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TOPIC: Improvement Clinics held for all organizations

RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 28 Mar 2009 09:33 #91

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
AFA certification is not about value on the open market because the AFA has chosen to devote its resources to meaningless contests and a shoeing team while keeping certification a secret from the horse owning public.
The contests are judged using the exact same criteria as the certification. All team members are CJFs.

The team is made up of AFA members who've volunteered to compete under the standardized, objectively quantified, criteria and obtained the highest scores and those who've either failed to achieve the highest scores or chosen for whatever reason not to compete. As such, the team represents the best farriers of the AFA based on the demonstration of their ability to out perform their competition using the same objectively quantified criteria as the certification.

I don't understand how you can say the contest is meaningless and not contradict yourself in regards to the meaningful value of certification. Doesn't every farrier who competes and wins become a better farrier in the process than those who competed and didn't win? If the certification has potential value to horse owners in regards to differentiation, then logically the contest should have even more potential value as it provides significantly more differentiation based on the same objectively quantified criteria.

If the test has credibility because is is objective, then the contest has the same credibility or higher. If the contest has no credibility or significance - meaningless, then what credibility, significance, meaning does the test criteria have?
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 28 Mar 2009 10:17 #92

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Rick Burten wrote:

Perhaps. However, what someone did years ago, in the absence of any evidence of further 'education', means very little to most people. Especially, as you so correctly note, since the AFA has routinely failed to promote what it calls its "Crown Jewel" to the horse owning public.

Recent work experience trumps ancient educational background/credentials in the work place.
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 28 Mar 2009 10:40 #93

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Phil Armitage wrote:
I do not agree with that at all. CF is a difficult test, the questions on the written is not everyday stuff that we think about, the shoe board is very difficult one of the most difficult parts of the shoe board is the square toe. All the modifications need to fit a front and hind pattern. The practical is also difficult, most of us do not fit shoes to that standard and it demonstrates ones ability and skills, which is great feedback.
Interesting perspective.

I thought the CF was a cake walk, especially the written and shoe display. Every topic on the written exam is identified in the study guide. If you take a few hours, look up and memorize the definitions, then getting a passing score on a multiple guess/true false exam shoudn't require much study effort at all. Passing a 9th grade chemistry or biology exam requires a heck of a lot more memorization then the CF writted.

The modifications on the shoe display are clearly described and shown in drawings in the study guide. I didn't even fill a 5-gallon bucket with shoes in order to build a passing shoe display. Heck you build the display while looking at a picture of exactly what your finished product is supposed to look like.

Even the practical was easy once I brought a handler that had the ability to make a horse stand still during all the hubbub and excitement of being shod during a certification.

Phil,

I think you've made the process out to be a lot more difficult for yourself than it ought to be. I've seen your work and there's no question in my mind that you have the skills to pass the exam. OTOH, you've psyched yourself into believeing that it is a difficult challenge and that frame of mind is your nemisis. Need to use the SAME CONFIDENCE you have in your daily work when you approach the test. In your daily work, you have to figure out the horse and then decide what to do. On the test, you don't have to make decisions. Stop thinking about how difficult the test is and start thinking about how easy it is. You put yourself in a pressure cooker that does not exist in your daily work.

Dude, it ain't dark, its just you keeping your eyes closed making it seem that way. Get yourself one of the bumper stickers that says "AIN'T SKEERT!"
Tom Bloomer
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 28 Mar 2009 12:36 #94

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tbloomer in gray, my old stuff in brown

AFA certification is not about value on the open market because the AFA has chosen to devote its resources to meaningless contests and a shoeing team while keeping certification a secret from the horse owning public.

The contests are judged using the exact same criteria as the certification.


Nossir, they're not. Please review the criteria that pertain to the attaining of an AFA CJF credential and those governing the selection of AFA team members. When you do, you will discover the criteria are quite different, a fact that renders your premise false and your conclusion a non sequitur.

All team members are CJFs.

Not surprising, but so what?

The team is made up of AFA members who've volunteered to compete under the standardized, objectively quantified, criteria and obtained the highest scores and those who've either failed to achieve the highest scores or chosen for whatever reason not to compete.

Allow me to correct your mistake: The AFA team is made up of CJFs who have chosen to compete, NOT those who've made the highest scores on the CJF exams.

As such, the team represents the best farriers of the AFA based on the demonstration of their ability to out perform their competition using the same objectively quantified criteria as the certification.

Wrong! The AFA shoeing team is comprised of the best competitors in the AFA, based on their demonstration of competitive ability; not the best farriers, based on their scores on the AFA's Journeyman Tests.

I don't understand how you can say the contest is meaningless and not contradict yourself in regards to the meaningful value of certification.


Think! Unless certification and competition have somehow become synonymous, your statement is uncharacteristically illogical.

Doesn't every farrier who competes and wins become a better farrier in the process than those who competed and didn't win?

Nossir, but he might become a better competitor.

If the certification has potential value to horse owners in regards to differentiation, then logically the contest should have even more potential value as it provides significantly more differentiation based on the same objectively quantified criteria.

Unfortunately for your argument, the criteria are not identical.

If the test has credibility because is is objective, then the contest has the same credibility or higher.

LMAO! If granny had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

If the contest has no credibility or significance - meaningless, then what credibility, significance, meaning does the test criteria have?

For some incomprehensible reason, you appear to have forgotten that the AFA Journeyman test is not only a test of a testee's mechanical ability to forge and shoe to a standard, it also includes a standardized academic segment which is designed to objectively quantify a testee's knowledge of equid anatomy, biophysics, common pathologies affecting the hoof, etc. Thus, unless the selection criteria for the AFA shoeing team also includes an academic portion, your attempt to equate the significance of AFA Journeyman test to horse owners with the selection of the AFA's shoeing team is an utterly illogical, apples-to-oranges, comparison.

But hey, nice try. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 28 Mar 2009 12:46 #95

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Mike Ferrara in gray

Recent work experience trumps ancient educational background/credentials in the work place.


When you say, "work place," you're swinging too big a loop because that includes professions/trades that exist at the pleasure of the state. How much "recent work experience" is available to anyone who fails, or fails to take, state board exams? Here in Texas, everyone from doctors and lawyers to barbers and beauticians to plumbers and electricians is required to take profession/trade related state board examinations.

Once. :)

Some, not all, professions/trades require some form of continuing education to maintain a cred, but CE is educational in nature does not imply "recent work experience."
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 28 Mar 2009 13:18 #96

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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Recent work experience trumps ancient educational background/credentials in the work place.
My point exactly. :)
Rick Burten PF

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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 28 Mar 2009 13:25 #97

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tbloomer;152033 wrote:
The team is made up of AFA members who've volunteered to compete under the standardized, objectively quantified, criteria and obtained the highest scores
Not quite. The team is comprised of those American competitors who prior to the start of the competition , indicate, in writing that they would be willing to be a team member. Often, the top competitors don't 'sign on" so in actuality, the team is comprised of the highest scoring competitors who opt in to the program. A good example of this is that this year's overall high point champion declined the chance to be a member of the team. And so it goes......
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 28 Mar 2009 13:40 #98

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Mike Ferrara in gray

Recent work experience trumps ancient educational background/credentials in the work place.


When you say, "work place," you're swinging too big a loop because that includes professions/trades that exist at the pleasure of the state. How much "recent work experience" is available to anyone who fails, or fails to take, state board exams? Here in Texas, everyone from doctors and lawyers to barbers and beauticians to plumbers and electricians is required to take profession/trade related state board examinations.

Once. :)

Some, not all, professions/trades require some form of continuing education to maintain a cred, but CE is educational in nature does not imply "recent work experience."

A couple things worth noting. One is the public health, safety and legal requirements of some of those professions. Another is the state to state variations. For example, here in Indiana (last time I looked), contractor licensing requirements vary from county to county and is a county function rather than a state function. Generally contractors are required to be licensed but electricians (for example) are not. Of course, the concern here is building codes and preventing buildings from falling on people or burning up around them.

I did throw a big loop with that statement but I was primarily refering to employer requirements. I obtained a degree to make it easier to get my first engineering job (it can be done without a degree) but after I had some work experience, nobody cared about the degree because actual work experience was more relevant than what I did in school. Also note that the company (the employer) viewed themselves as qualified to assess work experience and took responsibility for their hiring decisions. Emplyment and CE prereqs/requirements were set by the employer. That's somewhat in contrast to the frequent statements made here charging that horse owners (the employer) aren't qualified to assess work experience in making their own hiring decisions.
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 28 Mar 2009 13:45 #99

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Nossir, they're not. Please review the criteria that pertain to the attaining of an AFA CJF credential and those governing the selection of AFA team members. When you do, you will discover the criteria are quite different, a fact that renders your premise false and your conclusion a non sequitur.
In regards to the practical portion of the exams, until the web site was changed last year, the published guidelines for evaluating farrier certifications and competitions were one and the same.
Allow me to correct your mistake: The AFA team is made up of CJFs who have chosen to compete, NOT those who've made the highest scores on the CJF exams.
Does this mean that the practical portion of the test and the judging of competitions is judged on different criteria?
Wrong! The AFA shoeing team is comprised of the best competitors in the AFA, based on their demonstration of competitive ability; not the best farriers, based on their scores on the AFA's Journeyman Tests.
Ok. So ability to deliver is not synanamous with knowledge of what, when, why, and how to deliver. While knowledge can be objectively quantified, ability to deliver requires human judgement and quantification.
Think! Unless certification and competition have somehow become synonymous, your statement is uncharacteristically illogical.
In regards to human objective quantification of practical application, far as I know the judgeing guidelines haven't changed.

Doesn't every farrier who competes and wins become a better farrier in the process than those who competed and didn't win?

Nossir, but he might become a better competitor.
So the emphasis placed on the practical application aspect of farriery by competition is illogical?
For some incomprehensible reason, you appear to have forgotten that the AFA Journeyman test is not only a test of a testee's mechanical ability to forge and shoe to a standard, it also includes a standardized academic segment which is designed to objectively quantify a testee's knowledge of equid anatomy, biophysics, common pathologies affecting the hoof, etc.
I haven't forgotten a thing. Especially in regards to your emphasis on the credibility and objectivity of the scoreing and judging portion of the practical portion of the exam. Grading a written exam requires an answer key. Judging the practical application requires human judgement, is subjective because the humans doing the judging must be experienced and educated, and has no more or less credibility than the repeatability, reproducability, and consistancy which can be expected from a given group of judges when asked for an opinion.
Thus, unless the selection criteria for the AFA shoeing team also includes an academic portion, your attempt to equate the significance of AFA Journeyman test to horse owners with the selection of the AFA's shoeing team is an utterly illogical, apples-to-oranges, comparison.

But hey, nice try. :)
In regards to your emphasis on the credibility and objectivity of the scoreing and judging portion of the practical portion of the exam . . . nice try. :)
Tom Bloomer
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 28 Mar 2009 13:51 #100

tbloomer wrote:
Interesting perspective.

I thought the CF was a cake walk, especially the written and shoe display. Every topic on the written exam is identified in the study guide. If you take a few hours, look up and memorize the definitions, then getting a passing score on a multiple guess/true false exam shoudn't require much study effort at all. Passing a 9th grade chemistry or biology exam requires a heck of a lot more memorization then the CF writted.

The modifications on the shoe display are clearly described and shown in drawings in the study guide. I didn't even fill a 5-gallon bucket with shoes in order to build a passing shoe display. Heck you build the display while looking at a picture of exactly what your finished product is supposed to look like.

Even the practical was easy once I brought a handler that had the ability to make a horse stand still during all the hubbub and excitement of being shod during a certification.

Phil,

I think you've made the process out to be a lot more difficult for yourself than it ought to be. I've seen your work and there's no question in my mind that you have the skills to pass the exam. OTOH, you've psyched yourself into believeing that it is a difficult challenge and that frame of mind is your nemisis. Need to use the SAME CONFIDENCE you have in your daily work when you approach the test. In your daily work, you have to figure out the horse and then decide what to do. On the test, you don't have to make decisions. Stop thinking about how difficult the test is and start thinking about how easy it is. You put yourself in a pressure cooker that does not exist in your daily work.

Dude, it ain't dark, its just you keeping your eyes closed making it seem that way. Get yourself one of the bumper stickers that says "AIN'T SKEERT!"

Well, I'm sure a few might be getting a good laugh about now. :D

I'm ain't skeert buddy, my point to Pat was that the CF and CJF is a huge achievement. Comments such as yours in my opinion undermine what a rare bunch have achieved going for their certification. When you compare the test to a 9th grade chemistry and biology test are you being sarcastic? Just asking because it sure came across as negative and sarcasm.

Thanks for the kind words and vote of confidence. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 28 Mar 2009 13:55 #101

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
reillyshoe in gray

If the reason for preparing for a test is to gain knowledge and improve skill, then there is no reason to stop participating in certification programs.

All certification programs are not created equal. The only ones I consider worthwhile are standardized and objectively quantified.
Well that kills the Theraputic Endorsement. The test has essay questions and a live presentation. The whole thing is subjectively quantified by human judgement as is the practical portion of every exam offered by every organization.
Tom Bloomer
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 28 Mar 2009 14:12 #102

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Phil Armitage wrote:
I'm ain't skeert buddy, my point to Pat was that the CF and CJF is a huge achievement.
Technically they are BASIC achievements. They each represent MINIMUM standards of accomplishment, not MAXIMUM standards of accomplishment.
Comments such as yours in my opinion undermine what a rare bunch have achieved going for their certification. When you compare the test to a 9th grade chemistry and biology test are you being sarcastic? Just asking because it sure came across as negative and sarcasm.
No sarcasim or negativity intended. My 9th grade biology text book was a lot bigger and contained a lot more complex information and required a lot more effort to memorize stuff for regurgitation on tests. So much so, that the testes were broken down into individual chapters and each chapter required an effort in study and memorization which ultimately required retention of key concepts which were also tested on the final exam.

In addition, I had to dissect frogs, pigs, fish, and worms and identify their anitomical parts, reproductive cycles and systems, etc. in much greater detail that one needs to know the anatomical structures of a horse to pass the AFA or any other certifcation written exams offered by US based organizations.
Thanks for the kind words and vote of confidence. :)
Just don't let my faith in you hold you back. :p
Tom Bloomer
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 28 Mar 2009 14:25 #103

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tbloomer wrote:
Well that kills the Theraputic Endorsement. The test has essay questions and a live presentation. The whole thing is subjectively quantified by human judgement as is the practical portion of every exam offered by every organization.

I think Tom S. is over-rating the alleged objectivity of the test. Physical and temporal parameters can be objectively specified and measured, however, it's common and legitimate to test and evaluate other criteria that are just as, if not more, important.

As far as I'm concerned, a quick look at what the AFA tests and how, clearly illustrates why clients don't care. Client requirements and AFA requirements aren't very closely related. The client may notice overall appearance but is often most concerned with relative comfort and performance of the horse.

We joke about clients being concerned with how long shoes stay on but a shoe that isn't on the horse isn't very useful, is it?
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 28 Mar 2009 14:42 #104

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Mike Ferrara wrote:
I think Tom S. is over-rating the alleged objectivity of the test.
He is often known to under-rate a dressage test as a means of quantifying athleticism in horses. Yet, pull out stopwatches and cameras, make it a "real competition" . . . objectively quantified. Yet, we cannot predict the outcome of a race with any significant repeatibility?

I would love to be able to bet on the winner of a dressage test after having prior knowledge of past performance. Way better odds for the educated better. ;)
Tom Bloomer
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 28 Mar 2009 15:22 #105

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
someone who has either failed the tests or failed to volunteer to take the tests.
Tom,

You say this over and over and over. You are attempting to equate two very different states of being.

Someone who has stepped up and taken the exam and for whatever been unable to pass the exam in that attempt is not a failure. They have guts and commitment because they laid it on the line yet they did not have the knowledge, motor skill or experience to master all of the elements. Now I’ll agree that they are failing themselves if they do not keep coming back until they do pass, but I’ll not agree to call them failures.

Someone that does not make the choice to take an AFA exam has not failed a damn thing. They simply have not chosen to. The value of taking and passing the exam is not sufficient to entice these individuals into taking the time to take the exam. Frankly this is a failure in marketing the value of being an AFA Certified or Certified Journeyman Farrier. You have repeatedly and rather adroitly pointed out that the AFA has failed and is continuing to fail to properly market their certification program. If the program had value then farriers would flock to it.

Frankly it is either the height of arrogance or ignorance to pillory anyone that doesn’t take and pass any certification exam regardless of who’s its author. All it really does is leave a sour taste in the mouths of people you want to entice and create a wall that most independent minded individuals are unwilling to work to penetrate.

If the AFA wants every farrier to take its exam, then it needs to create compelling value. If you want to see everyone take the AFA exams then you need to work to help the AFA create that compelling value. But it is a bit hypocritical to jump people for seeing what you see, a lack of compelling value, and choosing to not waist their time and money.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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