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TOPIC: Is the AFA still Relevant?

RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 14:20 #346

  • Gary_Miller
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Bill Lansing wrote:
This sounds like the do it alone attitude. You call the president but don't commmunicate with your region rep?
Nope the president called me because of comments I made. The last phone call was from Andrew just about a month ago. After that phone call he sent me copies of minutes from last year. It was very educational.

Bill Lansing wrote:
Who do you thinks gonna go to battle for you in a board meeting?
Well it had better be the BOD reps. Of course if you don't know the issues because your reps are not getting the information out then you don't know what to comment on. I should not have to call my rep in order to know whats happening in my organization. There are better avanues than me calling them for information.

Bill Lansing wrote:
Of course the chapters have say. Chapters have numbers, numbers get behind the region rep and things can happen.
You must really be dreaming if you think the chapters are getting any more information than the general membership. I know because I'm the treasure for our chapter. We have seen one rep and that was at a certification held before the board was restructured. And we have heard from no one since then.

Bill Lansing wrote:
You calling the president doesn't seem like the best way to get things done.
Your right however, like I said the president called me.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 14:22 #347

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tbloomer wrote:
Please tell me from looking at the photo, how deep are the "gouges?"

Now you're measuring how deep the gouges are?
As an AFA examiner, would you score that as a 3 or lower and fail the candidate because anything with a score of 3 or lower harms the horse.

You're the one who suggested the same standards apply to the guild and afa. You mentioned nailing and finishing. Are all the nails of a good height? Or are a few of them not even as high as the clip? Does the finish work show any ability to control a rasp? Or are there gouges here there and everywhere? Did the frog suggest a sharp knife was used? Or was a dull knife used to hack away at it? You're the guild, it's your standard. Don't think you're going to compare yourself to the afa standard and not get called on it.
Objective enough for you?

Pictures are used all over this website. I don't see anyone claiming foul when a picture is shown. You were more than happy to compare the guild standard to the afa standard a few posts ago. Now you're just getting defensive. If the work shown was at or above the guild standard, then you guys should be standing behind it. Not making excuses as to lighting and everything else. The guild does not have the same standard as the afa. If you think the work passes the guild field exam so be it.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 14:29 #348

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tbloomer wrote:
Oh ok. So I am supposed to gather a bunch of people together and find out what they want, then take it to my representative. 'Nuther words, do their job for them.

No, actually if you have some ideas on how you want things to be you need to spread that idea around and get people behind you and then take your ideas to you region rep. If somethings not being done how you want it, maybe you need to take some initiative to get it done.
The difference between proactive management and reactive management is that proactive management asks questions and gathers consensus, while reactive management put grease on the wheel that squeeks the loudest . . . or removes the wheel, or denies that the wheel is squeeking.

These people were voted in. You can only blame yourself if somebody you wanted in didn't get in. If you're rep isn't being proactive, then maybe you should be.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 14:36 #349

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Gary_Miller wrote:

You must really be dreaming if you think the chapters are getting any more information than the general membership. I know because I'm the treasure for our chapter. We have seen one rep and that was at a certification held before the board was restructured. And we have heard from no one since then.

One day a month a group of farriers get together. That leaves you every other day in the month to contact your rep and gather info so you can have discussions at you chapter meetings. Then take the info back to your rep.

Maybe you need to contact the other chapters in your region so everyones talking to the region rep? If the members of each chapter and then the chapters all get together, come up with important issues, maybe the rep would be able to go to a bod meeting with some good info from his region.

It takes work on you part to make things happen. If you get the members and chapters together and things still don't happen. Come the next election, since all the members and chapters will already be communicating, you can vote in somebody who will represent you better.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 14:45 #350

  • Mike Ferrara
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Mike Ferrara in gray

What do you mean by "expense of the consumer's welfare"?

Little things like corporate business practices designed to maximize profit that have lead to lost lives, lost jobs, lost savings, lost retirement benefits, disregard of safety rules, exposure to disease, environmental contamination, etc.

On the Texas Gulf, the hiring of illegal aliens as contract labor to replace union labor is a common practice. Unfortunately, the practice has led to several refinery and chemical plant disasters as well as few Superfund sites in the midst of poor neighborhoods near the Houston Ship Channel. But hey, the stockholders were happy.

Without profit, no one has a job and there are no consumers. Capitalism with minimal government interference has worked extremely well.

Your grasp of economics appears to be contaminated by talk show radio's nonsense. In reality, laissez faire economics has never worked in any society, not once, not ever. If you have any doubts, take a look at Russia.

First off, you referred to outsourcing which simply means that the goods or services are being purchased. It says nothing about where they are purchased from.

Silly me, with reference to outsourcing, I could've sworn I mentioned Mexico, Guatemala, Viet Nam, and China. Did you miss that part?

What's wrong with a gap between the rich and poor?

Lack of a middle class.

What's wrong with doing business where it's most profitable?


Profit is the basis of capitalism, but Big Business has a rather poor record when it comes to such niceties as compliance with safety regulations and environmental considerations. To my personal knowledge, most especially in mining, oil/gas production, and refining.

I think one's perspective on right/wrong with a company's doing business where it's most profitable would depend mostly on whether one is a stockholder of a stateless multinational corporation or one of the millions who've lost their jobs here in the US because some multinational decided they could make more profit by merging, downsizing, using contract labor, or moving the entire operation to the Third World, while still enjoying the benefits of selling their product in the US market.

Personally, I own stock in some of those corporations and I've been one of those to lose my job. Companies merge, buy, sell, downsize and use contract labor as business stratagies change to increase efficiency and minimize cost. We have laws to protect the environment and worker safety. It's also illegal to hire illegal immigrants. In the mix some people lose jobs and some gain jobs.


Having personally been involved in moving several manufacturing facilities out of the country I can tell you that sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't. There is too much of it, IMO, for two reasons. Managers sometimes make poor decisions (usually covering their butt rather than protecting corporate profit). Believe it or not, moving manufacturing out of the country doesn't always save money. Secondly, too often American blue collar workers aren't competative. They want a lot of money but they don't seem willing to work for it.

No company or corporation owes you a job. If the company believes that they'll make money by employing you and the government doesn't tell them they must hire someone else first, you'll have a job. The burden is on you to make yourself marketable.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 15:23 #351

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Bill Lansing wrote:
These people were voted in.

If you're rep isn't being proactive, then maybe you should be.
If my rep does not want to do the job he volunteered and was elected to do. Then he needs to step down and allow someone who will do the job to step up.

Once again, I should not have to contact my rep to find out whats going on. There are better ways to get the information out to everyone, without everyone calling their rep. What is it you don't get about this concept.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 15:30 #352

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Bill Lansing wrote:
One day a month a group of farriers get together. That leaves you every other day in the month to contact your rep and gather info so you can have discussions at you chapter meetings. Then take the info back to your rep.

Maybe you need to contact the other chapters in your region so everyones talking to the region rep? If the members of each chapter and then the chapters all get together, come up with important issues, maybe the rep would be able to go to a bod meeting with some good info from his region.

It takes work on you part to make things happen. If you get the members and chapters together and things still don't happen. Come the next election, since all the members and chapters will already be communicating, you can vote in somebody who will represent you better.
And all this would be better than a members only section of the AFA web site. Where members can review meetings agendas and minutes then go to a form like this and ask questions or post comments which all members could see and also give their input. And a place where BOD reps could go and get comments from members also.

It sounds a whole lot better than everyone making a phone calls or sending an E-mails where a conversation that should not and does not need to be privite becomes privite.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 16:38 #353

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Mike Ferrara in gray

Personally, I own stock in some of those corporations and I've been one of those to lose my job. Companies merge, buy, sell, downsize and use contract labor as business stratagies change to increase efficiency and minimize cost.


Throughout the Sunbelt, companies - especially those that require unskilled/semi-skilled labor - routinely break and/or circumvent immigration and labor laws in the hiring of their employees in order to fatten their bottom line, while putting American citizens out of work. The practice is commonplace in the agriculture, restaurant, hotel, refining/chemical, construction, nursery/landscape, and food processing industries because existing laws are not enforced as a matter of government policy.

We have laws to protect the environment and worker safety.

Laws without enforcement don't do a helluva lot to protect either the environment or the worker. The Texas Gulf plays host to quite a few environmental disasters called Superfund sites. These Superfund sites, and many smaller contaminated sites, are the result of businesses making a profit for their stockholders at the expense of the environment by routinely flaunting environmental laws, then either going out of business or simply moved their operations to another country instead of cleaning up their mess. The infamous Formosa Plastics underwater Superfund site in LaVaca Bay is exemplary of this corporate strategy. But hey, the stockholders made a lot of money.

It's also illegal to hire illegal immigrants.

LMAO! When was the last time a CEO - or even a jobsite foreman - went to jail for hiring a wetback? There are an estimated 300,000 illegal aliens in Greater Houston alone and the politically correct folks in the municipal administration have declared Houston to be a "Sanctuary City" in order to pander to the Hispanic vote. Houston and Harris County cops are not allowed question anyone's citizenship and even those illegal aliens convicted of misdemeanors and jailed are not deported after serving their sentences.

Obviously, you haven't been in the Sunbelt lately. Do you think 38,000,000 illegal aliens have had a helluva impact on the job market?

In the mix some people lose jobs and some gain jobs.


In the mix, multinationals keep the table tilted in their favor, putting American citizens out of work.

Having personally been involved in moving several manufacturing facilities out of the country I can tell you that sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't. There is too much of it, IMO, for two reasons. Managers sometimes make poor decisions (usually covering their butt rather than protecting corporate profit). Believe it or not, moving manufacturing out of the country doesn't always save money. Secondly, too often American blue collar workers aren't competative. They want a lot of money but they don't seem willing to work for it.

Secondly, you appear to be saying the American worker is lazy, so that excuses corporate avarice.

No company or corporation owes you a job. If the company believes that they'll make money by employing you and the government doesn't tell them they must hire someone else first, you'll have a job. The burden is on you to make yourself marketable.

On the other hand, no company or corporation, national or multinational, has any intrinsic right to do business in this country without complying with our laws, particularly those pertaining to the hiring of illegal aliens. US unemployment right now is running about 8%. I don't know how many of America's unemployed would be working if we enforced our immigration laws, but I think we could find out in a hurry if being convicted of hiring an illegal alien carried mandatory jail time.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 16:42 #354

Tom,
on the illegal status of hiring workers.....I'll start another thread.
My friend wants me print it too...............Linda
________
Lamborghini v12
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 17:58 #355

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Gary_Miller wrote:
If my rep does not want to do the job he volunteered and was elected to do. Then he needs to step down and allow someone who will do the job to step up.

Once again, I should not have to contact my rep to find out whats going on. There are better ways to get the information out to everyone, without everyone calling their rep. What is it you don't get about this concept.

I get the concept. How's this concept working out for ya? Looks to me you're planning on sitting on this website *****ing about it and doing nothing with the handful of other guys on here.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 17:58 #356

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Mike Ferrara in gray

Personally, I own stock in some of those corporations and I've been one of those to lose my job. Companies merge, buy, sell, downsize and use contract labor as business stratagies change to increase efficiency and minimize cost.


Throughout the Sunbelt, companies - especially those that require unskilled/semi-skilled labor - routinely break and/or circumvent immigration and labor laws in the hiring of their employees in order to fatten their bottom line, while putting American citizens out of work. The practice is commonplace in the agriculture, restaurant, hotel, refining/chemical, construction, nursery/landscape, and food processing industries because existing laws are not enforced as a matter of government policy.

We have laws to protect the environment and worker safety.

Laws without enforcement don't do a helluva lot to protect either the environment or the worker. The Texas Gulf plays host to quite a few environmental disasters called Superfund sites. These Superfund sites, and many smaller contaminated sites, are the result of businesses making a profit for their stockholders at the expense of the environment by routinely flaunting environmental laws, then either going out of business or simply moved their operations to another country instead of cleaning up their mess. The infamous Formosa Plastics underwater Superfund site in LaVaca Bay is exemplary of this corporate strategy. But hey, the stockholders made a lot of money.

It's also illegal to hire illegal immigrants.

LMAO! When was the last time a CEO - or even a jobsite foreman - went to jail for hiring a wetback? There are an estimated 300,000 illegal aliens in Greater Houston alone and the politically correct folks in the municipal administration have declared Houston to be a "Sanctuary City" in order to pander to the Hispanic vote. Houston and Harris County cops are not allowed question anyone's citizenship and even those illegal aliens convicted of misdemeanors and jailed are not deported after serving their sentences.

Obviously, you haven't been in the Sunbelt lately. Do you think 38,000,000 illegal aliens have had a helluva impact on the job market?

Actually I have been down there quite a bit but some of the bigger cities up this way are declared "canctuary cities" also. I'm certainly not advocating breaking the law or failure to enforce the law. I think I'm with you on the immigration issue.


Having personally been involved in moving several manufacturing facilities out of the country I can tell you that sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't. There is too much of it, IMO, for two reasons. Managers sometimes make poor decisions (usually covering their butt rather than protecting corporate profit). Believe it or not, moving manufacturing out of the country doesn't always save money. Secondly, too often American blue collar workers aren't competative. They want a lot of money but they don't seem willing to work for it.

Secondly, you appear to be saying the American worker is lazy, so that excuses corporate avarice.

I'm not excusing anything but an adequate work force is one criteria to consider when choosing a location for a business. If the work force in one area is to expensive and/or not good enough, a company is likely to locate someplace else.

No company or corporation owes you a job. If the company believes that they'll make money by employing you and the government doesn't tell them they must hire someone else first, you'll have a job. The burden is on you to make yourself marketable.

On the other hand, no company or corporation, national or multinational, has any intrinsic right to do business in this country without complying with our laws, particularly those pertaining to the hiring of illegal aliens. US unemployment right now is running about 8%. I don't know how many of America's unemployed would be working if we enforced our immigration laws, but I think we could find out in a hurry if being convicted of hiring an illegal alien carried mandatory jail time.

I don't know how many more Americans would be working either but giving food, education, medical care, housing and jail space to illegals is costing us a fortune.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 23:14 #357

Bill Lansing wrote:
I get the concept. How's this concept working out for ya? Looks to me you're planning on sitting on this website *****ing about it and doing nothing with the handful of other guys on here.
Bill,

For a guy who is fresh out of the box you sure seem to have it figured out.

Almost every one of the people that have had something to say on this website about the AFA have stepped up to the plate at least once, some more than once, and have all worked to try to make things better. Some were successful, others were not.

The simple fact is that it is the AFA's and its elected representatives job to communicate with the AFA's membership. Communication, by definition, is a two way street. They speak, we listen. We speak, they listen. It is their job to create the opportunity for communication and to foster the interactive process.

The fact remains that everything that Gary has said is accurate and true. The AFA has eliminated to one place it had for private, member only, communications. The leadership of the AFA can eliminate this public exposition of its perceived short comings by reestablishing the private medium or they can tolerate these kinds of discussions in this uncensored environment. What they and you do not get to do is complain about the fact that there is a conversation going on.

BTW, why does it matter to you what we do you are not listed as an AFA member?
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

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"What is popular is not always right; what is right is not always popular." Unknown

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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 23:30 #358

Corporations in and of themselves do not owe anyone anything. The officers of corporations have a legally binding fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders of the corporation to preserve or enhance the value of their stock. Just like people, corporations are treated under the law as individuals, and as individuals they will act in ways that they believe are in their self interests. It is the government’s job to enact and enforce the laws that individuals and corporations operate under.

There is absolutely no legal difference between an individual choosing to break the law and a corporation choosing to break the law. NONE. There is usually a substantial difference in the scale and impact of the violation. But to tar and feather all corporations as evil simply because they are corporations would be just as wrong minded as tarring and feathering all people because they are people.

There are individuals and corporations that behave in legal, ethical, publicly responsible and environmentally sound was. They should be noticed, studied and held up as examples of good citizenship. They most certainly should not be lumped into the mix just because they exist.

Personally, I believe that we should actually complain about the entities that have failed and are failing, instead of assigning blame in ways that are not productive. Most often, the stockholder is failing to require good citizenship from their corporations, and the government is failing to enforce the laws that would reign in the avarice.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

Visit the Guild of Professional Farriers, Inc. Website

"What is popular is not always right; what is right is not always popular." Unknown

"In matters of style swim with the current; In matters of principle, stand like a...
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 23:40 #359

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Ronald E. Kramedjian wrote:
Bill,

For a guy who is fresh out of the box you sure seem to have it figured out.

Thank you
Almost every one of the people that have had something to say on this website about the AFA have stepped up to the plate at least once, some more than once, and have all worked to try to make things better. Some where successful, others were not.

and? Have you tried to make things work or did you try to show everyone that you think you know everything?
The simple fact is that it is the AFA's and its elected representatives job to communicate with the AFA's membership. Communication, by definition, is a two way street. The speak, we listen. We speak, they listen. It is their job to create the opportunity for communication and to foster the interactive process.

If it's not working maybe you should start a new strategy?
The fact remains that everything that Gary has said is accurate and true. The AFA has eliminated to one place it had for private, member only, communications. The leadership of the AFA can eliminate this public exposition of its perceived short comings by reestablishing the private medium or they can tolerate these kinds of discussions in this uncensored environment. What they and you do not get to do is complain about the fact that there is a conversation going on.

The only people that complain on here is a handful. Do you guys not realize that the handful of you really don't amount to much in the scheme of things?
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 13 Mar 2009 00:26 #360

Looks like the AFA is relevant to me. So relevant that one of the Guild members attempts to build up the Guild by talking about the AFA (Tom B.)

I think it is great that Mikel took the Guild test and passed. I also think it is great that Bill Lansing has given some constructive criticism. So far Bill has been respectful and detailed in his posts. Welcome to the forum Bill. :)
Phil Armitage, CF
AFA member 7480

"Anyone who proposes to do good must not expect people to roll stones out of his way, but must accept his lot calmly if they even roll a few more upon it." Albert Schweitzer
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