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TOPIC: Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY?

RE:Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY? 04 Feb 2009 19:20 #46

  • IRNWKR_2
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Gary_Miller wrote:
The path to certification does not provide an education
And how do you know this.

Gary_Miller wrote:
The practice along the path to certification is only one of perfecting (as Tom B pointed out) ones carpentry skills. (I love that analogy)
You would.


If you dont like the water thats fine, but dont p!ss in the cantine so no one else can drink it.
Jason Gilliland
"whether you think you can or think you caint your usually right" Henry Ford

"Im not as good as I once was, but Im just as good once as I ever was" My Grandad

"a wink is as good as a nod, to a blind mule" Barney Fyffe
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RE:Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY? 04 Feb 2009 19:21 #47

  • Martin Kenny
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Reply to Tom Stovall continued


MK…Anyhow, I then delved into deep research, at a cost of over a half million dollars in actual outlay and income loss, over about 10 years. What I learned was alarming to me. I learned that the methodology that the AFA and others was incorrect, and actually creating many of the things you all deal with on a daily basis. Those methodologies were actually creating a need for many of the high tech stuff many of you find in your rigs today. (Sole packing stuff, hoof rebuilding stuff, special shoes, etc...)
TS… Hot damn! Another epiphany in which somebody thinks they've found a piece of Farriery's One True Cross…..

MK…You just made the point I was making above. When someone comes forth with new ideas, they area always shot down, before the others even have a chance to learn about them and then try them out before forming an opinion. Kind of unproductive, I would say.

MK…I am going out on a limb here, but the fact is, the Bare Foot crowd, actually had a point.
TS…No they don't. The BUA is FOS. Nobody ever pulled the shoes off a horse that needed shoes to do whatever it does as best it can and improved that horse's performance…
MK…I totally agree, and that is why I don’t advocate bare foot practices, but that is not what I said. I simply said they had a point.

MK…The way I was (and many of you are) shoeing horses is destroying feet. Please understand that I stick up for you every time I am brought into a case. I tell each new client. "The problem is not that this farrier has done it wrong, the problem is that this farrier has done it exactly like he was taught to do it. The problem is that the he has been following is incorrect!
TS… Balderdash! Your self-aggrandizing rhetoric aside, please be kind enough to cite chapter and verse: be specific…

MK….I see feet every day, that are flared, chipped, contorted, etc… when they are due to be reset. You may not see that in Texas, but it is rampant on the east coast, oh yes, I see it in California too.

MK…You can prove this to yourself... simply look at authors of old shoeing books, (Lugwitz, Holmes, etc.) and you will see, that they were dealing with the same issues of today. (think white line is new, It used to be called "loose wall disease" Look at how often Seedy Toe is written about back then too. They dealt with flares and crumbling walls every day just like you do today!)
TS… No surprises here: Folks have been breeding horses for performance, not feet, since the Hittites were racing chariots.
MK…So if we still have the same problems (which are not an issue to me any more), and we are shoeing like they did back then (which I do not) then something is terribly wrong.
TS… With all due respect, the problems most farriers have are associated with husbandry and/or performance and are primarily exacerbated by breeders who are breeding for better performance, not better feet. DNA and husbandry can be a female dog to overcome.

MK…(response to 2 former questions and answers above) That is one place where you actually agree with the Bare Foot Crowd (and you said you did not agree with them. LOL). They use the same rhetoric for feet that are falling apart. I guess since I have learned the errors of standard practices, my horses breeding, nutrition, and metabolisms have changed. It’s a miracle!
.

MK…I owe a debt to the Bare Foot crowd, as they helped to open my eyes and see that I needed to learn how to use shoes in a manner that helped the foot, instead of destroying it.
TS… Bully for you! Now that the bare foot crowd has been instrumental in your epiphany, please be kind enough to let the rest of us in on your secret.

MK…I intend on doing exactly that. I have had 3 consecutive articles on the desk of the AFJ for a year now, they have assured me that they are near publication and should be starting in the next issue. I have hard data being published to back up the main point (which is in the second article) of how nail locations have actually attributed to much of the dorsal hoof wall distortions we see every day. I am sure you will enjoy reading them.

MK…The point being made here is this.... The AFA had and has its good points, (I am still member #178) but the fact that it has never promoted honest research by its members, makes the AFA's true intrinsic value questionable.
In the midst of my heavy research days, I requested if there was any AFA money to assist in underwriting equipment. My request was never even answered. So I moved on and took care of 100% of the $$$ myself. At the same time, the AFA has funneled a relatively small amount of $$ to research done at the academia level. So it would seem to me that the relevance of research for the AFA is not directly with the farriers, but with academia.
TS….Why should the AFA underwrite your research? Or, mine? Or, anyone's?

MK…I never said they should do so, only that my request for funding was not even answered. Since you are not a member, you probably are not aware of this, but the AFA has a “research fund” that is funded by the membership at time of paying dues with a check off on their dues form. So if they are setting aside $$ for research, it was only natural that one who has checked that box for as long as it has been on there to think that he could receive information about the use of those funds when he asks.
If you feel shoeing horses is best served by how well you can work in the forge, you are missing the point!

It is how well you shoe a horse, so he performs at his best advantage, IN SPITE of his personal issues. Forge work is simply a tool that MAY be...
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RE:Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY? 04 Feb 2009 19:28 #48

  • IRNWKR_2
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Martin Kenny wrote:
I have hard data being published to back up the main point (which is in the second article) of how nail locations have actually attributed to much of the dorsal hoof wall distortions we see every day.


Speak for yourself. Not trying to be a smartAlek but thre are some excellent farriers on this site and Im sure there are even some in your area, that would be willing to lend a hand and help You work through this.
Jason Gilliland
"whether you think you can or think you caint your usually right" Henry Ford

"Im not as good as I once was, but Im just as good once as I ever was" My Grandad

"a wink is as good as a nod, to a blind mule" Barney Fyffe
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RE:Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY? 04 Feb 2009 19:56 #49

  • Martin Kenny
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HoustonFarrier wrote:
Well, I usually pull these out for barefooters who tell me I am destroying my horses feet. I've been shoeing/trimming this guy for 10 years.....he runs around like he's a yearling still......what exactly am I doing wrong ??:)



Steve

Hey Steve, they look great to me. I never said all shoeing begin done was bad, only that the AFA +++model+++ (for some reason it would not take that word -the m word- without the +++ Guess it is considered cussing, or something:confused:) was incorrect. Obviously your +++model+++ seems to be working well. I do have a question though. Have these feet been shod recently. I don't see any evidence of it. Perhaps, if you are wanting to make your point you would be better served to show photos of feet that are actually shod, and just before resetting, not after the fact. It just makes a better case when you are trying to make the point. ;)
I have attached an example of what I am talking about. I have shod this horse for a few years and took this before I reset him. :
Attachments:
If you feel shoeing horses is best served by how well you can work in the forge, you are missing the point!

It is how well you shoe a horse, so he performs at his best advantage, IN SPITE of his personal issues. Forge work is simply a tool that MAY be...
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RE:Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY? 04 Feb 2009 20:06 #50

  • Gary_Miller
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IRNWKR_2 wrote:
And how do you know this.
It quite simple if you think about it. In order to become proficient in any task there are some basic steps that is gone through. The steps have to be done in order. If any step is done out of order then perfection won't happen.

Step 1, EDUCATION: In this step you gain the knowledge needed to know how to accomplish the task. It is usually preformed in a class room and lab type setting. But can be learned from a book or other type of media.

Example: If you want to make a plan stamped shoe you must know what a plan stamped shoe is. Then you must know the steps involved in making the shoe. Then you usually have a demonstration on how the shoe is made. Then you have a go at making the shoe under the supervision of the instructor or by following the direction in the book or other media.

Step 2, PRACTICE: In this step you now take what you learned and accomplish the task over and over again until you can do the task. The goal here is to get the steps down so the tack can be accomplished. The focus is on technique and the steps to need to do the task correctly.

Step 3, PERFECTION: This is the step where you prefect what you have done in practice. You may try to find steps where you can do something faster or steps that make the process of accomplishing the task easier. You may also bring in someone who will watch what you do and give you pointers to help you improve you technique.

Step 4, SKILL MASTERED: In this step you have perfected the skill and now can accomplish the task with ease. This is the step you are at when you are ready to take the certification step.

One can easily see the only step where there is any education is step one. All the others are steps in perfecting what you have already learned.

IRNWKR_2 wrote:
You would.
If you know anything about carpentry you would to. And if you honestly looked at the AFA certification standards you would see what Tom B was talking about. Of course one must have an open mind.

IRNWKR_2 wrote:
If you don't like the water thats fine, but don't p!ss in the canteen so no one else can drink it.
I'm just stating what I have seen and experienced. If you want to drink the water no ones stopping you.
Gary Miller, PF

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"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY? 04 Feb 2009 20:07 #51

  • Martin Kenny
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I am attaching an example of one reason I personally question if the AFA is relevant to the farrier industry.
I was asked to fly to Florida to look at this horse last winter. He had been shod only 4 days prior to my seeing him, and had been off and on lame for months. The owner had spent over $3,000 trying to figure out what was creating the lameness issues, but with no concrete diagnosis. (stick with me here)
The photo on the left is what I saw when I got there. Now this horse was shod by a very well known CJF that is a very well known member of the AFA. He is promoted by the AFA by means of AFA Chapter groups putting together clinics for him to preside over. I recognized the reputation of the individual who had shod this horse and tried to cover for him, by saying that maybe he had not been given enough time shoeing this horse to get the results he desired. The owner then told me that the farrier that shod him last, had been doing him for over 2 years. End of my covering for him. So here is the thing... if this is an example of a recent shoeing done by a well known member of the AFA and a clinician that is promoted by the AFA, then how can I say that the AFA is relevant to the farrier profession?
The photo to the right was taken 4 months later, after resetting him. You tell me, which shoeing protocol is working here!
Attachments:
If you feel shoeing horses is best served by how well you can work in the forge, you are missing the point!

It is how well you shoe a horse, so he performs at his best advantage, IN SPITE of his personal issues. Forge work is simply a tool that MAY be...
The topic has been locked.

RE:Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY? 04 Feb 2009 21:40 #52

Martin Kenny wrote:
I am attaching an example of one reason I personally question if the AFA is relevant to the farrier industry.
I was asked to fly to Florida to look at this horse last winter. He had been shod only 4 days prior to my seeing him, and had been off and on lame for months. The owner had spent over $3,000 trying to figure out what was creating the lameness issues, but with no concrete diagnosis. (stick with me here)
The photo on the left is what I saw when I got there. Now this horse was shod by a very well known CJF that is a very well known member of the AFA. He is promoted by the AFA by means of AFA Chapter groups putting together clinics for him to preside over. I recognized the reputation of the individual who had shod this horse and tried to cover for him, by saying that maybe he had not been given enough time shoeing this horse to get the results he desired. The owner then told me that the farrier that shod him last, had been doing him for over 2 years. End of my covering for him. So here is the thing... if this is an example of a recent shoeing done by a well known member of the AFA and a clinician that is promoted by the AFA, then how can I say that the AFA is relevant to the farrier profession?
The photo to the right was taken 4 months later, after resetting him. You tell me, which shoeing protocol is working here!

Careful Martin never know when the on and off lameness might come back around and bite ya. In my opinion you did good to get that lateral distortion under control. Looks to me that this horse might have something going on near the higher joint. It is possible you removed some lateral leverage that could be aggravating an old ligament tear that has calcified or is starting to. However don't forget dealing with the onset of a lameness vs. what you would do after it heals or even why it happened in the first place can be very complex. Sometimes support is needed sometimes easing break over is needed, depends. Not a very good finish job in my opinion for a guy with your experience. How about pictures of your work before you pull the shoes. You only show the after????
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY? 04 Feb 2009 21:53 #53

  • Martin Kenny
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Careful Martin never know when the on and off lameness might come back around and bite ya. In my opinion you did good to get that lateral distortion under control. Looks to me that this horse might have something going on near the higher joint. It is possible you removed some lateral leverage that could be aggravating an old ligament tear that has calcified or is starting to. However don't forget dealing with the onset of a lameness vs. what you would do after it heals or even why it happened in the first place can be very complex. Sometimes support is needed sometimes easing break over is needed, depends. Not a very good finish job in my opinion for a guy with your experience. How about pictures of your work before you pull the shoes. You only show the after????

Phil, all good points, but this horse was on and off several times each month and we had him back in full work by the time the second photo was taken and after another 8 months is still doing fine. I am sure that if there was pathology involved, that with all the $$ with some of the top vets in this country looking at the tests that were done,that it should have been caught. Since there was no indication of such, I am only to assume that the leverage factors you spoke of were the primary cause. But that is just speculation on my part.
As for finish, I am not a big stickler on sanding and finishing. My clients have never complained about finish, and I feel the less I do to the outside of that foot, the happier I and the horse both are. Style, is a personal thing. Mine is not one to sell my skills with a block of sandpaper,
I usually take before photos, but did not have any on file that were clear enough to be of value, so they were deleted from my files. I figured for this purpose, the after would be a good comparison, as the originals were only 4 days post shoeing.;)
If you feel shoeing horses is best served by how well you can work in the forge, you are missing the point!

It is how well you shoe a horse, so he performs at his best advantage, IN SPITE of his personal issues. Forge work is simply a tool that MAY be...
The topic has been locked.

RE:Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY? 04 Feb 2009 22:55 #54

Martin Kenny wrote:
I am attaching an example of one reason I personally question if the AFA is relevant to the farrier industry.
I was asked to fly to Florida to look at this horse last winter. He had been shod only 4 days prior to my seeing him, and had been off and on lame for months. The owner had spent over $3,000 trying to figure out what was creating the lameness issues, but with no concrete diagnosis. (stick with me here)
The photo on the left is what I saw when I got there. Now this horse was shod by a very well known CJF that is a very well known member of the AFA. He is promoted by the AFA by means of AFA Chapter groups putting together clinics for him to preside over. I recognized the reputation of the individual who had shod this horse and tried to cover for him, by saying that maybe he had not been given enough time shoeing this horse to get the results he desired. The owner then told me that the farrier that shod him last, had been doing him for over 2 years. End of my covering for him. So here is the thing... if this is an example of a recent shoeing done by a well known member of the AFA and a clinician that is promoted by the AFA, then how can I say that the AFA is relevant to the farrier profession?
The photo to the right was taken 4 months later, after resetting him. You tell me, which shoeing protocol is working here!


Really....? This is what you bring to the table to make a point on the topic at hand about relevance of the AFA? A dorsal shot of before and afters on a horse that you say was done four days prior by a "well known AFA CJF"?
Come up to my place some time.... I have more pics than you could look at in a 24 hour period showing both good and bad examples of shoeing. Done by "reputable" and "not so reputable" farriers.

True or not.... what do you want? A medal? Most farriers who pay any attention at all to what they do on a day to day basis in the application of farriery see the same things you do. There will ALWAYS be disparity. AFA/certifications/qualifications/licensing/tenure or not.

If true, then your "point" only confirms what I have said all along.... Pride in workmanship, Ethics, continuing our own education and high personal standards are what make a Farrier.

Personally I believe attention to finish is important. At least clean up those rasp marks. It's interesting you didn't show laterals or a solar shot.

Do some guys get "good reputations" unjustly...? YEP. It works the same the other way too. It will ALWAYS be that way.

Dont make the AFA the bad guy in this situation... This is on the person that did the work you posted.

That is what's really RELEVANT.
Brian R. Purrington
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www.wellshodhorses.com
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RE:Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY? 04 Feb 2009 23:49 #55

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Brian Purrington wrote:
Really....? This is what you bring to the table to make a point on the topic at hand about relevance of the AFA? A dorsal shot of before and afters on a horse that you say was done four days prior by a "well known AFA CJF"?
Come up to my place some time.... I have more pics than you could look at in a 24 hour period showing both good and bad examples of shoeing. Done by "reputable" and "not so reputable" farriers.

True or not.... what do you want? A medal? Most farriers who pay any attention at all to what they do on a day to day basis in the application of farriery see the same things you do. There will ALWAYS be disparity. AFA/certifications/qualifications/licensing/tenure or not.

If true, then your "point" only confirms what I have said all along.... Pride in workmanship, Ethics and high personal standards are what make a Farrier.

Personally I believe attention to finish is important. At least clean up those rasp marks. It's interesting that you did not show laterals and a solar.

Do some guys get "good reputations" unjustly...? YEP. It works the same the other way too. It will ALWAYS be that way.

Dont make the AFA the bad guy in this situation... This is on the person that did the work you posted.

That is what's really RELEVANT.

Very well stated.

Mark Sullivan CF
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RE:Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY? 05 Feb 2009 01:14 #56

I actually agree with martin that poor hoof balance leads to issues including navicular and quarter cracks which the individual who caused them by the improper trim may then treat with special pads shoes and composite materials. Prevention is always the best medicine and I enjoy learning different ideas about balancing a foot properly so as to avoid such problems.

Martin, I went to the website (www.thehoofcenter.com) to get some more information on the SHP (symetrical hoofcare protocol) trim but most likely because I am on a macintosh I could download the PDF files but could not open them. One was an evaluation for horse owners and one was an article from the AFJ. Like I said I could not get the to open but I would enjoy reading them.

Would you mind sharing with us the details of the SHP trim so that we can learn from the $500,000 of research that was done and help the horses better.

Thanks! :)
George Spear
CNBBT, CNBF, CLS


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Don Vincenzo Giobbe
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RE:Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY? 05 Feb 2009 02:20 #57

Gary_Miller wrote:
Phil we have had this discussion before but apparently you missed it. The path to certification does not provide an education (except studying for the written) once your past the point of being taught to make a shoe. The practice along the path to certification is only one of perfecting (as Tom B pointed out) ones carpentry skills. (I love that analogy)
Gary ,You do not Know what education the path to certification provides, because you have not done it.
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RE:Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY? 05 Feb 2009 02:33 #58

Martin Kenny wrote:
I am attaching an example of one reason I personally question if the AFA is relevant to the farrier industry.
I was asked to fly to Florida to look at this horse last winter. He had been shod only 4 days prior to my seeing him, and had been off and on lame for months. The owner had spent over $3,000 trying to figure out what was creating the lameness issues, but with no concrete diagnosis. (stick with me here)
The photo on the left is what I saw when I got there. Now this horse was shod by a very well known CJF that is a very well known member of the AFA. He is promoted by the AFA by means of AFA Chapter groups putting together clinics for him to preside over. I recognized the reputation of the individual who had shod this horse and tried to cover for him, by saying that maybe he had not been given enough time shoeing this horse to get the results he desired. The owner then told me that the farrier that shod him last, had been doing him for over 2 years. End of my covering for him. So here is the thing... if this is an example of a recent shoeing done by a well known member of the AFA and a clinician that is promoted by the AFA, then how can I say that the AFA is relevant to the farrier profession?
The photo to the right was taken 4 months later, after resetting him. You tell me, which shoeing protocol is working here!
Martin, you give an example of two well,known, Highly respected, AFA, CJF's -one not so ok , one alot better, Is it the AFA's fault or the bad one, are there not any AFA CJF's out there that wouldn't have done as good or better job than you??
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RE:Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY? 05 Feb 2009 03:32 #59

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Dave Purves RJF wrote:
I see on these forums the dissapoinment of a "few". In other words, this site is supposed to be seen by thousands of people, owners and farriers alike, and in these threads you have the same 4 or 5 people complaining, and the same 4 or 5 people defending. 4 or 5 people out of the thousands that view these threads seems pretty insignificant to me.
Dave, active AFA membership numbers are dropping over time. When I joined 6 years ago there were more active members then there are now. Over 2500 new members have signed up since I joined in 2002. Yet there are less than that many active members in total right now.

There may only be a dozen people here discussion it, but more than 1 out of 2 members is deciding not to renew their membership over a period of several years. Is that significant to you?
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Is the AFA relevant to the FARRIER INDUSTRY? 05 Feb 2009 04:34 #60

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tbloomer wrote:
Dave, active AFA membership numbers are dropping over time. When I joined 6 years ago there were more active members then there are now. Over 2500 new members have signed up since I joined in 2002. Yet there are less than that many active members in total right now.

There may only be a dozen people here discussion it, but more than 1 out of 2 members is deciding not to renew their membership over a period of several years. Is that significant to you?

Here is some numbers as of 10/1/08
(These number are from the office managers report attached to the 8 OCT 08 EC minutes.)

Member Numbers

Associate 55
Honorary 4
Lifetime 107
Regular 2090
Student – paid 90
Student – non-paid 136
Sustaining 26
TOTAL 2508

Certified Farrier 921
Certified Tradesman Farrier 4
Certified Journeyman Farrier 511
Certified Journeyman Farrier, Therapeutic Endorsement 5
Gary Miller, PF

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