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TOPIC: 'lest there be any doubt

RE:'lest there be any doubt 02 Nov 2008 14:42 #211

  • Gary_Miller
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Gary_Miller in gray, my old stuff in brown, stuff deleted

Its been my experiance that those you consider poor are usually the ones who don't go out and work to get a job and expect everything to be given to them.

Apparently, your "experience" consists of parroting the bigotry, sterotyping, and scapegoating one hears on talk radio and other bastions of mindless prejudice.
No sir my experience is first hand experiance. I saw it while I was working at a "Head Start Program". I heard it while talking to relitives that I know are on welfare.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Gary_Miller in gray, my old stuff in brown, stuff deleted
They are usually satified with what welfare will give them and don't look for work because they would lose their welfare check.

If you keep telling yourself this sort of balony, you might actually start believing it - but it's simply not so. Rather than being typical of the behavior of welfare recipients, such stories are typical of the nonsense bigots use in an effort to justify their prejudice.
No sir my experience is first hand experiance. I saw it while I was working at a "Head Start Program". I heard it while talking to relitives that I know are on welfare.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Gary_Miller in gray, my old stuff in brown, stuff deleted
I have even know of family members having to move out when the turn 18 yrs old because thier expected to find a job and the amount of welfare check for the family will decrease.

If so, do you feel their behavior is typical? Or, are you using your allegations to fuel your prejudice?
Yes, it comes from first hand knowledge.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Gary_Miller in gray, my old stuff in brown, stuff deleted

Our porous borders have allowed the "free" hospitals in the border states to become overrun with illegal aliens - but hey, they're good for big business because they pluck the chickens, wash the dishes, and trim the trees for the multinationals that're calling the shots on both sides of the aisle.

I agree this is a big problem that needs to be address. Of course all we need if for those elected to enforce and uphold the laws currently in place to do thier job. Round them up and ship the back. If they come back put them in a work camp.

It would be impossible to round up every illegial alien and send them back where they came from - but it would be relatively easy to make it a felony to hire anyone without a valid social security number. Without work, there's no reason for illegal immigration.
Yes it would but we have to start some where. Why not start with the laws already on the books. And where it may not be a felony its still illegal to hire someone without a SSN.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Gary_Miller in gray, my old stuff in brown, stuff deleted

I despise anyone on the dole who won't work,


I don't believe you.

You wouldn't want to say that to my face.
Yes I would. Because your words speak volume of wanting to give tax payers money to those who are on the dole and won't work.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Gary_Miller in gray, my old stuff in brown, stuff deleted
If you did you would not be for the tax payer providing health insurance.

Evidently, logic is not your long suit.
I could be wrong but I thought earlier in this discussion you were for tax payer funded health care/insurance.

If I'm wrong please correct me.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Gary_Miller in gray, my old stuff in brown, stuff deleted
And you would not be for Mr. Obama and his redistribution of wealth policy.

LMAO! I understand that critical thinking and you are strangers, but whatever gave you the silly idea that I would vote for a canditate like Obama? Stop trying to pigeonhole folks and try to understand that some of us think for ourselves and don't march in lockstep with any political party.
Boy thats a relief. From the way you have been talking it sure sounded like you were for a socilistic form of government.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Gary_Miller in gray, my old stuff in brown, stuff deleted
There are lots of folks... who were put out of work or whose jobs were sent offshore because the government allowed corporations to merge and downsizing was introduced to avoid redundancy.

The government did not allow it they have no control over where a company goes to do thier buisness.

Nonsense: Business does business at the pleasure of the government.
In the good ole USA buisness does buisness at the pleasure of the people. When elected officials get involved and place heavy taxes and mandates on buisness then buisness has no choice but to go somewhere else if they want to stay productive.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Gary_Miller in gray, my old stuff in brown, stuff deleted
However the government (under Mr. Clinton) did cause this by laying heavey tax burdons and mandates on companies to the exstent that they could no longer operate in the USA and still turn a profit.

You might want to check your sources, Clinton (damned fool that he was) was a champion of NAFTA and no friend to either the working man or the consumer. You might also want to check on who controlled the Legislative Branch of government during Clinton's presidency.
Oh but I thought the blame went to which ever party controled the White House. Or is that only when the republicans are in the white house.

The fact is manufaacturing buisnesses have been leaving the country due to the tax laws and other mandates. And because of this we are no longer a independant nation, where we once produced everything we had. And I see this as a threat to our natioinal security.

You can't even buy a horse shoeing rasp made in america anymore.

No matter, I'll just place the blame on the congress and the american people who sent them there.

Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Gary_Miller in gray, my old stuff in brown, stuff deleted
I am a Christian and also my brothers keeper. However, I believe that being my brothers keeper is helping him to become self reliant so he can hold his head up high instead of his hand out.

Really? Would you support a workfare program in which every able-bodied recipiant of welfare would be required to provide community service?
I would. Because I have seen it work.
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:'lest there be any doubt 02 Nov 2008 15:08 #212

  • Mike Ferrara
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Gary Hill wrote:
If I remember correctly the Church is supposed to support the widows and the sick,

1 Timothy 5:3 "Honor widows who really are widows 4, But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show piety at home and to repay their parents; for this is good and acceptable before God.

5:11 But refuse the younger widows;for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry,...
5:13 And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they aught not. 14, Therefore I desire that the younger widoes marry, bear children, manage the house, give no oportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

5:8 but if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

Obviously, I skipped around some so read it for yourself to get it all.

all others are to "Reap what they sow". If they don't want to work they stand on the corners and drink, and to support the drink they steal . My sister in-law works with the state and has to give out the welfare. Women come in with 5 kids from 5 differant fathers who are no where to be found except the last one who is waiting for her to come home so he can buy steaks to sell for drugs and Ho's. It discusses her and I take offence to it also, anyone that works for a living should be offended also. JMO

As we read in the Bible and witness before our very eyes in day to day life, taking care of those who don't really need it OR where there are others who should be taking care of them only serves to encourage idleness and sin.
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 02 Nov 2008 15:15 #213

  • Gary Hill
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Thanks Mike.
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 02 Nov 2008 15:15 #214

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Would you support a workfare program in which every able-bodied recipiant of welfare would be required to provide community service?

Gary_Miller wrote:
I would. Because I have seen it work.

Rick Burten wrote:
I'd sure be inclined to. Especially if that program weeded out all the illegals and the law was changed such that any children of illegals, born on US soil, would be illegal too. And not privy to any of the social, medical, educational or other benefits accorded legal citizens of the United States.

Mike Ferrara wrote:
What would you have them do?

Show up to local city maintence shop and issue them a broom and have them clean up the streets. This would not displace the maintence shop it would actually create jobs because someone would have to organize and supervize the walfare work force. And the other workers in the maintence shop would be freed up to work on more important projects that need completed.

For those with small children who need care. I would have a welfare child care center. This center would be self supported by others welfare recipiants under the supervision of trained child care workers.

In the afternoon there would be manditory job hunting classes where training would be provided to help on know how to seek and find a job.

Once offered a job you would be required to take it. If you turned it down you would lose your elagability for welfare.

Mike Ferrara wrote:
Assuming one is healthy enough to work, there isn't anything stopping them. Some don't know how and some aren't willing to do what it takes...
Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Nonsense! How exactly does one go to work when there is no work to be had?
Nonsense! All one has to do is be willing to work for the pay offerd. I don't see any of the legals or illegals from south of the boarder findng it had to find work. Why is that?
Gary Miller, PF

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RE:'lest there be any doubt 02 Nov 2008 15:33 #215

  • Mike Ferrara
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Gary_Miller wrote:
Nonsense! All one has to do is be willing to work for the pay offerd. I don't see any of the legals or illegals from south of the boarder findng it had to find work. Why is that?

A post or two back, I mentioned that my wife got a job to help out through the winter. She's working in a gas station...one of those that has a deli and all that.

She walked in and told them that she'd work any days and any hours and they hired her on the spot. There's lots of unemployed around here. Why?

What makes all those other folks too good for those jobs?
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 02 Nov 2008 15:58 #216

  • Mike Ferrara
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More jobs, here's how people think

Some years back, before the Eaton plant in Winamac In moved to Mexico, I was out on the manufacturing floor looking into some problem. There were some ladies doing no work and lots of complaining.

I asked what was up and the went on to whine about how we in the office had it so good. I asked them whay they didn't just get a job in the office if they thought they would like it. They complained that they kept asking the company to train them for other jobs but the company wouldn't.

You should have seen the doe-in-the-headlights look I got when I explained that the company didn't train me for anything. I spent tens of thousands of dollars and years of working days and going to school nights to qualify for the job I wanted...and then I had to work day and night (way above what my job required) in order move up a step or two where the money was decent...nothing that they couldn't do if they were so inclined.

Well the plant moved to Mexico where there are people willing to work and glad to have the work. Most of those who lost their jobs are now working harder for less and they earned it!
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 02 Nov 2008 16:14 #217

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Don't fault the ideology, rather the lack of a culture with base values to root ethics and morals.

Andy Dana.
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 02 Nov 2008 17:12 #218

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Since the discussion is on the "work force" of the USA, listen to this audio just out/noted on drudgereport.com ... the direct link to the story is:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2008/11/02/hidden-audio-obama-tells-sf-chronicle-he-will-bankrupt-coal-industry

Obama will bankrupt the coal industry ... nice. :(
:) -- Gwen Santagate
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 02 Nov 2008 18:12 #219

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Mike Ferrara in gray, my old stuff in brown

Would you support a workfare program in which every able-bodied recipiant of welfare would be required to provide community service?

One more question. If they are willing and able to work, why aren't they already working?

Simply put, because their job probably no longer exists. Most likely because their company downsized when our gutless government allowed it to merge with another multinational, or perhaps their job was moved offshore in order to allow a multinational to make more profit. Remember Simmonds rasps?
Tom Stovall, CJF
"The only foolish question is the one left unasked."
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 02 Nov 2008 18:59 #220

  • Mike Ferrara
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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Mike Ferrara in gray, my old stuff in brown

Would you support a workfare program in which every able-bodied recipiant of welfare would be required to provide community service?

One more question. If they are willing and able to work, why aren't they already working?

Simply put, because their job probably no longer exists. Most likely because their company downsized when our gutless government allowed it to merge with another multinational, or perhaps their job was moved offshore in order to allow a multinational to make more profit. Remember Simmonds rasps?

I don't buy it. As I said, I've moved three plants out of the country and two of the three times, my job went with it or was eliminated. I am still working as are all those I worked with.

One of those plant was 4 miles from where I still live so I still see many of those who used to work there. Nobody ended up on the street. Some of the professionals, had to leave town to keep working but most of them (like me) were from out of town anyway.

In each of the three moves, it wasn't a matter of "more profit". It was a matter of profit or loss. All three were losing money...well one, as I said, was slightly in the black but had a huge net loss over the three years I was there.

Had the government not allowed the sales, aquisitions or downsizing that led to those moves, every single one of those many hundreds of people would have lost their job anyway...just more of them, probably much sooner and there would have been a lot of suffering stock holders.

It doesn't sound as though you really understand how much of this stuff works. All three of those companies Illinois tool Works, Eaton Corporation and Siemens are large corporations that have lots of devisions that do lots of different things. That diversification protects the corporate value (the stockholders) because businesses go in cycles. When one isn't doing so well, another is.

That diversification gives them the size (staying power) to enable them to hang onto and work with a devision that's losing money as long as they see future prospects. It also puts them in a position to purchase ailing companies and try to make a go of them. When they do, it often saves or even creates jobs.

Sometimes, a corporation decides to get out of a given business either because it isn't profitable or because it doesn't fit their long term stratagy. That was the case with the ITW plant. They sold the whole devision to Eaton...but a year after Eaton moved the plant I worked at, they sold the whole devision to Delphi. Our primary market was ford, GM and Chrysler and none of them have done well either. The Siemens Metering Devision (the last plant I moved) was also sold several times before they finally moved to Mexico.

In each of those three cases, the employees kept their jobs much longer than they would have had the devision not been owned by a large corporation with deep pockets. Also not everyone lost their job and the share holders certainly made out better.

Things change and businesses move. Today, nobody can plan on just getting a job and staying there until they retire. Todays worker, needs to be able to move too. We don't have the high paying non-skilled jobs we once had so if you want to make a decent buck, you need some skill. There is work though and getting the education or skill needed to get the job you want is your responsibility.

A lot of what I think you're blaming the government and corporations for is, in large part, just due to the way the world is changing...third world countries becoming industrialized, worldwide competition and so on. Niether the government or the corporations themselves have the power to change that.
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 02 Nov 2008 19:25 #221

  • Tom Stovall CJF
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Gary_Miller in gray, stuff deleted

No sir my experience is first hand experiance. I saw it while I was working at a "Head Start Program". I heard it while talking to relitives that I know are on welfare.

Your "first hand experience" does not justify your stereotyping of folks on the dole.

Yes it would but we have to start some where. Why not start with the laws already on the books. And where it may not be a felony its still illegal to hire someone without a SSN.

In South Texas, beginning with the Reagan Administration and including the Clinton Administration, the Executive Branch has an unbroken record of choosing not to enforce existing immigration laws.

Yes I would. [Call Stovall a liar] Because your words speak volume of wanting to give tax payers money to those who are on the dole and won't work.

Lots of folks have lost their jobs and on the welfare rolls through no fault of their own - they're willing to work, looking for work, but unable to find work, because there is no work to be had. There's a big difference between those individuals and folks who are on the dole and unwilling to work, whom I made reference to. The fact you don't understand the difference doesn't make me a liar and if you ever call me a liar to my face, make damn sure you're wearing old clothes because we're going to the ground.

I could be wrong but I thought earlier in this discussion you were for tax payer funded health care/insurance.

Of course taxpayers would fund a national healthcare system: Who else? Our lack of some form of national healthcare is a disgrace, as are the federal efforts to support high drug prices under the guise of "protecting" the citizenry. Is anyone so naive they think drugs made in the USA, shipped to Canada, then shipped back into the USA are somehow tainted?

I ain't voting for Obama


Boy thats a relief. From the way you have been talking it sure sounded like you were for a socilistic form of government.

The problem with bigotry is that it stifles critical thinking. My failure to march to the beat of a neo-conservative drummer does not imply socialistic tendencies, it means I think its fiscally irresponsible and certainly not in the short or long term best interests of the citizenry to allow multinational insurance companies to control the public's access to basic healthcare. Since every medical student attending a medical school in this country is highly subsidized by the taxpayer, it follows that some form of national service for doctors before allowing them to enter the private sector might not be a bad idea.

In the good ole USA buisness does buisness at the pleasure of the people. When elected officials get involved and place heavy taxes and mandates on buisness then buisness has no choice but to go somewhere else if they want to stay productive.

LMAO! Your concept of the way business works is most refreshing. Closer to home, was Simmonds losing money when Mustad took their rasps to Columbia? Or, was it a profitable branch of a company employing American workers that Mustad figured they could make more profitable by moving the operation offshore? If you really think the people control business, you might ask yourself how Mustad's move to Columbia benefited the American people, particularly those who lost their jobs when they went south. By the way, did Simmonds rasps get any cheaper? Did the quality improve? Would Mustad have moved a profitable operation if a tariff affecting rasps had been in place? Right now, multinationals, not the people, are calling the shots in congress, on both sides of the aisle.

Oh but I thought the blame went to which ever party controled the White House. Or is that only when the republicans are in the white house.

Last I heard, the Legislative Branch makes the laws and the Executive Branch enforces those laws - but when it comes to pandering to multinationals at the expense of the citizenry, there's not a nickel's worth of difference between the parties.
Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 02 Nov 2008 19:47 #222

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Tom Stovall, CJF wrote:
Lots of folks have lost their jobs and on the welfare rolls through no fault of their own - they're willing to work, looking for work, but unable to find work, because there is no work to be had. There's a big difference between those individuals and folks who are on the dole and unwilling to work, whom I made reference to. The fact you don't understand the difference doesn't make me a liar and if you ever call me a liar to my face, make damn sure you're wearing old clothes because we're going to the ground.

I wouldn't say that it's never happened any time or anyplace but I spent quite a few years right in the thick of this and it isn't what I saw.

I did see guys that lost their high paying jobs in the steel mills working for $8/hour because they didn't have the skills needed to get another job that payed what they had been making.

I've also known people that lost a job refuse to work because they wouldn't accept a job making much less.


BTW, even though I charge pretty well for the time I actually spend under a horse, when you consider everything...the time and expense of travel, the lack of benefits and the self employment tax, I currently make about 70% LESS than I did as an engineer.

To say that I have to live differently would be the understatement of the century but I still work and I still eat.
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 02 Nov 2008 20:17 #223

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Maybe someone esle can take a stab at it...I can't find any data that suugests that displaced workers make up a significant percentage of people on "welfare".

Lots of stuff says just what I've been saying...need skills, pay and benifits may be less and you have to be ready to move but I don't find anything that says they don't go back to work.

I also found some stuff that indicates that prior to 97 and "welfare reform" welfare did indeed encourage child bearing and discourage entry into the work force because welfare paid better than entry level jobs. Studies seem to validate those "stereotypes". I didn't find much info on what's been going on since 97 though.
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 02 Nov 2008 22:05 #224

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Mike Ferrara in gray, stuff deleted

Maybe someone esle can take a stab at it...I can't find any data that suugests that displaced workers make up a significant percentage of people on "welfare".

How does one get on the dole? Here in Texas, it ain't easy.

Lots of stuff says just what I've been saying...need skills, pay and benifits may be less and you have to be ready to move but I don't find anything that says they don't go back to work.


For much of the unskilled labor force, pay is in efectivo (cash) and benefits are non-existent. Illegal aliens comprise a large majority of the unskilled labor force - and any job that goes offshore or becomes redundant due to multinational mergers puts the citizenry who lost their jobs in competition with illegal aliens.

I also found some stuff that indicates that prior to 97 and "welfare reform" welfare did indeed encourage child bearing and discourage entry into the work force because welfare paid better than entry level jobs.

To my notion, any sort of dole that is not tied to some form of labor robs the recipient of his dignity and the taxpayer of its value.

Studies seem to validate those "stereotypes". I didn't find much info on what's been going on since 97 though.

Much of the sterotypes have to do with blacks in Northern urban areas, but here in Texas, the problems have to do with a finite number of jobs and a seemingly infinite number of illegal aliens. To say our social infrastructure (schools, hospitals, social services, jails, etc.) have been overwhelmed by illegal immigration would be a gross understatement. :(
Tom Stovall, CJF
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RE:'lest there be any doubt 02 Nov 2008 23:13 #225

  • Bill Adams
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caballus wrote:
Since the discussion is on the "work force" of the USA, listen to this audio just out/noted on drudgereport.com ... the direct link to the story is:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2008/11/02/hidden-audio-obama-tells-sf-chronicle-he-will-bankrupt-coal-industry

Obama will bankrupt the coal industry ... nice. :(

Another blateant example of racisim on your part Gwen. Just because someone says something dosen't mean it means that and you're just mean anyway.
How do you judge character? Who on these boards he would leave an Aunt to live in public housing in Boston? I can understand it may be a bit hard for some of us here, but what if you had a million dollar plus home in Chicago?

A rightous man regardeth the life of his beast. Proverbs 12:10
I don't give a damn for a man who can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain
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