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TOPIC: Improvement Clinics held for all organizations

RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 23 Mar 2009 04:59 #31

Gary_Miller wrote:
How many of them had some influence from someone who was not a CJF? Before CJF was even available? Before the AFA was even an organization?

Jake, I still don't think you get it. Its not the organization that makes the individual. An organization is only a group of people who share the same interest and have a desire to get together and discuss/share that interest.
The organization was developed by the individuals to better facilitate education . any trade benefits by imposing some sort of standards, that should be met by it's members. Sure many of those may have not had influence from a certified farrier, but many more have been shaped in some way or another by them. And it is not a bad practice to go off of either!!!
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 23 Mar 2009 12:06 #32

  • Mike Ferrara
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I guess it just depends where you come from. Among those that I've learned the most from and have been helped most by over the years and those that taught them, certifications and association affiliations are scarce.
Jake wrote:
The organization was developed by the individuals to better facilitate education

I'm not convinced. A school or an individual who is teaching provides education. "The organization" offers a magazine and a test. Does the test exist to facilitate education? Mybe, but I have my doubts about that too.

In any case, I tend to give credit for what an individual accomplishes to the individual rather than to an organization. While it might seem like semantics, in a time when we have a government who thinks they can fix everything by interfering with the individual, I think it's an absolutely critical distinction.

If an organization succeeds, it's because of the individuals and not the other way around.
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 23 Mar 2009 13:53 #33

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Jake Whitman wrote:
The organization was developed by the individuals to better facilitate education .
They missed that boat all togeather.

Jake Whitman wrote:
any trade benefits by imposing some sort of standards, that should be met by it's members.
What standards would that be? The AFA can't even follow their own by-laws.

Jake Whitman wrote:
Sure many of those may have not had influence from a certified farrier, but many more have been shaped in some way or another by them.
I think you are giving to much credit to the certification and not enough to the individual. I have seen alot of bad farriery by CF's and CJF's.
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 23 Mar 2009 14:01 #34

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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Does the test exist to facilitate education? Mybe, but I have my doubts about that too.
Mike you bad boy, don't you know the path to certification in an education all by its self.:eek: Come on man pay attention.:D
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 24 Mar 2009 01:23 #35

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Mike Ferrara in gray

I guess it just depends where you come from. Among those that I've learned the most from and have been helped most by over the years and those that taught them, certifications and association affiliations are scarce.

Fair enough. Apparently, your primary focus is ASBs - but ASBs are a minuscule part of the horse world and none of the padded foot disciplines' numbers amount to a hill of beans when compared to TB and quarter-type horses. You've found a tiny niche and apparently think that niche has some relationship to the real world of horseshoeing.

It doesn't.

I'm not convinced. A school or an individual who is teaching provides education.

Quite so. But, sooner or later, all education is quantified by some means.

"The organization" offers a magazine and a test.

More accurately put, the AFA offer standardized, objectively quantified tests that effectively measure both knowledge and the motor skills necessary to meet standardized criteria. The AFA's tests are voluntary, whining about failing them, or not having the guts to take them, is optional. :)

Does the test exist to facilitate education? Mybe, but I have my doubts about that too.

It's easy to criticize something you've never had the nads to do yourself. One can only wonder why those who devote the time and study necessary to pass the AFA's tests are united in their opinion that the effort made them a better horseshoer; while those who've tried and failed sometimes find it easier to whine about the unfairness of it all instead of resolving to devote the time and effort necessary to retaking and passing the test, as well as those who lack the testicular fortitude to stand for the tests, are quick to criticize the tests as not being worthwhile. It appears there's a correlation.

In any case, I tend to give credit for what an individual accomplishes to the individual rather than to an organization.


Any organization is merely the sum of its parts: Good parts make for good organizations; the converse is also true.

While it might seem like semantics, in a time when we have a government who thinks they can fix everything by interfering with the individual, I think it's an absolutely critical distinction.

LMAO! While this may come as a shock, various systems of lassiez faire economics have been tried numerous times in our country's history and failed at every asking. Right now, Russia is the best example of lassiez faire economics in the world: Ain't it working great?

If an organization succeeds, it's because of the individuals and not the other way around.

How could it be otherwise?
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 24 Mar 2009 01:48 #36

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Gary_Miller in gray

They missed that boat all togeather.


If you're talking about testing boat, it's damn sure afloat and going to get even more seaworthy if the AFA pulls its head out of its arse, does the right thing, and opens it up to the world instead of making wannabe testees join the club.

What standards would that be? The AFA can't even follow their own by-laws.

If you have evidence of malfeasance, trot it out; otherwise, your mindless innuendos are as meaningful as distant mouse flatulence.

I think you are giving to much credit to the certification and not enough to the individual.

Individuals do the certifying. Win/win.

I have seen alot of bad farriery by CF's and CJF's.

One's passing the AFA's tests is indicative of abilty, not resolve. Personally, I have the utmost contempt for anyone who knows how to shoe a horse and doesn't give every horse his best shot; on the other hand, the overwhelming majority of the bad work I've seen in my lifetime has been done by folks who really didn't know they were doing poor work.

Does your vast experience vary?
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 24 Mar 2009 07:08 #37

  • Mike Ferrara
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Mike Ferrara in gray

I guess it just depends where you come from. Among those that I've learned the most from and have been helped most by over the years and those that taught them, certifications and association affiliations are scarce.

Fair enough. Apparently, your primary focus is ASBs - but ASBs are a minuscule part of the horse world and none of the padded foot disciplines' numbers amount to a hill of beans when compared to TB and quarter-type horses. You've found a tiny niche and apparently think that niche has some relationship to the real world of horseshoeing.

It doesn't.

What does the specific discipline have to do with it?

"The organization" offers a magazine and a test.

More accurately put, the AFA offer standardized, objectively quantified tests that effectively measure both knowledge and the motor skills necessary to meet standardized criteria. The AFA's tests are voluntary, whining about failing them, or not having the guts to take them, is optional. :)

Pointing out that the AFA offers a test rather than an education isn't whining. It's a simple statement of fact.

Still, having an extensive background in test and measurement, I see plenty of grounds to question the objectivity of the evaluation. Your claim that it's objective, doesn't make it so.

To offer just one more correction the test doesn't verify the ability to meet "standardized criteria" as in any and all standardized criteria. Assuming the evaluation is a capable process (an R&R study would carry some weight here) it verifies the ability to meet a single set of criteria.

Does the test exist to facilitate education? Mybe, but I have my doubts about that too.

It's easy to criticize something you've never had the nads to do yourself.

Nads again? LOL, actually it's a straight forward enough matter to discuss the relative merits based on the information at hand...or you can center the discussion on nads.

One can only wonder why those who devote the time and study necessary to pass the AFA's tests are united in their opinion that the effort made them a better horseshoer; while those who've tried and failed sometimes find it easier to whine about the unfairness of it all instead of resolving to devote the time and effort necessary to retaking and passing the test, as well as those who lack the testicular fortitude to stand for the tests, are quick to criticize the tests as not being worthwhile. It appears there's a correlation.

The correlation is that you seem to be stuck on the issue of testicles. LOL

Beyond that, the primary flaw in your logic is that you only allow for three possibilities...1, take the test and pass. 2, take the test, fail and whine. 3, Lack the "testicular" fortitude to take the test. Clearly, there are many more possibilities.

As to any "correlation", you wouldn't care to present your data, sampling methods and calculations would you?

It would be more interesting to see a correlation between certified/non-certified and earnings, client satisfaction or some other measureable that could be used as an indicator of success in the trade?
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 24 Mar 2009 07:23 #38

  • Mike Ferrara
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Gary_Miller in gray

I have seen alot of bad farriery by CF's and CJF's.

One's passing the AFA's tests is indicative of abilty, not resolve. Personally, I have the utmost contempt for anyone who knows how to shoe a horse and doesn't give every horse his best shot; on the other hand, the overwhelming majority of the bad work I've seen in my lifetime has been done by folks who really didn't know they were doing poor work.

Does your vast experience vary?

The majority of "bad work" that I've seen was done by folks who don't seem to care.

I have seen the work of quite a few farriers on quite a few horses in a comparable setting from both certified and non certified farriers. The work is generally comparable with the edge going to those with the greater experience. I wouldn't try to use certification as a predictor.
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 24 Mar 2009 07:44 #39

Mike Ferrara wrote:
The majority of "bad work" that I've seen was done by folks who don't seem to care.

I have seen the work of quite a few farriers on quite a few horses in a comparable setting from both certified and non certified farriers. The work is generally comparable with the edge going to those with the greater experience. I wouldn't try to use certification as a predictor.
I have seen more of the 30 years experience , guys that do the same job that they learned the first year, and followed it with that experience, 29 more times.
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 24 Mar 2009 13:04 #40

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Mike Ferrara in gray

What does the specific discipline have to do with it?


Insularity, lack of general experience.

Pointing out that the AFA offers a test rather than an education isn't whining. It's a simple statement of fact.

Silly me, I kinda figured all those pre-certification clinics were an education of sorts.

Still, having an extensive background in test and measurement, I see plenty of grounds to question the objectivity of the evaluation
.

In reality, you have no experience specific to the testing and measuring of farrier skills.

Your claim that it's objective, doesn't make it so.

While any human evaluation interjects an element of subjectivity into the process, the AFA's standardized testing criteria and standardized evaluation criteria are indicative of an overall commitment to making the testing process as objective as humanly possible. In this country, the AFA's tests are unique in this respect.

To offer just one more correction the test doesn't verify the ability to meet "standardized criteria" as in any and all standardized criteria.


True, the AFA's tests don't evaluate one's ability to shoe any particular set of horses (e.g., foot wavers, reiners, or flat racers); however, the AFA's tests do evaluate a testee's ability to shoe a horse according to published, standardized, criteria, some form of which is common to the shoeing of every horse.

Assuming the evaluation is a capable process (an R&R study would carry some weight here) it verifies the ability to meet a single set of criteria.

While the AFA's testing criteria are arbitrary and inflexible in order to insure as objective an evaluation of the testee as is humanly possible, the basic criteria are intrinsic the shoeing of every horse; i.e., hoof prep, forging/shaping, fitting, nailing, clinching, finishing.

Nads again? LOL, actually it's a straight forward enough matter to discuss the relative merits based on the information at hand...or you can center the discussion on nads.

The correlation is that you seem to be stuck on the issue of testicles. LOL


References to the lack of the aforementioned are a common metaphor for personal cowardice.

Beyond that, the primary flaw in your logic is that you only allow for three possibilities...1, take the test and pass. 2, take the test, fail and whine. 3, Lack the "testicular" fortitude to take the test. Clearly, there are many more possibilities.

LMAO! The primary flaw in your argument appears to rise from your inability to read for comprehension.

As to any "correlation", you wouldn't care to present your data, sampling methods and calculations would you?

One can obtain a fair sample simply by reading the exchanges concerning AFA testing on this forum. Most of the folks doing the whining and criticizing have either failed the AFA's tests or, like yourself, have never taken them.

It would be more interesting to see a correlation between certified/non-certified and earnings, client satisfaction or some other measureable that could be used as an indicator of success in the trade?

AFA certification is not an indicator of "success" in the trade, nor was it ever intended to be; instead, it's simply a means of measuring one's knowledge and motor skills against an arbitrary standard. Some folks jump at the chance, others fear what they might discover, and the majority don't give a damn - but those who don't give a damn seldom find it necessary to whine interminably about the AFA's tests. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 24 Mar 2009 15:46 #41

  • Gary_Miller
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
If you're talking about testing boat, it's damn sure afloat and going to get even more seaworthy if the AFA pulls its head out of its arse, does the right thing, and opens it up to the world instead of making wannabe testees join the club.
I was talking about the education boat.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
One's passing the AFA's tests is indicative of abilty, not resolve.
It only shows that one can shoe a horse to a standard at least once in their life. However, there are lots of farrier who do great work everyday and don't hold a certification.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Personally, I have the utmost contempt for anyone who knows how to shoe a horse and doesn't give every horse his best shot;
Its all about personal responsibility to ensure you do your best every time you pick up a horses hoof.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
on the other hand, the overwhelming majority of the bad work I've seen in my lifetime has been done by folks who really didn't know they were doing poor work.
I guess it would depend on who's standard you are using. On persons standard of poor work maybe anothers standard of good work. As well as one standard of good work may be anothers standard of poor work.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Does your vast experience vary?
My experience is there is alot more who care more about quantity instead of quality.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 24 Mar 2009 15:53 #42

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Silly me, I kinda figured all those pre-certification clinics were an education of sorts.
While there is some education the main purpose of a pre-certification clinic is to go over the certification test so one knows what is expected by the examinar.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 24 Mar 2009 16:35 #43

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Gary_Miller in gray

I was talking about the education boat.

In terms of numbers, it's probably safe to say that AFA and AFA chapter members comprise the greatest number of formal and informal farrier educators in the US.

It only shows that one can shoe a horse to a standard at least once in their life.

When the ability of a farrier is an unknown, once trumps the snot out of never.

However, there are lots of farrier who do great work everyday and don't hold a certification.


So? There are also a helluva lot of folks who can't shoe a horse on the best day they ever had - and some of 'em are making a living shoeing horses.

Its all about personal responsibility to ensure you do your best every time you pick up a horses hoof.

True, but resolve does not imply either knowledge or motor skills.

I guess it would depend on who's standard you are using. On persons standard of poor work maybe anothers standard of good work. As well as one standard of good work may be anothers standard of poor work.

Pragmatically, the only "standard" that counts has to do with a farrier's consistently striving to meet horses' needs, coupled with his ability to do so more often than not.

My experience is there is alot more who care more about quantity instead of quality.

LMAO! First you condemn AFA certification as not being indicative of a farrier's concern for quality work, then you condemn the majority of farriers as being concerned primarily with numbers and insensitive to horses' needs. I dunno where you're at, but it sure as hell doesn't work that way here in Texas! Hereabouts, whatever your creds, if you're working on any kind of good horses, you're either doing your dam'dest to meet your horses' needs or somebody else is gonna be shoeing your barn come next Monday morning. :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 24 Mar 2009 17:59 #44

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
In terms of numbers, it's probably safe to say that AFA and AFA chapter members comprise the greatest number of formal and informal farrier educators in the US.
I'd like to explore this aspect.

What makes one a 'farrier educator? How does one achieve this 'position'? Are there any 'checks and balances' on this system? How does one differentiate between a formal and an informal educator?

The AFA currently has somewhere in the range of 2100 members(farriers). The current membership numbers being given to new members is > 10,000. The membership of the AFA chapters consists of both AFA members and non-members. What percentage of either group would you estimate to be educators? What about those who are either no longer members of the AFA or an AFA affiliated chapter, or both?

Is a 'mentor' considered a farrier educator?

Considering that there is estimated to be more than 30,000 farriers in the United States, is it not possible/reasonable to say that there are probably more non-AFA farrier educators than there are AFA farrier educators? If not, why not?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


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RE:Improvement Clinics held for all organizations 24 Mar 2009 19:14 #45

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Mike Ferrara in gray

What does the specific discipline have to do with it?


Insularity, lack of general experience.

Pointing out that the AFA offers a test rather than an education isn't whining. It's a simple statement of fact.

Silly me, I kinda figured all those pre-certification clinics were an education of sorts.

Still, having an extensive background in test and measurement, I see plenty of grounds to question the objectivity of the evaluation
.

In reality, you have no experience specific to the testing and measuring of farrier skills.

Your claim that it's objective, doesn't make it so.

While any human evaluation interjects an element of subjectivity into the process, the AFA's standardized testing criteria and standardized evaluation criteria are indicative of an overall commitment to making the testing process as objective as humanly possible. In this country, the AFA's tests are unique in this respect.

To offer just one more correction the test doesn't verify the ability to meet "standardized criteria" as in any and all standardized criteria.


True, the AFA's tests don't evaluate one's ability to shoe any particular set of horses (e.g., foot wavers, reiners, or flat racers); however, the AFA's tests do evaluate a testee's ability to shoe a horse according to published, standardized, criteria, some form of which is common to the shoeing of every horse.

Assuming the evaluation is a capable process (an R&R study would carry some weight here) it verifies the ability to meet a single set of criteria.

While the AFA's testing criteria are arbitrary and inflexible in order to insure as objective an evaluation of the testee as is humanly possible, the basic criteria are intrinsic the shoeing of every horse; i.e., hoof prep, forging/shaping, fitting, nailing, clinching, finishing.

Nads again? LOL, actually it's a straight forward enough matter to discuss the relative merits based on the information at hand...or you can center the discussion on nads.

The correlation is that you seem to be stuck on the issue of testicles. LOL


References to the lack of the aforementioned are a common metaphor for personal cowardice.

Beyond that, the primary flaw in your logic is that you only allow for three possibilities...1, take the test and pass. 2, take the test, fail and whine. 3, Lack the "testicular" fortitude to take the test. Clearly, there are many more possibilities.

LMAO! The primary flaw in your argument appears to rise from your inability to read for comprehension.

As to any "correlation", you wouldn't care to present your data, sampling methods and calculations would you?

One can obtain a fair sample simply by reading the exchanges concerning AFA testing on this forum. Most of the folks doing the whining and criticizing have either failed the AFA's tests or, like yourself, have never taken them.

It would be more interesting to see a correlation between certified/non-certified and earnings, client satisfaction or some other measureable that could be used as an indicator of success in the trade?

AFA certification is not an indicator of "success" in the trade, nor was it ever intended to be; instead, it's simply a means of measuring one's knowledge and motor skills against an arbitrary standard. Some folks jump at the chance, others fear what they might discover, and the majority don't give a damn - but those who don't give a damn seldom find it necessary to whine interminably about the AFA's tests. :)

Tom is right about the AFA's test to evaluate certain standards for shoeing every horse against an arbitrary standard. Unfortunately, most don't give a damn, and they fear of being discovered that they aren't that good a farrier. They don't want anyone scurtinizing their work; even if means that they can improve on it. It's the ..."well this is the way we have always have done it'.
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