Mike Ferrara wrote:My experience is exactly the opposite. There are a lot of affluent clients willing to spend whatever it takes to keep thier "family pet" comfortable and some not so affluent clients will sacrifice their own luxuries to fund the best hoof care care they can find.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:

Tom,
If the reason for preparing for a test is to gain knowledge and improve skill, then there is no reason to stop participating in certification programs. That is, unless you are beyond the learning phase... Physical limitations might affect the outcome of the test, but if you buy into the "journey" argument, passing said test is only an added bonus.

tbloomer wrote:
Sure there are some.

The point of the conversation though was Tom S downplaying the numbers and significance of show horses...or I guess any specialty? I have some clients who pay well to have me stop by and trim their one or two old retired horses and I have some clients with a non-working horses they pay a lot to board and they're on the shoeing/trimming schedule with all the others. I can't think of any that are in shoes and they don't make up a significant portion of my income. In most cases, if it weren't for the specialty, I wouldn't be in that barn working anyway.

Out here in the country, folks bypass the guy with AFA CJF painted on the side of his truck who spoke at their pony club meeting on their way to pick up the Amish farrier. They know about AFA certification.

Mike Ferrara in gray, stuff deleted

Those [Morris Animal Foundation Survey] numbers might not tell us what we need to know. Where I live, there are horses everywhere...nobody is spending any money on them but they're there. When they have to get a farrier, they may go to the Amish or the feed store.

Horses are a luxury. Folks who can't afford luxuries have to take what they can get.

Yes, in my experience most people aren't going to spend any money getting some geriatric puke pain free as he goes from feed to water to shelter. It might be hard but there's no money in it.

Priorities are often the difference between folks who like horses and folks who like the idea of having horses. No offense intended and this concept may be difficult for you to grasp, but folks who care about their livestock will often feed their horses (cows, hogs, goats) before they feed themselves.

No, I'm not kidding. The folks I referenced above know about certification but they don't care unless they can get that certified farrier to shoe for $35.

LMAO! I find it passing strange that you'd think folks would be aware of the AFA's certification while worrying more about price than quality. At any rate, horses in the care of such folks are usually left to the tender ministrations of the trade's bottom feeders.

Great but that's not what a potential client wants to know. The test is answering a question that nobody is asking.

The AFA's tests answer questions every potential client should be asking, but the onus is on the AFA's for its failure to let anyone looking for a farrier know they have a choice between someone who has passed a difficult, standardized, test of knowledge and motor skills and somebody who has either failed the test or, for whatever reason, failed to volunteer for the test.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Nothing here is difficult to grasp. There's a lot of work out there for the bottom feeders and price is a primary concern for many horse owners. Those are the people getting names from the feed store.

One other point I'd make is that while folks around here like the Amish prices, what little I've seen of their work around here looks ok. You'd have to really impress folks with a certification to get them away from those $15 trims and $35 shoeings.
No it doesn't. Even if we stick to your target market and say we have an old foundered backyard horse that we want to keep comfortable. The AFA cert doesn't tell us whether the farrier has any experience at all with laminitis and it tells us nothing about his performance if he has. That foundered horse is just another "specialty".

reillyshoe in gray

If the reason for preparing for a test is to gain knowledge and improve skill, then there is no reason to stop participating in certification programs.

All certification programs are not created equal. The only ones I consider worthwhile are standardized and objectively quantified.

That is, unless you are beyond the learning phase...

At this point in my life, I'm beyond the give-a-damn phase. Time is a finite commodity and I have other interests.

Physical limitations might affect the outcome of the test, but if you buy into the "journey" argument, passing said test is only an added bonus.

LMAO! Right now, my "journey" concerns the chemistry of fixatives and running a CNC plasma cutter. Since I've retired, I'm no longer concerned with becoming a better farrier; however, I am concerned with the industry and I feel the overall quality of farriery in this country could be improved by the AFA's devoting its resources to creating public awareness of their certification program. Unfortunately, until it's open to the world, even the folks who're aware of AFA certification's value will tend to view it as a ploy to gain recruits.

Mike Ferrara in gray, stuff deleted

Even if we stick to your target market and say we have an old foundered backyard horse that we want to keep comfortable. The AFA cert doesn't tell us whether the farrier has any experience at all with laminitis and it tells us nothing about his performance if he has. That foundered horse is just another "specialty".

If folks are made aware of the AFA's certification program, then anyone in the target market with an old, foundered, backyard horse who is looking for a farrier will be able choose between an AFA certified farrier - who has demonstrated his knowledge of various methods of remediating common pathologies of the hoof as well as the motor skills associated with farriery - and someone who has either failed the tests or failed to volunteer to take the tests.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:How so? If you are referring to knowledge as demonstrated through successful completion of the AFA written exam, then you are, IME, mistaken.
And, what of the farrier who carriers an AFA credential that s/he attained many years ago? All that does is assure the public that at one time, that individual was able to successfully meet a standard for knowledge and general motor skills related to farriery. It does not however, in spite of what some would have us believe, demonstrate the current level of knowledge and motor skills related to farriery, of anyone holding the credential.

Surely, you are not suggesting that someone who achieved an AFA credential "x" number of years ago, is, because of that long ago accomplishment, necessarily a better farrier than some one who does not hold said credential.
IME, It Depends. Not volunteering to stand for the exams implies nothing. That said, there seems to be a pervasive conceit among those who have stood for the exams, especially those who have been successful, that those who have not stood for the exams are somehow 'lesser individuals', or are somehow lacking in skill, knowledge and ability. And it is that attitude, whether perceived or actual that haunts the exam concept and process.

Rick Burten in gray, my old stuff in brown

If folks are made aware of the AFA's certification program, then anyone in the target market with an old, foundered, backyard horse who is looking for a farrier will be able choose between an AFA certified farrier - who has demonstrated his knowledge of various methods of remediating common pathologies of the hoof as well as the motor skills associated with farriery

How so? If you are referring to knowledge as demonstrated through successful completion of the AFA written exam, then you are, IME, mistaken.

In my experience, folks who are able to pass the the AFA CF or CJF written exams have demonstrated a working knowledge of both the etiology and remediation of common pathologies affecting the hoof.

And, what of the farrier who carriers an AFA credential that s/he attained many years ago?

I know quite a few farriers who are AFA certified, but I don't know any working farrier who has attained an AFA credential who does not regularly attend various clinics, wet labs, lectures, etc. Do you?

All that does is assure the public that at one time, that individual was able to successfully meet a standard for knowledge and general motor skills related to farriery.

In reality, a farrier who passes the AFA's objectively quantified, standardized, tests of knowledge and motor skills a single time has demonstrated his ability to "successfully meet a standard of knowledge and general motor skills" exactly one more time than that which has been demonstrated by anyone who has either failed the tests or has failed to volunteer for the tests. One verses none.

It does not however, in spite of what some would have us believe, demonstrate the current level of knowledge and motor skills related to farriery, of anyone holding the credential.

Please be aware that this is your assertion, not mine. Kindly respond to what I've written, not your attempted spin.

Surely, you are not suggesting that someone who achieved an AFA credential "x" number of years ago, is, because of that long ago accomplishment, necessarily a better farrier than some one who does not hold said credential.

I didn't "suggest" anything and I sure as hell have never used the term "better" when comparing successful AFA testees with other farriers! Again, please respond to what I write, not your attempted spin on what I've written.

If folks are made aware of the AFA's certification program, then anyone in the target market with an old, foundered, backyard horse who is looking for a farrier will be able choose between an AFA certified farrier - who has demonstrated his knowledge of various methods of remediating common pathologies of the hoof as well as the motor skills associated with farriery - and someone who has either failed the tests or failed to volunteer to take the tests.

IME, It Depends.

Depends on what?

Not volunteering to stand for the exams implies nothing.

Au contraire! Not volunteering for the AFA's tests states most eloquently - not implies - that either one is unaware of the AFA's testing program or one has chosen, for whatever reason, not to take the tests.

That said, there seems to be a pervasive conceit among those who have stood for the exams, especially those who have been successful, that those who have not stood for the exams are somehow 'lesser individuals', or are somehow lacking in skill, knowledge and ability. And it is that attitude, whether perceived or actual that haunts the exam concept and process.

Perhaps so. However, the point will remain moot until/when the AFA gets off its collective arse and devotes its resources to creating a demand for certified farriers, first by opening up the testing process to anyone who chooses to stand for the tests, then by advertising in the media that the public has a choice between farriers who've volunteered to stand for the only standardized, objectively quantified, tests available to farriers in the US and those who've either failed the AFA's tests or chosen not to take them. Until then, the public will be at the mercy of the feed store bulletin board.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:IME, very rudimentary at best. And that opinion is based on my knowledge of the questions on the exams.Unfortunately, yes. Very true. The big question remains, so what? Not everyone volunteers for military service either. Does that fact somehow impugn their integrity, skill or knowledge? If someone in the military, with full military training in how to fire a weapon, achieves the "Expert" qualification, does that somehow imply that said individual is a better shot than say someone else who is equally skilled with the weapon but never volunteered to take the test by joining the military?Sorry Tom, it doesn't work quite that way. Though you may not like or appreciate it, I am responding to you and I'm not trying to spin anything. But I am and will offer an alternative viewpoint to yours when/if I feel it is warranted.See above.Many things, not the least of which is how long ago the credential was earned and what the individual has done since then to maintain or increase his knowledge and skill base.So? If that's all, according to you it implies, then I stand by what I wrote. It means nothing except perhaps to those who are pushing the agenda of AFA testing.No disagreement here, though I would suspect that those of the BWFA persuasion might beg to differ.Maybe yes, maybe no. As with most everything relating to equids, It Depends.

Rick Burten in gray, my old stuff in brown

In my experience, folks who are able to pass the the AFA CF or CJF written exams have demonstrated a working knowledge of both the etiology and remediation of common pathologies affecting the hoof.

IME, very rudimentary at best. And that opinion is based on my knowledge of the questions on the exams.

In the remediation of pathologies, rudimentary knowledge trumps demonstrable ignorance every time.

I know quite a few farriers who are AFA certified, but I don't know any working farrier who has attained an AFA credential who does not regularly attend various clinics, wet labs, lectures, etc. Do you?

Unfortunately, yes.

Try as I may, I can't think of a single one.

In reality, a farrier who passes the AFA's objectively quantified, standardized, tests of knowledge and motor skills a single time has demonstrated his ability to "successfully meet a standard of knowledge and general motor skills" exactly one more time than that which has been demonstrated by anyone who has either failed the tests or has failed to volunteer for the tests. One verses none.

Very true. The big question remains, so what?

If one is a horse owner seeking the services of a farrier, the knowledge that a prospective farrier was able to "successfully meet a standard of knowledge and general motor skills" at least once becomes a very big "so what" when one considers the possibilities intrinsic to the alternative.

Not everyone volunteers for military service either.

LMAO! My goodness, can't you think of a more logical analogy?

Please be aware that this is your assertion, not mine. Kindly respond to what I've written, not your attempted spin.

Sorry Tom, it doesn't work quite that way. Though you may not like or appreciate it, I am responding to you and I'm not trying to spin anything. But I am and will offer an alternative viewpoint to yours when/if I feel it is warranted.

Alternative viewpoints are welcomed, but please confine your responses to statements I've actually made.

I didn't "suggest" anything and I sure as hell have never used the term "better" when comparing successful AFA testees with other farriers! Again, please respond to what I write, not your attempted spin on what I've written.

See above.

Please be kind enough to heed your own advice. Take careful note of my use of the word, "never."

Depends on what?

Many things, not the least of which is how long ago the credential was earned and what the individual has done since then to maintain or increase his knowledge and skill base.

As advertised, I don't know any working farrier with AFA creds who does not regularly seek to "keep up." Come to think of it, I don't know any competent farrier of any political persuasion or certification status - however attained or disdained - who doesn't try to keep up. Do you?

Not volunteering for the AFA's tests states most eloquently - not implies - that either one is unaware of the AFA's testing program or one has chosen, for whatever reason, not to take the tests.

So? If that's all, according to you it implies, then I stand by what I wrote. It means nothing except perhaps to those who are pushing the agenda of AFA testing.

Perhaps you should ask yourself, "Is Tom's statement true?" Since it is, then it is what it is, however unpalatable the truth may be to you. As you've pointed out several times, truth is an absolute defense against claims of foul play.

The point will remain moot until/when the AFA gets off its collective arse and devotes its resources to creating a demand for certified farriers, first by opening up the testing process to anyone who chooses to stand for the tests, then by advertising in the media that the public has a choice between farriers who've volunteered to stand for the only standardized, objectively quantified, tests available to farriers in the US and those who've either failed the AFA's tests or chosen not to take them.

No disagreement here, though I would suspect that those of the BWFA persuasion might beg to differ.

I have the greatest respect for some members of the BWFA, but an organization's credibility tends to suffer a bit when their testing certificates have a history of being passed out like bubble gum to Little Leaguers.

Until then, the public will be at the mercy of the feed store bulletin board.

Maybe yes, maybe no. As with most everything relating to equids, It Depends.

Given the 30-odd year failure of the AFA to promote certification, I don't hold out a helluva lot of hope for the AFA's mounting a campaign to make the public aware of their certification program and its benefits to the horse owing public anytime soon - but hope springs eternal.

reillyshoe wrote:
I agree with the part it is a journey and continue to learn. I'm not sure if guys actually stop at CF and CJF, I think what happens is it takes a lot of effort, practice and study to pass these tests. It has been said on here that the CF is a basic test and should be an easy task to accomplish since we do it every day. I do not agree with that at all. CF is a difficult test, the questions on the written is not everyday stuff that we think about, the shoe board is very difficult one of the most difficult parts of the shoe board is the square toe. All the modifications need to fit a front and hind pattern. The practical is also difficult, most of us do not fit shoes to that standard and it demonstrates ones ability and skills, which is great feedback. CJF is a whole different ball game because the horse needs to be shod in handmades. Unless you hook up with someone that can teach you how to practice correctly it is almost impossible to pass this test. I tried to learn on my own and got very frustrated, also picked up a lot of bad habits. One thing this journey has done for me is meeting great folks that know how to teach what they know and get me on the right road. So far everyone that has helped me is from the AFA. As I take this journey I am seeing more and more things that I never imagined about horseshoeing. Very exciting and starting to become very enjoyable.

I sure wanted to go to the TPFA clinic this weekend at David Edens shop in Graham, Tx. My stepson is showing and selling a steer today and tomorrow at the local County Show so I will miss it. Looked forward to Austin Edens Clinic there, he will be shoeing for dressage, even tho I don't have anyone doing that with their horses now, I would of enjoyed the education! That and see if I can still beat Little Jeffy on the pool table?

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:So if someone chooses, for whatever reason(s) not to stand for the AFA certs, they are demonstrably ignorant?Perhaps. However, what someone did years ago, in the absence of any evidence of further 'education', means very little to most people. Especially, as you so correctly note, since the AFA has routinely failed to promote what it calls its "Crown Jewel" to the horse owning public.Now Tom, you know better than that. As you so often point out, you don't get to tell me(or anyone else for that matter), how to respond to your or anyone else's responses. As you also so correctly point out, you get to choose whether to read the replies of others, respond to replies of others, or ignore the replies of others. Its your choice and, again as you are wont to observe, "no me importa" With your now added qualifier of "competent", no, I don't.Its not unpalatable to me, and now who's trying to spin doctor?I agree. Unfortunately, I think that neither you or I will live long enough to see if it does indeed happen.

Rick Burten in gray, my old stuff in brown, stuff deleted

In the remediation of pathologies, rudimentary knowledge trumps demonstrable ignorance every time

So if someone chooses, for whatever reason(s) not to stand for the AFA certs, they are demonstrably ignorant?

LMAO! You said that, not me.

If one is a horse owner seeking the services of a farrier, the knowledge that a prospective farrier was able to "successfully meet a standard of knowledge and general motor skills" at least once becomes a very big "so what" when one considers the possibilities intrinsic to the alternative.

Perhaps. However, what someone did years ago, in the absence of any evidence of further 'education', means very little to most people. Especially, as you so correctly note, since the AFA has routinely failed to promote what it calls its "Crown Jewel" to the horse owning public.

A single demonstration beats the hell out of no demonstration. I'll take your word that you know individuals who've passed the AFA's tests, then failed to keep up, but I know a helluva bunch of working farriers, certified and otherwise, and none of them - not a single one - will fit on your bunch. Here in Texas, if you're shoeing good horses, you're keeping up or somebody else will be shoeing your barns because every farrier is only as good as his last shoeing.

Alternative viewpoints are welcomed, but please confine your responses to statements I've actually made

Now Tom, you know better than that. As you so often point out, you don't get to tell me(or anyone else for that matter), how to respond to your or anyone else's responses. As you also so correctly point out, you get to choose whether to read the replies of others, respond to replies of others, or ignore the replies of others. Its your choice and, again as you are wont to observe, "no me importa"

Your call. However, your arguments would probably be more convincing if you directed them toward statements I've actually made instead of those emanating from your imagination, then attributed to me.

As advertised, I don't know any working farrier with AFA creds who does not regularly seek to "keep up." Come to think of it, I don't know any competent farrier of any political persuasion or certification status - however attained or disdained - who doesn't try to keep up. Do you?

With your now added qualifier of "competent", no, I don't.

Do you know any working AFA CF or CJFs whom you would deem incompetent? I don't, and I know quite a few of 'em.

Perhaps you should ask yourself, "Is Tom's statement true?" Since it is, then it is what it is, however unpalatable the truth may be to you.

Its not unpalatable to me, and now who's trying to spin doctor?

You coulda fooled me, but I'm glad it's not unpalatable to you because the statement is unarguably true.

Personally, I'd like to see the AFA advertise in some of the slick English rags with ads that focused on the theme that AFA certification gives the public a choice between a farrier who has passed a difficult, standardized, objectively quantified, test and someone who has either failed the test; or, for whatever reason, failed to take the test. I think it'll sell, simply because it's true.

Given the 30-odd year failure of the AFA to promote certification, I don't hold out a helluva lot of hope for the AFA's mounting a campaign to make the public aware of their certification program and its benefits to the horse owing public anytime soon - but hope springs eternal.

I agree. Unfortunately, I think that neither you or I will live long enough to see if it does indeed happen.

You're probably right.