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TOPIC: Is the AFA still Relevant?

RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 13 Mar 2009 03:30 #376

  • ray steele
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IRNWKR_2 wrote:
I have okay ed the trip with the wife and I'm planning on you being the guide, but probably not in the next few weeks. I probably couldn't afford your fare but I'm good for a few rounds of Guinness. Dont warn Smitty were coming, Hope to catch him working.


Jason,

nice to know who runs the shop, and most shops, want to provide the little ladies email , then we can talk your doings with her? (joke)

I'll settle for the Guinness, jissus' I'm so easy!

To be straight up, I must warn him, not about you, but about ME !

Regards

Ray
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 13 Mar 2009 04:02 #377

ray steele wrote:
Phil,

I agree it depends, and one and or an org, may not please everyone ,it is the communication that is most important! When members/former members are dismissed as "unimportant" for any reason then the org. doing the dismissing looses , to me anyway credibility. Simply put, "your taking my money, but I'm not important enough to be listened to" ?

Phil,
Please respond to this.

regards

Ray Steele

From what I have seen the AFA is listening and I do not get the impression that the AFA considers complaints or ideas as unimportant. For example a year or two ago Mikel brought up an idea that the "No Foot No Horse News letter" is available electronically. I don't know if the idea was taken from here, however someone came up with the idea and it has been acted on. I'm not sure if promising total transparency is a wise move. How is that working out for Pres. Obama? He promised transparency and just signed a bill a couple of days ago behind closed doors. This guy is a great communicator and believes in transparency, however he justified his action to reporters by saying some decisions need to be acted on with urgency. :rolleyes:

There is only so much time in a day and so much money in the bank. Sometimes people have to get er done.

The few on here that have consistently complained about the AFA should move on. This does not mean the AFA considers them unimportant, it may mean they consider the AFA unimportant. Like others have pointed out the AFA is not the only source of education, however it is a good source and does not deserve to be hammered on by a few day in and day out.

I am getting a lot more out of it now that I have put more energy and time into it. Things that I never imagined and yes it has made me a better farrier. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 13 Mar 2009 04:28 #378

  • Clint Burrell
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As to the AFA not wanting it's dirty laundry aired in public,"If your neighbor says your laundry looks like s*it then you have two choices, Tell them to eat your dirty shorts or re-wash it!" If the AFA knows what's going on here, they have little need for a members only site except for those who want to complain in anonymity from the rest of the world.As a general rule,people may not like what they are hearing but they still heard it. An association can't cater to individual wants/needs/lusts and desires but to a group as a whole. All organizations could stand to be better, look at our government,but change comes w/ work and you probably won't know what you did till long after your dead. :)

Have a good one,
Clint Burrell
Clint Burrell

"You say your from collage,
but you don't seem to bright.
You just brought a swichblade
to a pistol fight"
Move On by Chris Knight
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 13 Mar 2009 10:13 #379

  • tbloomer
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Bill Lansing wrote:
I saw somewhere on here that someone wasn't happy with dick fanguys tranparency or something, and that the members only section of the website being taken down shows that he wasn't living up to his word. (something towards that effect anyway)

Nobody went to the members only section anyway did they? What's it matter if it's there or not if nobody uses it? It'd be nice to have a way to communicate with our representatives, but that forum certainly wasn't working.
If I was in Dick's position I would want to get rid of the members only forum BECAUSE the representatives were not using the forum. With 15 representatives available and only one or two of them responding occasionally, if Dick did not respond, then it might appear as though he was not keeping his promise of transpearancy.

In reality, Dick was the only AFA official that felt obligated to respond on a regular basis. Like I said, he took all the heat, doing his job and everybody elses job. Why should one man be obligated to speak for 15 representatives? Why should 15 representatives ignore those whom they represent and let somebody else do their jobs?

So, yea if I was Dick, I would have killed the members only section just so I had time to do other stuff that wasn't getting done by somebody else who should have been doing it.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 13 Mar 2009 11:12 #380

  • tbloomer
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Bill Lansing wrote:
Now you're measuring how deep the gouges are?
I'm asking you to score them according to the AFA scale. Specifically do they harm the horse?
You're the one who suggested the same standards apply to the guild and afa.
Please try reading for comprehension next time. I said that things that would surely FAIL you on an AFA test would also surely fail you on a Guild exam. On the AFA score sheets, a 3 or below is given to any item that will harm or has obvious potential to harm the horse. So you tell me how deep the rasp gouges need to be to harm the horse?
You mentioned nailing and finishing. Are all the nails of a good height? Or are a few of them not even as high as the clip? Does the finish work show any ability to control a rasp? Or are there gouges here there and everywhere? Did the frog suggest a sharp knife was used? Or was a dull knife used to hack away at it? You're the guild, it's your standard. Don't think you're going to compare yourself to the afa standard and not get called on it.
I don't think you are familiar with how AFA tests are scored and how much cosmetic variation can appear in the finished product and still get a total score of 70.
Pictures are used all over this website. I don't see anyone claiming foul when a picture is shown.
I didn't claim foul. I asked you to start a discussion where you would have the opportunity to explain your understanding of evaluating rasp marks and photography.
You were more than happy to compare the guild standard to the afa standard a few posts ago. Now you're just getting defensive.
Indeed I pointed out the similarities in regards to things that harm the horse which would cause automatic failure on both exams. I certainly don't feel defensive. Neither do I feel like you are familiar with the AFA scoreing system. You seem to think it's all about cosmetics and you have not yet picked anything out of the picture and assigned a score to it, which indicates that you aren't familiar with how AFA tests are scored.
If the work shown was at or above the guild standard, then you guys should be standing behind it. Not making excuses as to lighting and everything else. The guild does not have the same standard as the afa. If you think the work passes the guild field exam so be it.
I stand behind the Guild standard in regards to automatic failure being equal to AFA automatic failure. I have also personally passed the AFA Certified Farrier exam with work that I would be ashamed to show on this forum because it wasn't very pretty at all. However I got a passing score because in spite of the job being ugly, my total score was 71, and nothing I did harmed the horse. I have also attended at least 7 AFA certifications and assisted in some way at every one of them where I was not taking the tsst myself. Have you taken any AFA tests? Have you ever looked at an AFA certification score sheet? Appearently you think farriery is judged in the AFA based on cosmetics. While cosmetics is a factor in scoreing AFA tests, the weighting of the scores is based on functional and safe work. By pointing out cosmetic flaws in pictures, you have demonstrated a substantial lack of familiarity with how AFA exams are judged. It might help if you read the AFA Certification study guide, attended a few certifications, and watch closely how the testers and examiners fill out the score sheets.
Tom Bloomer
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302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 13 Mar 2009 12:33 #381

  • Rick Burten
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Mr. Lansing,

Have you ever pondered the question. "if the AFA standards are so much better, objective, sacrosanct, whatever, why it is that AFA examiners and testers use pencils not pens to score a candidate's work?

What do you think the outcome might be if:
1. All exams were required to be scored in PEN?
2. Whether in pen or pencil, no alterations to the score sheet were allowed
3. Whether in pen or pencil, any/all alteration(s) to the score sheet had to be accompanied by a written explanation by the examiner/tester ?
4. No replacement score sheets were allowed to be issued for any/all cadidate(s)?

As has already been pointed out, so long as a candidate averages sevens and acquires no threes or lower, that candidate will successfully complete the practical portion of the AFA exam(s).


Of what import might this information be with regard to this discussion?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 13 Mar 2009 18:21 #382

  • ray steele
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Phil Armitage wrote:
From what I have seen the AFA is listening and I do not get the impression that the AFA considers complaints or ideas as unimportant. For example a year or two ago Mikel brought up an idea that the "No Foot No Horse News letter" is available electronically. I don't know if the idea was taken from here, however someone came up with the idea and it has been acted on. I'm not sure if promising total transparency is a wise move. How is that working out for Pres. Obama? He promised transparency and just signed a bill a couple of days ago behind closed doors. This guy is a great communicator and believes in transparency, however he justified his action to reporters by saying some decisions need to be acted on with urgency. :rolleyes:

There is only so much time in a day and so much money in the bank. Sometimes people have to get er done.

The few on here that have consistently complained about the AFA should move on. This does not mean the AFA considers them unimportant, it may mean they consider the AFA unimportant. Like others have pointed out the AFA is not the only source of education, however it is a good source and does not deserve to be hammered on by a few day in and day out.

I am getting a lot more out of it now that I have put more energy and time into it. Things that I never imagined and yes it has made me a better farrier. :)

Phil,

Thanks for the example about "No Hoof No Horse", that may be the other part of the communication equation, listening. I 'm glad that your are getting more out of the relationship than before, but others are saying that they are not. I presume that a farrier org. would want to represent it's membership in total.

My post to Bill Lansing had mostly to do with his statement to the effect, that a handful of complainers don't amt to much in the scheme of things or words to that effect.

Regards

Ray Steele

ps,

Did those l/p pads work in the wet snow?
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 13 Mar 2009 19:24 #383

ray steele wrote:
Phil,

Thanks for the example about "No Hoof No Horse", that may be the other part of the communication equation, listening. I 'm glad that your are getting more out of the relationship than before, but others are saying that they are not. I presume that a farrier org. would want to represent it's membership in total.

My post to Bill Lansing had mostly to do with his statement to the effect, that a handful of complainers don't amt to much in the scheme of things or words to that effect.

Regards

Ray Steele

ps,

Did those l/p pads work in the wet snow?

Your welcome Ray

Bill Lansing in my opinion has done a great job stating his opinions respectfully and in a positive manner. He has also been very helpful, for example the advice he gave to Mikel to improve his forging skills and to Gary about communicating with the AFA. I suppose he could have ignored the whole discussion. The handful of complainers on this forum have demonstrated to me that they find entertainment in attacking the AFA. Yes attacking is a strong word and I do not use it lightly. Just about every time something good is said about the AFA the same guys come out and attack it. Frankly it is tiring and one reason I have not participated as much as I use to. Mike, Gary and Tom B. have gone on and on with negative remarks about the AFA. I assume Bill Lansing has also grown tired of their constant complaints.

For most of the winter the pads worked well. The wet snow packed in, but no different than the amount that packs in a snow rim pad. Your going to hate me, but I can get a lot of resets out of them. :D
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 13 Mar 2009 19:40 #384

tbloomer wrote:
I'm asking you to score them according to the AFA scale. Specifically do they harm the horse?

Tom your talking about prep and finish. A nice smooth finish seems to maintain a healthier hoof capsule over time. Would this mean that a rough finish, gouges and rasp marks compromise the quality of the hoof. I think it does, the only data I have is anecdotal by evaluating my own work over the years. Can this ultimately harm the horse? I suppose it can if the feet eventually fall apart. "No foot No horse". :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 13 Mar 2009 20:06 #385

  • George Geist
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Just about every time something good is said about the AFA the same guys come out and attack it. Frankly it is tiring and one reason I have not participated as much as I use to.
You mean thats all it took to get rid of You Phil????:confused:
Mike, Gary and Tom B. have gone on and on with negative remarks about the AFA. I assume Bill Lansing has also grown tired of their constant complaints.
They should rightfully be picking on you as their duty to proudly uphold the traditions of this website:p
Have a good day Phil:D
For another fun place to play........
www.horseshoersforum.invisionzone.com
Come over and say hello.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 14 Mar 2009 00:59 #386

tbloomer wrote:
If I was in Dick's position I would want to get rid of the members only forum BECAUSE the representatives were not using the forum. With 15 representatives available and only one or two of them responding occasionally, if Dick did not respond, then it might appear as though he was not keeping his promise of transpearancy.

In reality, Dick was the only AFA official that felt obligated to respond on a regular basis. Like I said, he took all the heat, doing his job and everybody elses job. Why should one man be obligated to speak for 15 representatives? Why should 15 representatives ignore those whom they represent and let somebody else do their jobs?

So, yea if I was Dick, I would have killed the members only section just so I had time to do other stuff that wasn't getting done by somebody else who should have been doing it.
A little pretintious??? Don't you think???
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 14 Mar 2009 02:07 #387

  • Rick Talbert
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I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but a couple recommendations I would make to the AFA would be. 1) Quit the No Hoof No Horse bulletin, it is useless and its pointless to spend that much money on a publication that has basically nothing in it. That money would be better spent towards some sort of television program. 2) They should give Danvers more control over the magazine, so we could all get a magazine in a timely manner. Danvers knows what he is doing and does a very good job if they would untie his hands and let him do it. 3) I found some of the speakers' presentations at the convention to be a little (yawn) basic and not suited well to the farrier. I will say I did enjoy Andy Parks and thought he was very good. 4) Rather than a discount on Sherwin Williams paint, and Jos. A. Bank clothiers, how bout a discount on tools or something we are actually gonna be purchasing? (I am a pro- AFA guy, and don't have too many complaints, but these are just a few things I'd do differently.)
Rick Talbert
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 14 Mar 2009 02:37 #388

Rick Talbert wrote:
I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but a couple recommendations I would make to the AFA would be. 1) Quit the No Hoof No Horse bulletin, it is useless and its pointless to spend that much money on a publication that has basically nothing in it. That money would be better spent towards some sort of television program. 2) They should give Danvers more control over the magazine, so we could all get a magazine in a timely manner. Danvers knows what he is doing and does a very good job if they would untie his hands and let him do it. 3) I found some of the speakers' presentations at the convention to be a little (yawn) basic and not suited well to the farrier. I will say I did enjoy Andy Parks and thought he was very good. 4) Rather than a discount on Sherwin Williams paint, and Jos. A. Bank clothiers, how bout a discount on tools or something we are actually gonna be purchasing? (I am a pro- AFA guy, and don't have too many complaints, but these are just a few things I'd do differently.)
That subject seems to be up in the air at this point, I hope that the E/C make the right choice as to what is best for the AFA, I for one will be calling the area Reps, and discussing it, that is all we can do. No matter what evolves , I will support the orginization. Call your area representatives and give them your feed-back, that's our communication-line to the AFA.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 14 Mar 2009 11:09 #389

  • tbloomer
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tbloomer
If I was in Dick's position I would want to get rid of the members only forum BECAUSE the representatives were not using the forum.

Jake Whitman
A little pretintious??? Don't you think???
Not just a little, Jake. It is very pretentious. You go further to illustrate the pretense.
Jake Whitman wrote:
. . . I hope that the E/C make the right choice as to what is best for the AFA. . .
I think it is not the job of the EC or any individual on the EC to make choices for the AFA. In a member organization, the elected representatives are supposed to act on behalf of those who elected them by making choices.

A lot of folks on this thread have expressed their hopes and beliefs that Dick Fanguy will "get 'er done." Which means that if he doesn't get 'er done, he becomes the next fall guy in the blame game.

A whole bunch of folks have formed a habit of thinking that the AFA President's job (and/or the Executive Committee) is to make choices for the organization. That thinking is based on a FALSE PRETENSE. Even some of the better critical thinkers on this forum are stuck in this mode of thinking.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 14 Mar 2009 11:28 #390

  • tbloomer
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Phil Armitage wrote:
Yes attacking is a strong word and I do not use it lightly. Just about every time something good is said about the AFA the same guys come out and attack it.
Mike, Gary and Tom B. have gone on and on with negative remarks about the AFA.
Phil, please feel free to quote something I have posted that attacks something good that was said about the AFA.

Let this be your reality check; I have invested more of myself in the AFA and gotten more out of the AFA than you ever have or ever will. You can take that check to the bank.
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
302-222-6404


Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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