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TOPIC: Should the Political Forum be removed?

Should the Political Forum be removed? 28 Jun 2008 23:21 #1

  • Cyber Farrier
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I'd like a little input. I originally created the Political Forum when Dave Ferguson was running for office. I thought it would be a good way for the AFA officers to reach people, discuss their platforms, issues, etc....

Well... the rest, as they say, is history. This forum has taken many twists and turns that I'd not expected, but I've always believed in letting people discuss most anything they desire, as long as it's done in a reasonable manner. Of course everyone has their own definition of "reasonable."

I've no desire to let this forum have a negative or deleterious effect on any of the farrier associations, or farriery as a whole. The goal has always been to encourage thorough airing and discussion of thoughts, ideas and issues. But not to have a negative effect on the people or institutions which make up and serve the profession, whether they be associations, affilated farriers or non-affilated farriers.

So I ask you for your input: Do you think that discussion of the types of issues dealt with in this forum has a negative effect on any associations, or on the farrier profession as a whole? Keep in mind that "the whole world" (metaphorically speaking) reads what goes on here. Is it healthy to discuss association politics here? Is sun light truly the best disinfectant, or would it be prudent to remove this forum and not discuss "certain" things.

Believe me, removing the Political Forum would be a blessing to me. Due to the latitude allowed in this one forum, it gives me more grief than all the others combined. But that isn't the issue. This forum is here for YOU, and I want to know if you want it to remain, and if so why, or be removed, and if so why. Logical, thought-out responses would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Baron
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

“No man's life, liberty, or property is safe...
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RE:Should the Political Forum be removed? 28 Jun 2008 23:53 #2

  • EDeSocio
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Baron, I think this is a godsend to all farrier organizations... Your site has brought all of us together... it has kept the AFA going while their website was down.. it allowed some to blow off steam and others to get messages through. It has brought the Guild to my awareness as well as a little enlightening to me that the NB people aren't devil worshipers...
So I vote to keep her!
"Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!"

Eric DeSocio CF
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RE:Should the Political Forum be removed? 29 Jun 2008 00:19 #3

  • Mark_Gough
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Cyber Farrier wrote:
I've no desire to let this forum have a negative or deleterious effect on any of the farrier associations, or farriery as a whole. The goal has always been to encourage thorough airing and discussion of thoughts, ideas and issues. But not to have a negative effect on the people or institutions which make up and serve the profession, whether they be associations, affilated farriers or non-affilated farriers.

Good evening Baron,

Your intent is clearly honorable and reasonable but presents an unresolveable conflict. One cannot allow and encourage independent thoughts, ideas and issues on a given topic without assumming the risk of disparaging views.
So I ask you for your input: Do you think that discussion of the types of issues dealt with in this forum has a negative effect on any associations, or on the farrier profession as a whole?

The answer depends upon the perception and views of the individual reader. You cannot permit free speech within the forum and simultaneously take personal responsibility for each speaker.

Our own government has spent some two hundred plus years struggling with this same dilemna.

Keep in mind that "the whole world" (metaphorically speaking) reads what goes on here. Is it healthy to discuss association politics here? Is sun light truly the best disinfectant, or would it be prudent to remove this forum and not discuss "certain" things.

I've never viewed the airing of dirty laundry to be a particularly pleasant endeavour, but would disdain the hushed whisperings that inevitabley replace the right to speak openly.
Believe me, removing the Political Forum would be a blessing to me. Due to the latitude allowed in this one forum, it gives me more grief than all the others combined. But that isn't the issue.

That is, in my view, a reasonable issue for you to consider. You generously charge no fee for the service you provide to those who avail themselves of the forums. You certainly have every right to balance your time and effort invested in any aspect of the forum against any return on investment.

In fact, one could easily argue that the management of one forum whose maintenance overhead exceeds that of all others is cause to consider the value of said forum and its continuance.

This forum is here for YOU, and I want to know if you want it to remain, and if so why, or be removed, and if so why. Logical, thought-out responses would be appreciated.

I cannot advise you in this matter, but rather, can only offer what value I have personally found in the political forum.

It was thru this forum that I began to gain an insight into the organizational structure of the AFA and the individuals, past and present, who represent that structure.

It was here that I began to develop a small understanding of the people that serve in voluteer positions, a bit about their personalities and how they present themselves via a written, if not spoken, medium.

It was also here that I learned a bit about the views and hence, the personalities of other farriers in this industry outside the scope and content of daily work.

Should this forum remain or be removed? I'll leave that up to the man that has to invest himself in its care and feeding, asking nothing in return save that members might occassionally visit his advertisers.

Does the forum offer content, albeit sometimes abrasive, that has value to members? I've offered my own view on that question. I'll leave others to speak for themselves.

Whatever you decide, that decision likely won't diminish the value of horseshoes.com or the innumerable people who benefit from its existance.

Thanks Baron.

Mark Gough
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RE:Should the Political Forum be removed? 29 Jun 2008 00:19 #4

  • Rick Burten
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The loss of this forum would be sad. I vote to keep it.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:Should the Political Forum be removed? 29 Jun 2008 00:52 #5

Cyber Farrier wrote:
I've no desire to let this forum have a negative or deleterious effect on any of the farrier associations, or farriery as a whole. The goal has always been to encourage thorough airing and discussion of thoughts, ideas and issues. But not to have a negative effect on the people or institutions which make up and serve the profession, whether they be associations, affilated farriers or non-affilated farriers.
Baron,

First, thank you for asking us for our input.

I would have to say that it is my belief that topics of debate rarely have a serious potential to damage organizations or individuals, but the way the debate is handled almost always does have the power to damage. This is especially so when comments are made to hurt, discredit or libel an individual.

Cyber Farrier wrote:
Do you think that discussion of the types of issues dealt with in this forum has a negative effect on any associations, or on the Farrier profession as a whole?
As I said above, not in and of themselves. However that said, some of the discussions that have occurred have been damaging because of the personal content that has been layered into the discussion.

Cyber Farrier wrote:
Is it healthy to discuss association politics here? Is sun light truly the best disinfectant, or would it be prudent to remove this forum and not discuss "certain" things.
I would have to say yes. Especially when there are no other forums for that discussion to occur. Our constitution guaranteed us a free press to insure that we always had a voice against tyrants and usurpers. Having this arena for political debate and discourse serves an as invaluable safe haven for discussion that would otherwise not be tolerated and would be squashed out of existence before it even began elsewhere. Dictatorships can not survive debate.

People and organizations should behave in a way that shows that they value each and every person that they are in place to serve, even if they do not like that person. Otherwise they are not being true to their oaths or their purpose for existence. Independent and unfiltered debate and discussion of their actions, attitudes and policies all work to make them stronger. It is not those that have those debates that weaken or damage them, it is how they respond to those debates that will either strengthen or weaken them. Strong, positive, forward moving and looking individuals and organizations foster healthy debate and learn from it so that they can strengthen themselves. Weak, despotic and failing organizations try to stifle debate and destroy those that disagree.

IMO, the problem here has been the tone of the debate. Personal attacks damage everyone involved not just the person attacked. So I would encourage you to do a couple of things to clean up the process.

1. Require that anyone wanting to post in the political section request authorization to do so. Yes close the section to only authorized posters. Everyone can read, only authorized posters can post.
2. Any one requesting authorization to post not only must sign their full name, but they must provide documentation of their identity with their request and provide you with their agreement to abide by the rules.
3. Develop slightly more stringent guidelines for the tenor and tone of posts that will focus debate on content and idea, not people and personal attacks.
4. Increase your level of moderation of this section. Add another moderator if necessary.
5. With closer supervision and better guidelines in place be ruthless in the enforcement of the rules. Bad behavior in one section will tend to spill over into others.

All of that said I would ask that you consider keeping the Political section open, albeit much more focused on issues than people and personalities. If you do, then everyone is well served and those people have some incentive to do what they are doing better because they will know that if they don’t the failures will be the topic of discussion in this free and focused forum of debate and that they do not control this forum.
Ronald E. Kramedjian, RJF

Visit the Guild of Professional Farriers, Inc. Website

"What is popular is not always right; what is right is not always popular." Unknown

"In matters of style swim with the current; In matters of principle, stand like a...
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RE:Should the Political Forum be removed? 29 Jun 2008 01:45 #6

  • Red Amor
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Gday Sip

I have a lill forum on a site down under where as a guest resident Farrier I try to answer questions for folk on Farriery and general hoof care
I like you I try to be fair n just , every one gets a go and all I ask is that everyone is treated respectfully , Sometimes it gets very out of hand and I cut things out (nasties directed and swearing BUA folk posting add to BUA Sites ) its like your Farriers helping horse owners thread and like you end up copping a serve myself
If it isnt a burden to you or you think it denigrating you forums leave it there olmate
Mark Anthony Amor
If we want anymore excrement like that outta you we'll squeese ya head :eek:
Mind how ya go now ;)
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RE:Should the Political Forum be removed? 29 Jun 2008 07:38 #7

  • beslagsmed
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I think it is a good forum and should remain. With free speech also comes great responsibility upon the speaker!! I know you have put a lot of work into being the "big stick", but some one has to, and for this I thank you for your time and effort in bringing us this place.

My vot is for keeping it
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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RE:Should the Political Forum be removed? 29 Jun 2008 13:35 #8

  • vthorseshoe
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Baron,

Removing this site would in effect ease a lot of e-mail and phone calls the AFA most likely recieves on a daily basis.
I have heard numerous times how this site brings out false information, discusses things that should only be discussed by AFA members and on AFA forums.
The term "dirty Laundry in front" of the world has been used.
"No one else's business" has been used.
Ignore this site and the **** on it has been used.

Others have started their own blog to try to re-direct away from this site.
Others have refused to post on this site so as not to encourage or continue dialog on this site.

It is without a doubt this site is and has been a "thorn in the side" of a number of folks.

While trying to build the AFA, many non members and members have used this site as a sounding board and the world is at the footsteps listening.
Not presenting "the ideal picture" for potential or active members to read or make decisions from whether to join or stay active.

This forum was started "NOT to belittle the AFA, but to fill a spot THEY THEMSELVES NEGLECTED TO DO.
Baron gave the public a place to look, listen, and voice opinions with up to date info (correct infor or in-correct infor, hear say or rumors)
BUT ! You gave us all a place to "VOICE opinions"
You brought candidates out for us to meet and listen to.
You brought out problems and differences of opinions on MANY TOPICS.

If the AFA forum had been updated daily (going to a site that still had items over 2 years old was not updating) and if folks could have gotten as diverse a section of folks responding, then this wouldn't have been a thorn.

These are the resounding negative reponces to your "political Forum"


Quite the contrary, I believe this "Thorn has had a positive effect on getting the AFA site moving forward and up.
It has been the constant "in your face" responces from members and non-members who have voiced their disapointment with the AFA website thatr forced folks to open their eyes and redirect priorities to a new updated site for the AFA.
Lack of maintinence on the old AFA site
The lack of content and up-to-date info
The hard ship of getting logged in at times on the old site

I BELIEVE THAT IF THE AFA SITE is handled and presents an honest and OPEN forum then it will become its own place where members will want to go to discuss the items that should be discussed there.
I believe it is up to the AFA to "keep their site new, interesting, and informativly up dated with the information we need to hear for them to
see things ease up on this site".

My thought is to keep this forum open
Any form of competition is what keeps the market moving forward and prevents things from falling into a state of limbo.

I believe conciously or unconciously your site has been the "kick in the butt" needed by The AFA to make the many changes that have occured.
For all the "bad and negative that some only see, I personally feel it has been a positive thing and has been a catalyst for much of what we see happening within the AFA today.

It isn't, Barons "Horseshoe's.com" that is bad or a problem, it was the lack of "Attention on the AFA website" that WAS the problem.

This has now been worked on and with a new face and an easier format and people who are on the ball running it and working it. It has a chance to take on a "LIFE of its OWN" once again.

Kinda reminds me of the old west.
The gunfighter was brought in to clean up the streets.
Once this was accomplished the town turns on the gunfighter and wants him gone.
(The AFA office didn't request Barons site, but the members did from desperation. Now the powers to be would like to see this gunfighter gone.)
Quite honestly if the AFA had done their job in the beginning, Baron might have never started the "Political Forum"

my 2 cents worth ;)
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:Should the Political Forum be removed? 29 Jun 2008 14:27 #9

  • Gary Hill
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Very well said Bruce! Truth hurts.
"As I see it, winners get the money - while losers talk of "individual goals" and similar stuff." Tom Stovall
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RE:Should the Political Forum be removed? 29 Jun 2008 16:04 #10

  • unbridled
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YES it should be.
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RE:Should the Political Forum be removed? 29 Jun 2008 16:35 #11

  • vthorseshoe
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Ms. kane prior to being edited, you vehomently said yes and stated why.
I truly wish you hadn't been edited.

I was surprised at your manner of responce.
you are without a doubt an intelligent and professional business woman and your public ventures are educational and enjoying to watch. aka your DVD's, and TV ventures.

Frankly I can't see you tossing a match at a book burning gathering yet that is what I read into your origional post.

Cannot the AFA beilieve in its present oportunity with the new website and the folks running it to bring and draw members to discuss such items that truly should be just for members to ponder on ?
Do you truly believe that everyone want to discuss everything on this politiocal thread ?
It isn't Barons fault that it was the only real game in town,
It isn't the fault of many of us who post here, regardless of the few who go over the deep end and spew trash.

Whether this site stands or is disolved matters little.
It is the manner that the AFA represents itself that will be the catalyst of members going to the site with the same questions or opinions that have been seen here.

I for one spoke up to have you allowed on all the threads.
I know you to have much insight and much to offer.
I also know you would at times venture to possibly give insight into Andrews thoughts on topics.
You would have been an invaluable asset to this or any site.

I am just surpised to see your outburst of emotion . (origional post)

once again I am sorry to have seen it edited.

My 2 cents worth ;)
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:Should the Political Forum be removed? 29 Jun 2008 16:36 #12

  • Cyber Farrier
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unbridled wrote:
YES it should be.

"Logical, thought-out responses would be appreciated."

Your logical, thought-out response is...?

(Your post was edited before I had an opportunity to read it. Apparently it contained ad hominum stuff, and that was why it was edited. Please repost your reasoning without the "bad" stuff.)

Thanks

Baron
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

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RE:Should the Political Forum be removed? 29 Jun 2008 16:53 #13

  • unbridled
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Baron,

Why do you keep removing my posts? Here is what was posted:

YES it should be. Just like my posts are removed. It is a negative, nasty, subjective forum that makes farriers look like f*ols (the * = an o) to the horse-owning public. Sling your mud face-to-face or in private and stop presenting yourselves like idi*ts (the * = an o). Perception matters in the equine industry, if you'd step up to the plate and embrace your position as the foundation to the multi-billion dollar horse industry you'd all be so busy and making so much money that you wouldn't have time for the garbage you spew on this site for the whole world to see. And, oh by the way, don't blink or this post will be removed by the subjective administrators/moderators of horseshoes.com


Why did you remove it? It was logical and clearly addressed the topic at hand...
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RE:Should the Political Forum be removed? 29 Jun 2008 17:10 #14

  • EDeSocio
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Caught in between blinks..
Susan you have a valid point... getting out of control and negative bickering does nothing for our reputation....
it is bad enough that we try and hold a respective position in the support team of our four legged friends when our physical position makes it hard for the general non farrier public to look up to us.... Our physical position having these levels, ground, feet, horse manure, head, bum...

I do think however that communication is the key in anything performed between two or more people... So as a team, we are here trying to save the horses from the horse owners (9 times out of 10) and communication is vital.

For instance, I talk to myself all day long... and my team, Me, myself and I work together superbly...
"Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!"

Eric DeSocio CF
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RE:Should the Political Forum be removed? 29 Jun 2008 17:22 #15

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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unbridled wrote:
Baron,

Why do you keep removing my posts? Here is what was posted:

YES it should be. Just like my posts are removed. It is a negative, nasty, subjective forum that makes farriers look like f*ols (the * = an o) to the horse-owning public. Sling your mud face-to-face or in private and stop presenting yourselves like idi*ts (the * = an o). Perception matters in the equine industry, if you'd step up to the plate and embrace your position as the foundation to the multi-billion dollar horse industry you'd all be so busy and making so much money that you wouldn't have time for the garbage you spew on this site for the whole world to see. And, oh by the way, don't blink or this post will be removed by the subjective administrators/moderators of horseshoes.com


Why did you remove it? It was logical and clearly addressed the topic at hand...


What's really funny is that more people know more about Horseshoes.com than the AFA. Now tell me why that is if the AFA is such a great representation of the farrier industry?

We may be the foundation of the horse industry, but in most of that world were viewed as second class citizens, non thinking humans, and head below backside maroons. What is the AFA doing to change that? OOH OOH, I know, making a pretty web site. Now go make it functional, completely, and we can discuss things there and get some of this worked out.

Yes , here we say things and hang things out for the world to see, so what? They see we are human, but yet that we have the ability to think and reason and have opinions also. Maybe we won't get treated like second class citizens if they know we can actually think.

Your very gung ho for the AFA and I say that's your choice, but they still have a ways to go to represent the whole farrier industry and it ain't lookin to good right now. We need to get together instead of tearing each other apart (of which we are all doing, you and me included) but it has to start at the top since that seems to be the position of so much contention now days.

So, let's see what Andrew can come up with and do to get thing going in the right direction.
Ben Sturman
AFA CF #7558

Tough times never last, but tough people do!

Beware the lollipop of mediocrity, one lick and you will suck for ever!

Folks who think traditional farriery means perimeter fit don't know a heluva lot about shoeing. Tom Stovall,...
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