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TOPIC: 'lest there be any doubt

RE:'lest there be any doubt 04 Nov 2008 15:06 #271

  • HoustonFarrier
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
I'm not arguing with "greedy, selfish, self centered people," I'm arguing with folks I respect who have ideas and concepts different than mine.

Thanks Tom..I agree with you 100%. Just because we see different things, doesn't make either one of us better than the other. For what it's worth...your stock just went up on my books:)

And Ron.....I do more for the TRUELY needy in the community (Special Needs Kids) than you know....or even BOTHERED to find out....thanks for that great vote of confidence.

Steve
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal. - Henry Ford (1863-1947)
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 04 Nov 2008 15:22 #272

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SharaNihan wrote:
So you're telling me that you're happy with the amount of and coverage of health insurance you have available to you?
No as a retired Vet, my plan does not cover vision where as while I was on active duty it did. If I want eye glasses I have to go to the VA and take what they have to offer. I choose not to do that, if you have ever seen the glasses offerd by the military you would know why. So I go puchase them myself. I also purchase safety glasses so I can write it off as a buisness expense.
My dental is also twice the cost it would be if I was working for a company that offered dental. But I pay for it just the same. If some one needs a root canial its worth the price.
SharaNihan wrote:
You find the healthcare industry efficiently managed?
No but it not because of the industry it because of all the government regulations placed on the industry thats the problem.
SharaNihan wrote:
A good value for the dollar?
For the most part yes. I do think its wrong that one who chooses to not have health insurance usually pays twice as much for their care. But thats because of government regulations and contract with the insurance companies not because of the health care providers.
SharaNihan wrote:
It upsets me to fund such an ill concieved industry and yet I don't feel I have any choice. Generally speaking if I don't like a product or don't like a company that makes a product, I choose to either go without or purchase something else. I'm cranky like that. Healthcare I have no choice.
You always have a choice. Your options may not be what you would like or perfer. But you always have a choice.
SharaNihan wrote:
It also upsets me when people can't seem to imagine the possiblities of why there could be people in our society not capable of going back to school to get a better education to get a better higher paying job. (Not that I couldn't.)
I guess that I would be one of those who would upset you. Because I can't imagine why anyone in our society would not be capable of going back to school. There is lots of programs out there to help one get an education, loans, grants, work study, even programs that pay it all though job service if you are no longer capable of working in your current occupation. There are even programs for those who may need some refresher or extra help through the three R's so they can move on through collage. And most university and colleges offer evening classes as well as out reach programs.
You just have to be willing to put in the time, and maybe pay alittle of your own money.
When I went back to school a few years ago there was so many programs I qualitied for that the money I recieved enabled me to put my wife through nursing school at the sametime.
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 04 Nov 2008 15:23 #273

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I think that at this point we pretty much know where everyone stands on this issue. I suggest we all get out there and vote. Regardless of what your views are, voting is the most important thing you need to do today.

So get out there, and as the original Mayor Daley used to say, "Vote early, and vote often."

Baron
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

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RE:'lest there be any doubt 04 Nov 2008 15:39 #274

  • Mike Ferrara
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Mike Ferrara in gray

The chain of "responsibility" that I would propose is pretty simple. The first one responsible/decision making power for the well being of an individual, is the individual, then the family, then the local community.

What if none of this utopian infrastructure exists? It's nonexistent for many folks, so what then?

You want a guaranty of well being? Sometimes things just don't work out.

As they say, charity begins at home and the more that's taken from me, the less I have to help at home or close to home.

Your argument presumes everyone's willingness to "help" at home, something not in evidence and often sorely lacking throughout society. For starters, the homeless don't have homes and are often invisible to a society that likes to pretend they don't exist, or need a helping hand, or need medical care, or could get a job if they really wanted to. In reality, they do exist, they do need a helping hand, they do need medical care and they can't always "get a job."

My argument doesn't presume any such willingness. It presumes the responsibility. If the government is going to force someone to do it, they should first look to those who really are responsible.

In reality there are lots of people and organizations providing lots of help. The more resources taken up by the federal government, the less there is avilable for people to direct on their own.

None of that even starts to address the homeless who just won't take advantage of the help that available and won't do anything to improve their own situation.

But...why do you only talk about housing and medical care? I need to replace my work truck and the roof on my house and can't afford to do either at the moment. Oh, my teeth are about worn out and I need another set too. Who's worried about me? ok, I have a home now but if I get stuck without a means to make a living, I might not have it for long.

What happened to that right to choose? The same folks that argue for the right to choose in one breath are trying to take away my right to choose in the next.

You have the right to choose whether or not to have an abortion; you don't have the right to choose whether or not someone else can have an abortion. You don't get to choose whether or not to pay your taxes, but you do have the right to vote for the scoundrels who make the laws - unfortunately, it's difficult to throw the rascals out when they're sitting on both sides of the aisle and in bed with multinationals that provide huge campaign contributions via PACs and similar subterfuges.

LOL, I get it, they want to be the one to decide who gets the right to choose, what they get to choose and when.

No one has interfered with your right to choose to abort your fetus, but - as badly as it appears to discombobulate you - you don't get to interfere with someone else's right to abort their fetus. If you feel the laws should be changed, lobby your congressrat, it's the American Way!

In this case, I'm not talking about the right to choose an abortion. I'm talking about wanting the right to choose how to best use my resources to take care of my own family.

Sounds like good old fashioned oppression to me.

Oy vey! Not even the rightest of the Right could justify such apples and oranges illogic!

Really? Once, I got behind paying my taxes. The federal government, WITHOUT NOTICE, completely emptied my bank accounts leaving me without even the money to put gas in the truck to get to work.

Had it not been for some lose change (literally...I mean the kind you find under the couch and washing machine) laying around the house, I could have been finshed right there! No expensive illness required...done, finished, the end...next stop the nearest comfortable looking bridge.

It all seemed fairly oppressive to me and there was no line of bleeding hearts looking to help me out either. These days a considerable portion of my financial planning is focused on protecting myself from the government...who is so touchingly concerned with "helping"...just a little sarcasm there.
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 04 Nov 2008 15:49 #275

  • Mike Ferrara
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Cyber Farrier wrote:
I think that at this point we pretty much know where everyone stands on this issue. I suggest we all get out there and vote. Regardless of what your views are, voting is the most important thing you need to do today.

So get out there, and as the original Mayor Daley used to say, "Vote early, and vote often."

Baron

I voted first thing this morning. However, from some of the reports I've already heard about polling places not even checking Id's, I'm concerned that my vote has been "stolen". You may have something when you say "vote early and often".
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 04 Nov 2008 16:36 #276

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Gary_MillerGary_Miller in gray, my old stuff in brown, stuff deleted

What if there are no jobs to be had?

The jobs are there you just have to look for them and be willing to do the work.

Nossir, the jobs aren't out there, here in Texas, we're in the midst of recession: construction is in the dumps, manufacturing is virtually non-existent, and the real estate market went south, but the bars are doing well.

Not everyone can have a $20 hr job.


If a job doen't exist, not everyone can have a job.

The hispanic community does seem to have any problems finding a job.


LMAO! You might want to check your facts: According to both LULAC and La Raza, unemployment in Texas' Hispanic community is more than twice the national average.

I see them all the time at fast food restrants, hotels, ect.. If they can find a job why can't everyone else.

Your question is logical fallacy because it presumes "they" have all found jobs. "They" haven't.

I know its beneth the average white american to work such so call demining type labor. But it a job. and its not overly simplistic.

Aside from being illogical, your statement is bigoted and prejudicial as it attempts to stereotype the "average White American" as being elitist and honest labor as being demeaning.

There's a difference between wishful thinking and reality. In reality, many homeless folks can't get any kind of a job.

This is true many homeless folks have mental problems where they can't function well in society. However, many homeless folk don't work because it more profitable to stand at the exit of walmart and get a hand out. And you don't have to pay taxes.

I'm constantly amazed at your efforts to justify your prejudice by stereotyping the homeless as an underclass.

No hospital is required by federal law to provide non-emergency treatment. Here in Texas, some state hospital districts provide ER non-emergency medical care for folks who can't pay, some don't.

What don't you understand about the term Emergency Room. Its there only for emergencies it not there so you can see a Doc after office hours unless its an emergency.

What don't you understand about the fact that hospital administrators determine ER policy?

Nossir, your protests to the contrary, folks without money or insurance are not getting the medical care they need. If you really think they are, ask any medical professional.

So no one ever guranteed anyone healthcare or health insurance. Beyound Emergency care. And thats the way it should be. People need to learn to be self reliant. They can not learn this if you give them everything they need.


Should be? According to whom? I believe a society that takes care of the least of its members is infinitely superior to any society that leaves the old folks of all ages out on the ice

In a perfect world, there would be no multinational insurance company or HMO standing between the patient and the doctor.

If the government takes over the health care there will still be insurance companies and HMO that dictate to you what you can and can't have.


National healthcare could easily exist as an adjunct to medical insurance for folks unable to afford insurance. Did you know that HMOs exist due to congressional mandate? The Law of Unintended Consequences bit America in the butt!

We could start by bringing our troops home from a war we started without provocation that's costing US taxpayers a little more than $340,000,000 a day and has damn near bankrupted this country. That little dab of chump change could buy a few bandaids.

What ever!!!!!!!


Your last sentence represents the most cogent and compelling part of your entire discourse. Kudos! :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 04 Nov 2008 16:50 #277

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Mike Ferrara in gray

I voted first thing this morning.

We have to drive into Giddings, about 20 miles, to vote. We generally go after lunch.

However, from some of the reports I've already heard about polling places not even checking Id's, I'm concerned that my vote has been "stolen".

Here in Texas, your voter registration card entitles you to vote. If you've registered to vote but don't have your card, the election officials check the precinct rolls for your name and require you to show your driver's license to prove your identity.

You may have something when you say "vote early and often".

If they're not checking voter registration or precinct rolls, somebody is going to take advantage of their laxity - but who? :)
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 04 Nov 2008 17:43 #278

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
What don't you understand about the fact that hospital administrators determine ER policy?
And so they should thats what they get paid to do make policy for thier hospital.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Should be?
Yes. Why should anyone be guarinteed any thing beyound emergency care.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
According to whom?
According to my opion.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
I believe a society that takes care of the least of its members is infinitely superior to any society that leaves the old folks of all ages out on the ice
And I bellieve that if we teach self reliance there will be no need for society to step in. Because people won't need societies help they will take care of thier own, young and old alike.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
National healthcare could easily exist as an adjunct to medical insurance for folks unable to afford insurance.
Why should my tax dollars go to anyones health care but my own? Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Did you know that HMOs exist due to congressional mandate?
Another example of why the Politicians should stay away from issues that are better left to commercial enterprizes and the people to decide.
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
The Law of Unintended Consequences bit America in the butt!
The Law of political intervention is more like it.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:'lest there be any doubt 04 Nov 2008 18:03 #279

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Gary_Miller wrote:
Why should my tax dollars go to anyones health care but my own? Another example of why the Politicians should stay away from issues that are better left commercial enterprizes and the people to decide.

All of this presumes that you either don't need your money or aren't smart enough to manage it on your own.
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 04 Nov 2008 18:15 #280

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And I bellieve that if we teach self reliance there will be no need for society to step in. Because people won't need societies help they will take care of thier own, young and old alike.

Horrors of horrors ... as soon as ALL my kids could reach the tops of the table they had to remove their OWN dishes to the counter. Then, standing on a little step stool they had to wash and rinse off themselves. As soon as they could reach the dials on the washer and dryer Mom no longer washed their clothes for them. They oranized their own schedules as to who could wash/dry when, etc. As soon as they were old enough not to burn their faces off at the stove they each took turns planning, making out a shopping list and preparing dinner for the family. As soon as they could handle an iron without dropping it on the dog and singing all its fur off its back they learned to iron their own clothes. They learned to sew a patch on their own jeans, hem their own skirts and do their own homework and make their OWN little wooden race cars for Boy Scouts. They all learned to dust and vacuum ... they learned, in essence, how to work and play as team members for the "good of the community (i.e. home and family). They learned to plant and water and harvest our gardens; take care of the animals; and share with the neighbor kids. We even had regular weekends where we all worked at the community garden to help raise and harvest foods to go into the food pantry in Boston. They learned that from being back-pack size on Daddy's back! They learned to earn their own money, open a bank account, buy bonds, keep a checkbook and balance their budget before they graduated from high school. They even learned (we homeschooled) how to get a mortgage and all about interest, taxes, etc by actually going to the bank and filling out the forms. (local bank ... very friendly and accomodating). They all even know how to change the oil in their own cars and inflate their tires to the proper pressure! Many of our friends did the same with their kids, too. All "our" kids are on their own and managing very well, thank you. The people we knew who did it all FOR their kids have suffered through adult children being in jail, rehab homes, etc. etc. or still supporting them at 40 years old!

Teach a man HOW to fish and you've given him skills to last his lifetime.
Do the fishing the man and you've taught him how to be a beggar.
:) -- Gwen Santagate
“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” -- Albert Einstein
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 04 Nov 2008 18:24 #281

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caballus wrote:
Horrors of horrors ... as soon as ALL my kids could reach the tops of the table they had to remove their OWN dishes to the counter. Then, standing on a little step stool they had to wash and rinse off themselves. As soon as they could reach the dials on the washer and dryer Mom no longer washed their clothes for them. They oranized their own schedules as to who could wash/dry when, etc. As soon as they were old enough not to burn their faces off at the stove they each took turns planning, making out a shopping list and preparing dinner for the family. As soon as they could handle an iron without dropping it on the dog and singing all its fur off its back they learned to iron their own clothes. They learned to sew a patch on their own jeans, hem their own skirts and do their own homework and make their OWN little wooden race cars for Boy Scouts. They all learned to dust and vacuum ... they learned, in essence, how to work and play as team members for the "good of the community (i.e. home and family). They learned to plant and water and harvest our gardens; take care of the animals; and share with the neighbor kids. We even had regular weekends where we all worked at the community garden to help raise and harvest foods to go into the food pantry in Boston. They learned that from being back-pack size on Daddy's back! They learned to earn their own money, open a bank account, buy bonds, keep a checkbook and balance their budget before they graduated from high school. They even learned (we homeschooled) how to get a mortgage and all about interest, taxes, etc by actually going to the bank and filling out the forms. (local bank ... very friendly and accomodating). They all even know how to change the oil in their own cars and inflate their tires to the proper pressure! Many of our friends did the same with their kids, too. All "our" kids are on their own and managing very well, thank you. The people we knew who did it all FOR their kids have suffered through adult children being in jail, rehab homes, etc. etc. or still supporting them at 40 years old!

Teach a man HOW to fish and you've given him skills to last his lifetime.
Do the fishing the man and you've taught him how to be a beggar.

You're not insinuating that parents be held responsible for parenting, are you?

ok, but if the parents just will not parent...which of course is their right?...then the rest of us will gladly deprive our own children to pitch in and pick up the slack right?...so the parents aren't inconvenienced?

Another problem here is that rather than going after the responsible party, the government and the bleeding hearts go after those who CAN pay and are easy pray.

They wouldn't be sucking me dry if we could take the dispute out of the court room (where I am at a real disadvantage) and move it out behind the barn.
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 04 Nov 2008 20:12 #282

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caballus wrote:
They learned........ make their OWN little wooden race cars for Boy Scouts.
Now Gwen. Having been an active Boy Scout Leader for over 25 yrs. I find this hard to believe. I have not met a Dad yet who could sit by and let their boy build their OWN Pine Wood Derby.:D:p
Nice try though.:eek:
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:'lest there be any doubt 04 Nov 2008 20:28 #283

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caballus wrote:
...they learned...

Aw geez...yer not gonna teach them all that barefoot cr.. er...stuff are ya ?? :p:D LOL (couldn't pass that one up :p)

Steve
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal. - Henry Ford (1863-1947)
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 04 Nov 2008 20:37 #284

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HoustonFarrier wrote:
Aw geez...yer not gonna teach them all that barefoot cr.. er...stuff are ya ?? :p:D LOL (couldn't pass that one up :p)

Steve
*LOL* ... well, actually, none of them are into the horse thing! Just me and the Hubby now.
:) -- Gwen Santagate
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 04 Nov 2008 20:48 #285

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Gary_Miller wrote:
Now Gwen. Having been an active Boy Scout Leader for over 25 yrs. I find this hard to believe. I have not met a Dad yet who could sit by and let their boy build their OWN Pine Wood Derby.:D:p
Nice try though.:eek:
Believe me, Gary ... our sons knew the "value" of my hubby's woodworking skills at the time and they wanted to do this all themselves! *hahahaha* We actually just found one of them packed away and both hubby and I said, "Aw, geez ... we really *should* have helped him, ya know!" *LOL* don't think in the end the wheels turned very well ...
:) -- Gwen Santagate
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