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TOPIC: Is the AFA still Relevant?

RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 03:09 #331

  • Mike Ferrara
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Mike Ferrara in gray


Both downsizing and outsourcing can be iether good or bad. Downsizing is usually done to improve efficiency (profit)

Increased profit at the expense of the consumer's welfare has not proven to be a good long-term strategy.

What do you mean by "expense of the consumer's welfare"? Without profit, no one has a job and there are no consumers. Capitalism with minimal government interference has worked extremely well.

and outsourcing is usually done to better focus on core businesses...)buy vs make). Somebody is still doing the making though.

Mexicans are making Fords, Guatemalans are making Jockey Shorts, Costa Ricans are making Wranglers, Vietnamese are making Nikes, and the Chinese are making damn near everything else. Multinationals are pocketing the profits and the gap between rich and poor widens every day. In short, declarative, sentences, please explain how this is good for America.

First off, you referred to outsourcing which simply means that the goods or services are being purchased. It says nothing about where they are purchased from.

What's wrong with a gap between the rich and poor?

What's wrong with doing business where it's most profitable?
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 03:21 #332

  • ray steele
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Mike Ferrara wrote:
Your logic is almost too flawed to sort out. Without profit, no one has a job and there are no consumers.

First off, you referred to outsourcing which simply means that the goods or services are being purchased. It says nothing about where they are purchased from.

What's wrong with a gap between the rich and poor?

What's wrong with doing business where it's most profitable?


Is the AFA relevant?

The AFAs relevance has spawned discussion concerning Vietnam , Nike, Mexico, Wranglers,Guetamala, Jockey China etc. .

Imagine if the org knew anything about shoein horses?

What's the title of this thread anyway?

Regards

Ray Steele
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 03:25 #333

  • beslagsmed
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Bill Lansing wrote:
I'd like to hear an afa and guild examiner give there comments.

For the afa exams, the shoes have to be finished. You shouldn't have off centered toe clips, punches too big to fit in your fullering, blown out material from your fuller, frog eyes, gulleys in the middle of your stock because it's not flat, inconsistent nail depths, large cold shuts, etc...

Beside the inconsistent nail depths none of this really matters. What it does suggest is if you had to fit a shoe tight, you would probably run into problems due to your lack of forging shoes to a finished product.

Bill with your eagle eye, you need to be a tester/examiner, are you one with the AFA or Guild? If not you need to join.

As far a fitting a shoe course or fine, that the beauty of making shoe. Why would I punch a shoe course if I need a fine fitting shoe - maybe you would.

Why don't you make the same shoes and post em. Not afraid to show my work!

And if you want to continue this conversation, it needs to be taken over to the Guild site. And when you do, please do a pic by pic evaluation, because I sure can't find any frog eyes.
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 04:04 #334

  • Gary_Miller
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Bill Lansing wrote:
So in other words, nobody really used the members only section.
You could say that.

Bill Lansing wrote:
Did you contact your region rep to see what was going on with the members site and downloadable stuff?
No I expect my regional rep to provide the information, by a letter or E-mail. After all communication was one of the reasons we went to the new board structure. Was it not.

Bill Lansing wrote:
Can you get the minutes from the afa office?
You can. However, I have more respect to the already over worked ladies in the office to request something that could easily be put out on the web site.

Bill Lansing wrote:
I didn't realize it was the Dick show.
Well until the BoD steps to the plate and starts making the though decisions. The EOC will make it for them.

Bill Lansing wrote:
Did you and your state chapter get involved to show you want these things?
Yep. I have made my desires known on this form as well as phone conversations with the past past president, the past president, and the current president.

As far as the chapter goes since the new BOD structure the chapter has no say in what happens. The only real reason for a local association to be an AFA Chapter is for the liability insurance.

The AFA BOD like the US congress need to step up and do the job that the public elected them to do.
Gary Miller, PF

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Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

"Discover what it is that makes you passionate then grab a firm...
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 04:12 #335

  • Gary_Miller
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beslagsmed wrote:
because I sure can't find any frog eyes.
Having seen Mikle shoes, up close, before he tested I can a sure you there were no frog eyes.
Gary Miller, PF

Ride hard, shoot straight, and always speak the truth.
Gunfighter Motto

"Our level of quality is how well our eye can see it." (Eric Russell, Oct 2008, Horseshoes.com)

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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 08:26 #336

  • tbloomer
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IRNWKR_2 wrote:
By what methodology?
As stated, the scientific method. Observation of clinical presentation, hypothesis, experiment, review. We are looking for mechanical and anatomical reasons and explanations in regards to the candidates development of a trimming and shoeing protocol. The Registration Committee is publishing a new RJF Exam guide to facilitate this process in a structured, organized, step by step format. When this is ready for public consumption, it will be published on the Guild web site.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 08:56 #337

  • tbloomer
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Bill Lansing wrote:
Are you entirely sure about all this? Pictures from the guild section would highly suggest otherwise. no?
Oh goodie! I just love scratch and sniff pictures. Don't you? If you want to have a discussion about the finish quality of various brands of rasps and how each would appear in dark and light colored feet at various moisture levels based on photography done with a cheap digital camera, using direct, high contrast lighting, please start another thread.

This thread is supposed to be discussing the relivance of the AFA. Seems like everything else is being discussed. Which is OK by me. But we ought to move the technical stuff to a different thread where we can really get down and dirty in our discussion of lighting, optics, exposure values, CCD image filtering and processing and color temperatures. I find it all very facenating.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 10:05 #338

  • tbloomer
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Bill Lansing wrote:
So in other words, nobody really used the members only section.
There was a brief period of time when the members only section was used by the members to have discussions with AFA leadership. Leadership didn't like being in the hot seat. The forum allowed members to directly question leadership. Leadership appeared to be uncomfortable with that situation.
Did you contact your region rep to see what was going on with the members site and downloadable stuff?
A new policy was implimented where instead of members being able to download minutes of meetings from the web site, they were required to contact their regional rep and formally request minutes of meetings. There are no minutes of a meeting where the BoD created this policy. Must have happened "on the fly.
Can you get the minutes from the afa office?
See above. Not aware of the current "policy."
I didn't realize it was the Dick show.
In the members only forum, it seemed to me that Dick took most of the heat. Methinks the rest of the leadership was hiding behind him hoping he could "calm the sea." Lack of forum participation by the rest of the leadership (in the members only forum) left Dick as the defacto spokesman for the leadership.
Did you and your state chapter get involved to show you want these things?
I had the impression that when the AFA restructured the BoD, that I was supposed to contact my representative directly rather than going through my chapter representative. I used the members only forum along with Gary and several other members.

Since the furum already existed, why should I need to let leadership know that I wanted something that already existed and I was already using? If I didn't want it, then I wouldn't use it. I do not know any AFA member that asked to NOT have a members only section. Do you?

Removing the members only section - a benefit already in hand and in use. I don't follow your logic that a member should get involved and show they want something that they are already involved in and using.

Do you accept the reason that it was taken away because it wasn't being used? Where is the logic in removing something that is being used based on lack of use?
Tom Bloomer
http://blackburnforge.com
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 10:50 #339

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beslagsmed wrote:
Bill with your eagle eye, you need to be a tester/examiner, are you one with the AFA or Guild? If not you need to join.

As far a fitting a shoe course or fine, that the beauty of making shoe. Why would I punch a shoe course if I need a fine fitting shoe - maybe you would.

Why don't you make the same shoes and post em. Not afraid to show my work!

And if you want to continue this conversation, it needs to be taken over to the Guild site. And when you do, please do a pic by pic evaluation, because I sure can't find any frog eyes.


tbloomer wrote:
Oh goodie! I just love scratch and sniff pictures. Don't you? If you want to have a discussion about the finish quality of various brands of rasps and how each would appear in dark and light colored feet at various moisture levels based on photography done with a cheap digital camera, using direct, high contrast lighting, please start another thread.

This thread is supposed to be discussing the relivance of the AFA. Seems like everything else is being discussed. Which is OK by me. But we ought to move the technical stuff to a different thread where we can really get down and dirty in our discussion of lighting, optics, exposure values, CCD image filtering and processing and color temperatures. I find it all very facenating.


Hey you guys brought up the comparison about the guild and afa standard. If you say there was some trick photography with the pics I guess I'll believe you. And I'm sure it's possible there's a rasp somewhere that gouges a foot like that.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 10:56 #340

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Gary_Miller wrote:

No I expect my regional rep to provide the information, by a letter or E-mail. After all communication was one of the reasons we went to the new board structure. Was it not.


Yep. I have made my desires known on this form as well as phone conversations with the past past president, the past president, and the current president.

As far as the chapter goes since the new BOD structure the chapter has no say in what happens. The only real reason for a local association to be an AFA Chapter is for the liability insurance.

This sounds like the do it alone attitude. You call the president but don't commmunicate with your region rep? Who do you thinks gonna go to battle for you in a board meeting? Of course the chapters have say. Chapters have numbers, numbers get behind the region rep and things can happen. You calling the president doesn't seem like the best way to get things done.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 11:07 #341

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tbloomer wrote:
Bill Lansing wrote:
There was a brief period of time when the members only section was used by the members to have discussions with AFA leadership. Leadership didn't like being in the hot seat. The forum allowed members to directly question leadership. Leadership appeared to be uncomfortable with that situation.

I'm not sure I'd like to get questioned by you guys all night every night either.
A new policy was implimented where instead of members being able to download minutes of meetings from the web site, they were required to contact their regional rep and formally request minutes of meetings. There are no minutes of a meeting where the BoD created this policy. Must have happened "on the fly.

So contact your region rep. while your at it tell him you'd like to see the minutes back on the website.
In the members only forum, it seemed to me that Dick took most of the heat. Methinks the rest of the leadership was hiding behind him hoping he could "calm the sea." Lack of forum participation by the rest of the leadership (in the members only forum) left Dick as the defacto spokesman for the leadership.

Maybe I'm wrong but wasn't it the same few people on there all the time? Kind of like here? Same few guys *****ing all the time?
I had the impression that when the AFA restructured the BoD, that I was supposed to contact my representative directly rather than going through my chapter representative. I used the members only forum along with Gary and several other members.

Ah yes, the good old do it alone method. When I mentioned state chapter, I meant get other people involved with the same idea and present it to your rep with numbers behind you.
Since the furum already existed, why should I need to let leadership know that I wanted something that already existed and I was already using? If I didn't want it, then I wouldn't use it. I do not know any AFA member that asked to NOT have a members only section. Do you?

they changed the website, if no one was using the members only section, maybe whoever built the website decided not to wasted there time with a members section?
Do you accept the reason that it was taken away because it wasn't being used? Where is the logic in removing something that is being used based on lack of use?

I have no idea why it was taken away. I didn't like it when it was there. The setup was horrible.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 11:23 #342

  • Mike Ferrara
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
If you really think government oversight and regulations have caused the problems with our economy, please explain your reasoning. If you like, please feel free to quote Rush or any other self-styled pundit, this forum has grown somewhat stogy of late and could use the laughter. :)

To answer this completely would take a book...or several but just a few points.

On the top of the list is huge tax burdens on industry and business.

Government tampering with interest rates helps to create things like the "housing bubble".

Government regulations that tell banks who to loan money to leaves them with stacks of worthless paper...well, I guess we're the ones who now own the worthless paper.

Government regulations that tell auto manufacturers what their product mix must be drives up the cost of cars (the ones people actually want).

Government regulations have and will drive up the cost of energy. I don't know if you've been paying attention but the current administration wants fuels like oil and coal to be more costly to use and intends to make it so.

Health care? Government marks and tracks are all over that too.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 12:15 #343

  • tbloomer
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Bill Lansing wrote:
And I'm sure it's possible there's a rasp somewhere that gouges a foot like that.
Please tell me from looking at the photo, how deep are the "gouges?" As an AFA examiner, would you score that as a 3 or lower and fail the candidate because anything with a score of 3 or lower harms the horse.

Objective enough for you?
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 12:27 #344

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Bill Lansing wrote:
Ah yes, the good old do it alone method. When I mentioned state chapter, I meant get other people involved with the same idea and present it to your rep with numbers behind you.
Oh ok. So I am supposed to gather a bunch of people together and find out what they want, then take it to my representative. 'Nuther words, do their job for them.

The difference between proactive management and reactive management is that proactive management asks questions and gathers consensus, while reactive management put grease on the wheel that squeeks the loudest . . . or removes the wheel, or denies that the wheel is squeeking.
Tom Bloomer
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Here's the deal. I'm trying to keep it simple.
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RE:Is the AFA still Relevant? 12 Mar 2009 14:17 #345

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Mike Ferrara in gray

What do you mean by "expense of the consumer's welfare"?

Little things like corporate business practices designed to maximize profit that have lead to lost lives, lost jobs, lost savings, lost retirement benefits, disregard of safety rules, exposure to disease, environmental contamination, etc.

On the Texas Gulf, the hiring of illegal aliens as contract labor to replace union labor is a common practice. Unfortunately, the practice has led to several refinery and chemical plant disasters as well as few Superfund sites in the midst of poor neighborhoods near the Houston Ship Channel. But hey, the stockholders were happy.

Without profit, no one has a job and there are no consumers. Capitalism with minimal government interference has worked extremely well.

Your grasp of economics appears to be contaminated by talk show radio's nonsense. In reality, laissez faire economics has never worked in any society, not once, not ever. If you have any doubts, take a look at Russia.

First off, you referred to outsourcing which simply means that the goods or services are being purchased. It says nothing about where they are purchased from.

Silly me, with reference to outsourcing, I could've sworn I mentioned Mexico, Guatemala, Viet Nam, and China. Did you miss that part?

What's wrong with a gap between the rich and poor?

Lack of a middle class.

What's wrong with doing business where it's most profitable?


Profit is the basis of capitalism, but Big Business has a rather poor record when it comes to such niceties as compliance with safety regulations and environmental considerations. To my personal knowledge, most especially in mining, oil/gas production, and refining.

I think one's perspective on right/wrong with a company's doing business where it's most profitable would depend mostly on whether one is a stockholder of a stateless multinational corporation or one of the millions who've lost their jobs here in the US because some multinational decided they could make more profit by merging, downsizing, using contract labor, or moving the entire operation to the Third World, while still enjoying the benefits of selling their product in the US market.
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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