrote:
It takes the freedom away from the pubic to be able to freely purchase good or service from any person who offers them for sale.
I have not seen many people complaining about the fact that doctors, nurses, dentists and accountants are so limited in supply that they advocate the removal of licensure requirements to increase supply or choice. The public insists upon qualified professionals and are then free to pick from amongst those qualified professionals.

Are you now advocating for unlicensed doctors, nurses, dentists and accountants? Would you use one?
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:Professions & Licensing 28 Mar 2009 18:43 #2

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Rick Talbert wrote:
But when other professions advance and improve themselves through setting a minimal standard through a simple licensing test,
I have a daughter who is getting ready to graduate with a four year degree in nursing. When she graduates she will have the title of graduate nurse. She has a job all lined up and will start working right out of school. However, she will only be able to preform the duties of a CNA and will be paid as an CNA because that is what her current state license is, even thought she has the education required by the state to practice as a registered nurse (RN). In order for her to practice as an RN she is required to take and pass the state RN test in order to able to obtain her license.
The point I'm trying to point out is she will not have anymore education after she takes the test and obtains her license as she has when she graduates from the school. Licensing is just one more hoop she has to jump through which takes away more of her property (additional money) for the test and the license. In which she will have to renew ever couple of years. Thus the state licensing board taking her property in order for her to work in her chosen profession. She has the education the license and test is just extra. And why does it cost to take the test and obtain the license. Someone has to pay for the people administrating the test as well as pay for the people on the state licensing board.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Professions & Licensing 28 Mar 2009 19:16 #3

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Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
Actually this is a misrepresentation. There is no monopoly involved. It creates a method of a profession insuring that all of the practitioners have comparable educations and have demonstrated comparable skills. Anyone capable of achieving both can enter the profession.
In order to require licensing the police power needed to be applied. Because it has a extremely common practice we accept it as OK. However, what we have really done is "use the police power to give ourselves monopolistic protection against competitors. This would be called a criminal conspiracy and branded as extortion if forcibly engaged in without government protection and approval." (Many Are Called But Few Are Chosen, H Verlan Anderson, 1967)

"Men use a variety fo arguments to justify the use of the police power to restrict competition. Some claim there is over-production of the commodities or services they are offering.

Still others argue that open competition in their field should be prohibited because, if this were not done, the unlearned, the unskilled, and the inexperienced would be serving the public. But this argument assumes it is possible to classify men into two groups--the qualified and the unqualified. Is This assumption Valid?" (Many Are Called But Few Are Chosen, H Verlan Anderson, 1967)

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
I have not seen many people complaining about the fact that doctors, nurses, dentists and accountants are so limited in supply that they advocate the removal of licensure requirements to increase supply or choice.
Thats because it has become an extremely common practice that has the back of the police power. Without the police power licensing could not happen.

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
The public insists upon qualified professionals and are then free to pick from amongst those qualified professionals.
Is it the public that insists or is it the profession that convinced the government that the public is in capable of making it own determination of who is qualified to do a job?

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
Are you now advocating for unlicensed doctors, nurses, dentists and accountants?
If they have the education why do they need to be licensed. Except to put money and control in some organizations pocket.

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
Would you use one?
Sure as long as they had the education need to preform the procedure.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Professions & Licensing 28 Mar 2009 19:25 #4

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Gary_Miller wrote:
Someone has to pay for the people administrating the test as well as pay for the people on the state licensing board.

That's not all we're paying for. Largely due to government tampering the cost of medical care is so high that many of us can't afford to go to any doctor. Who the hell cares if they're licensed or not?

I would gladly use unlicensed doctors if the government would get out of the insurance and health care industries!
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RE:Professions & Licensing 28 Mar 2009 19:46 #5

A key element to any trade or profession is experience. I do not have a problem with licensing if it were designed to prove to the public they are hiring a competent professional. Education is important, however experience is needed. I had to attend one of my daughters driving classes with her. The instructor explained to all the kids even though they have had classes and some time behind the wheel the State of Maine requires 6 months of driving with an adult before they test for their license. The instructor emphasised the importance of documenting the driving time and gaining more experience with supervision. My daughter thinks she is an expert driver already and thinks this is a hassle. The frontal lobe of the brain is not fully developed until your around 25 or so, at this stage we have no fear and think we can do anything. I could ride any horse at that age. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
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RE:Professions & Licensing 28 Mar 2009 20:16 #6

Gary_Miller wrote:
In order for her to practice as an RN she is required to take and pass the state RN test in order to able to obtain her license.
It would not be wise to assume that everyone having taken and passed all of their individual classes has in fact retained sufficent information to pass the licensing exam which I believe is designed to exercise the full body of the required knowledge not just individual bits.

As for her costs in education and licensing, she will make of for those in enhanced earning power very quickly.

Gary_Miller wrote:
Is it the public that insists or is it the profession that convinced the government that the public is incapable of making it own determination of who is qualified to do a job?
I believe that it is the public that insists. Without the indicators of licensure how would someone know if a doctor should be practicing as a doctor.

Gary_Miller wrote:
If they have the education why do they need to be licensed.
Perhaps to prove an independent verification of knowledge retention and assimilation.

Gary_Miller wrote:
Sure as long as they had the education need to preform the procedure.
Interesting, how would you as an unskilled lay person be able to tell a quack practicing medicine from a person that is qualified?
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:Professions & Licensing 28 Mar 2009 20:41 #7

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Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
Interesting, how would you as an unskilled lay person be able to tell a quack practicing medicine from a person that is qualified?

How do we do it now? Demonstrably, licensing does NOT protect us from quacks in the medical profession or any other profession.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 28 Mar 2009 22:11 #8

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Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
It would not be wise to assume that everyone having taken and passed all of their individual classes has in fact retained sufficent information to pass the licensing exam which I believe is designed to exercise the full body of the required knowledge not just individual bits.
If they passed their classes and received their diploma then they have the required knowledge to do the job. Do you really think that someone taking and passing one more miltiple chocie test a couple of months after they graduated has anymore knowledge than they did when they received their diploma, just because that test was administered by a third party government contractor.

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
As for her costs in education and licensing, she will make of for those in enhanced earning power very quickly.
Oh no doubt.

However, that's not the point the point is its not necessary and is just one more tax on the individual without calling it a tax.

Your statement is the same argument we hear with every tax increase or bond election. The last one I heard was that it would only cost the average household $10 a month increase in there property taxes, the cost of going out to dinner for one person, I'm sure everyone can sacrifice the cost of one dinner a month.

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
I believe that it is the public that insists. Without the indicators of licensure how would someone know if a doctor should be practicing as a doctor.
I think if you did some research you would find that it was medical associations and education institutions that pushed for licensing. They then sold it to some legislature that it was needed in the name of public safety. The rest is history.

I think you will also find it fascinating to know that it was to keep people from practicing medicine who did not want to join their association or who was practicing with not much more than a few classes and a lot of book learning.

Like was already stated before, Its using the police power to give ourselves monopolistic protection against competitors.

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
Perhaps to prove an independent verification of knowledge retention and assimilation.
More likely to have absolute control over the industry thus creating "Government Enforced Monopolies"

Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
Interesting, how would you as an unskilled lay person be able to tell a quack practicing medicine from a person that is qualified?
I will answer your question with more exerts from the book I have been quoting.

"Still others argue that open competition in their field should be prohibited because, if this were not done, the unlearned, the unskilled, and the inexperienced would be serving the public. But this argument assumes it is possible to classify men into two groups--the qualified and the unqualified. Is This assumption Valid?

Let us investigate this matter by first observing that no one is perfict. There never was and there never will be a professional or buisness man who could not benifit from more knowledge, training, experience, skill, and better facilities with which to serve the public. This fact must be faced: there are not two groups of men--the qualified and the unqualified; there is only one group and every member of it is unqualified to some extent.

This being true, the only choice open is between varying degrees of incompetence, inexperience, and ignorance. Now is there a man living who can honestly claim that he is able to make the division of this group, confer special privileges on one segment which are denied to the other, and still be fair to everyone?"(Many Are Called But Few Are Chosen, H Verlan Anderson, 1967)
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Professions & Licensing 29 Mar 2009 07:05 #9

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Gary_Miller wrote:
If they passed their classes and received their diploma then they have the required knowledge to do the job. Do you really think that someone taking and passing one more miltiple chocie test a couple of months after they graduated has anymore knowledge than they did when they received their diploma, just because that test was administered by a third party government contractor.


Gary, Not that I don't agree with you that licensing doesn't guarentee you will get a good doctor, lawyer or what ever. But I do know there is a lot of cheating in College courses and exams, plus I also know you can purchase many "online" diplomas. I also know there are many lawyers who successfully pass their college courses, only to fail their State Bar Exam?

Licensing doesn't guarentee you will get good work, being certified doesn't mean you will do good work, it just means you have the knowledge and know-how to do good work.
Mikel Dawson, RJF

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RE:Professions & Licensing 29 Mar 2009 09:30 #10

Gary_Miller wrote:
If they passed their classes and received their diploma then they have the required knowledge to do the job. Do you really think that someone taking and passing one more miltiple chocie test a couple of months after they graduated has anymore knowledge than they did when they received their diploma, just because that test was administered by a third party government contractor.

The state boards for most professions are significantly more complex that just a few multiple choice questions. For example, most state bar exams are three days long and are predominantly essay questions.

With the ability for schools to turn out low quality diplomats because of sub standard curriculum or testing having an independent third party testing process does a lot to insure a more consistent educational result.

In farriery this would a most useful tool given the high quality educations provided by Heartland or KHS when compared to a 6 or 8 week course that are not even in the same universe.

Gary_Miller wrote:
I think you will also find it fascinating to know that it was to keep people from practicing medicine who did not want to join their association or who was practicing with not much more than a few classes and a lot of book learning.
No I am not fascinated in the least. I would expect that the system would keep those unwilling to conform to higher educational standards from being able to pray upon the uneducated. That is, after all the effort, why the standards exist.

Gary_Miller wrote:
I will answer your question with more exerts from the book I have been quoting.

I have not read the author you are quoting, and given the following I doubt that I will as I do not feel obliged to clutter my mind with the writings of conspiracy theorists.

“Among the high leadership of the Mormon church, H. Verlan Anderson, who passed away in 1992, was virtually alone with President Ezra Taft Benson in believing and warning that there is a socialist-communist conspiracy to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and that this conspiracy has it tentacles around the primary organs of society, including government, media, education, church, business.” Sterling D. Allan, http://www.greaterthings.com/HVerlanAndersen/last_GA_patriot.htm
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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RE:Professions & Licensing 29 Mar 2009 09:34 #11

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Mike Ferrara wrote:
That's not all we're paying for. Largely due to government tampering the cost of medical care is so high that many of us can't afford to go to any doctor. Who the hell cares if they're licensed or not?

I would gladly use unlicensed doctors if the government would get out of the insurance and health care industries!
Move to to a place where you are free to use the services of the villiage witch doctor in exchange for a few live chickens.

The witch doctor won't care whether or not your chickes are USDA inspected either. OTOH, he might have some control over how you practice your religion, who you get to marry, and the social standing of females including the females in your family.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 29 Mar 2009 10:40 #12

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beslagsmed wrote:
Licensing doesn't guarentee you will get good work . . .
Nope. I just guarantees that the "profession" has the power to decide who gets a license.

Some folks might not like the idea that "professions" have this power. But I haven't met a licensed professional who wanted to give up the power and let laypeople decide for themselves.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 29 Mar 2009 11:38 #13

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tbloomer wrote:
Nope. I just guarantees that the "profession" has the power to decide who gets a license.

Some folks might not like the idea that "professions" have this power. But I haven't met a licensed professional who wanted to give up the power and let laypeople decide for themselves.

Those with power, rarely want to give it up.
Move to to a place where you are free to use the services of the villiage witch doctor in exchange for a few live chickens.

That's a little silly. Why would I choose a witch doctor?

For that matter, why would I move? I was born here and I think I'll just dig in and keep butting heads with those who insist on trying to make my decisions.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 29 Mar 2009 11:48 #14

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Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
“Among the high leadership of the Mormon church, H. Verlan Anderson, who passed away in 1992, was virtually alone with President Ezra Taft Benson in believing and warning that there is a socialist-communist conspiracy to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and that this conspiracy has it tentacles around the primary organs of society, including government, media, education, church, business.” Sterling D. Allan, http://www.greaterthings.com/HVerlanAndersen/last_GA_patriot.htm

If you read the literature of any of the socialist parties/organizations, you get the impression that it isn't far from the truth. Heck just listen to or read what some of the members of our own government have to say.

There is always someone trying to take away freedom. No conspiracy theory needed. Just read the morning news.
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RE:Professions & Licensing 29 Mar 2009 15:26 #15

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Talk about a quantum leap!

IMO it takes a vivid imagination or a conspiracy theorist to get from licencing a professional to the erosion of democracy and freedom!

Licensing done appropriately merely provides a framework for ensuring those who are licenced have:

- obtained minimum standards of training and qualification and endorse those and recognise them as minimum requirements

- got focused by the regulatory body on standards, ethics, individual development and excellence

- nothing in their background that is relevent that should stop them practicing the profession (e.g. criminal convictions)

- a regulatory body that can endorse or monitor standards of conduct and capability and provide sanctions and penalties where appropriate

- a body that can educate the customer and provide information about endorsed professional practitioners

- a body that is organised and funded and as such can lobby or represent the interests of those who are licenced

You don't necessarily even need the police to enforce licencing either. Once licencing is embedded then reporting is ordinarily done by the public and to the Licence Regulators who take responsibility for meting sanction and if necessary bringing matters of civil litigation to the court. Furthermore if there's acts committed by unlicensed folks they have an interest in bringing cases to court where there's such as cruelty or animal welfare issues in conflict with existing law.

Trust me we have licencing of farriery, and riding schools in the UK and I've never seen a policeman yet and I'm still able to go and vote and express my opinion.

Though I absolutely accept that I don't have the freedom to find an untrained child abuser with a FUgly ill-treated pony to teach my grandchildren to ride or a blood-letting butcher to trim and shoe my horses.

If that's restricting my freedom and right to do just what I want, then long may it be.
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