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TOPIC: Will the REAL AFA please stand up?

RE:Will the REAL AFA please stand up? 25 Jun 2008 22:52 #16

  • Martin Kenny
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EDeSocio wrote:
I know we are not a team based occupation.. I don't know the politics and organization enough to know whether the change should come from the EC or the BOD but it would be nice if change started in the membership. Support, patience and confidence in our leadership... Kinda like training a horse... tell it to go and you get refusals and bucks, ask it to go and results come like magic... Maybe we need a little belief in the system?

Eric, WONDERFULLY PUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks, Martin
If you feel shoeing horses is best served by how well you can work in the forge, you are missing the point!

It is how well you shoe a horse, so he performs at his best advantage, IN SPITE of his personal issues. Forge work is simply a tool that MAY be...
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RE:Will the REAL AFA please stand up? 26 Jun 2008 02:21 #17

anvilsteve wrote:
If volunteers don't like his decesions, they shouldn't take it personally and resign.
Mr. Kraus,

To my knowledge none of the volunteers that I personally know who have resigned did so because they did not agree with Mr. Elsbree's decisions. Rather they resigned for much more serious and well documented reasons. May I suggest that if you, and others, wish to retain your credibility in everyone’s eyes that you stop trying to spin things. The people in this forum know how to read and have read a lot on this topic.

I also find it a bit suspicious when you and others that do not normally participate suddenly show up waving the banner and claiming that every thing is just hunky dory when anyone starts talking about the AFA here on horseshoes and what they are talking about has some traction with the people that are reading and interaction with them.

I think thou doth protest to much.
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RE:Will the REAL AFA please stand up? 26 Jun 2008 03:22 #18

  • Gary_Miller
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Martin Kenny wrote:
By the way, no one has asked me....... but that is the true essence of LEADERSHIP! I waited for someone to ask what leadership meant to me, but it never happened, so I answered it myself!
You hit the nail solid right on the top. Good leaders don't tell people how to do thier job/task they tell them what the want done and let the worker figure out how to do it.

Martin Kenny wrote:
The AFA needs to begin to teach that we need to be mature enough to learn some very technical stuff that frankly our profession as a whole simply has no clue about, when it comes to the horse's foot.
Now thats heading in the right direction.

Martin Kenny wrote:
In my opinion, the AFA has had it's priorities wrong for a very long time. In my opinion and of many of those I speak with when I travel around this country shoeing, the AFA needs to stop placing the focus of our education on .........(I know this will make a lot of you mad, but as you have come to realize, I DON'T CARE!!!)....... competing and forging.
The competing has only served to make us more competitive in the market place. I voiced that in the BoD meeting in the 80's and about lost my head, but I still see it that way. Competing has made a mindset of I can do this better than you and that has shown up very large in these posts this week. Look at such lines as "so you thing you are better.... you call yourself a farrier and don't use a forge.... and on and on.
More in the right direction. I would include doing away with the competion at the convention and the AFT altogeather, both of these is a loss in the AFA budget. And the WBC has proven in their first year that they can do this a whole lot better. Why not let them have it.
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RE:Will the REAL AFA please stand up? 26 Jun 2008 23:52 #19

  • Martin Kenny
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Hope you all had a great day helping horses and keeping owners happy today.

I was in my shop, shoeing another farrier's personal horses today, and we were talking about things brought up on these threads lately. We got to talking about how to make it easier to allow the AFA members to be face to face with a candidate before making the decision on how to mark his/her ballot.

I think we came up with a GREAT PLAN! Currently the elections take place so the new offices can be announced at the convention. Why couldn't we change how we do that so the ballots are mailed out after the convention and counted say May 1st (as an example). Then members can go to the convention and meet with the nominees and then we can mail ballots in after having a great chance to get to know the individuals. Perhaps we could set time up at the convention for the candidates to be in a meeting room to answer questions from the members. I would say it would be best to have this forum early on in the convention so we can ask one on one questions later in the week, based on what we learned in the forum.This approach would give us some time to consider what we learned about the nominee from the forum that was set up at the convention, speaking to him/her, and even sitting down with other members to discuss the issues etc with other members during the convention.

Now to do this would require a change in the following from Article Four; section 3; line b. of the Bylaws, but now that isn't a task that should be too hard to do. This is what it now says, so it would have to be changed. Voting by the Regular and Lifetime Members will be done by written ballot, turned in to the Nominations and Elections Committee by 5 p.m. (local time) on the evening prior to the Annual General Membership Meeting.

Of course this would require some other changes in other places in the bylaws as well, but not a task that would be terribly difficult.

Like a Pastor I used to serve told our congregation at the first membership meeting he presided over....."I will not entertain any criticism of any thing that is presently happening....unless you have a suggestion on how to improve the issue in question." Our meetings had taken over 6 hours to conduct. After that was established, they took less than an hour and we accomplished more than we ever did before!!! So, not wanting to criticize without a solution, I am offering this as a possible solution to the problem.

So I am just throwing it out there because I had been asked how I felt it could be made easier to get to know the candidates a bit better before making the decision on how to vote. It is a good question and I feel this may be one answer to consider. Let me know what you think!

Martin Kenny
If you feel shoeing horses is best served by how well you can work in the forge, you are missing the point!

It is how well you shoe a horse, so he performs at his best advantage, IN SPITE of his personal issues. Forge work is simply a tool that MAY be...
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RE:Will the REAL AFA please stand up? 27 Jun 2008 00:53 #20

Martin,
You may want to consider members who can't or don't attend the convention in this plan. Regional "Town Hall" meetings are my first thought, but they would be expensive and time consuming for the candidates. How would you give all members access to the candidates?
Norman
Norman E. Foley CJF AFA #733
Make haste.... slowly.
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RE:Will the REAL AFA please stand up? 27 Jun 2008 01:17 #21

  • Martin Kenny
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Norman E. Foley wrote:
Martin,
You may want to consider members who can't or don't attend the convention in this plan. Regional "Town Hall" meetings are my first thought, but they would be expensive and time consuming for the candidates. How would you give all members access to the candidates?
Norman

Norman. That is certainly a concern, but this would hit a much larger number than we are now and if local organizations want to put up expenses then they could ship candidates around to do that.

One more thought we had. Since it was suggested to do away wit competition by Gary Miller, that may not be a bad idea either. Then we could use the $ we presently use on the Team to help finance better opportunities for the members to have face to face with not only nominees but with elected officers too.

One more thought we had. Get the AFA website set up so that you can enter the members only section and have a forum such as here to ask direct questions out of public eye. That may be part of the plan for the new website anyway, I don't know. But it's a good plan for sure.

Regards, and thanks for your input. Martin Kenny
If you feel shoeing horses is best served by how well you can work in the forge, you are missing the point!

It is how well you shoe a horse, so he performs at his best advantage, IN SPITE of his personal issues. Forge work is simply a tool that MAY be...
The administrator has disabled public write access.

RE:Will the REAL AFA please stand up? 27 Jun 2008 07:39 #22

  • T.N. Trosin
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Martin Kenny wrote:
So I am just throwing it out there because I had been asked how I felt it could be made easier to get to know the candidates a bit better before making the decision on how to vote. It is a good question and I feel this may be one answer to consider. Let me know what you think!
Martin Kenny

Lets compare

Martin Kenny- Don't know him never met him in nearly 17 years of on off AFA membership.

Andrew Elsbree- met him at convention in Kansas City Mo

Dick Fanguy- met him at my frist convention in Albuqurque in 1993 or 4 (can't remember), seen him at every convention ever since.

Eric Nyguard- Finally had the guts to introduce myself to him at a convention in Lexington KY, in 2002 after seeing himat conventions for several years.

David Furguson, Met him at NCC in 1996 or 7 Seen him at conventions ever since and tests in california where he was the examiner.

Craig Trnka First saw him in Durango CO in 1990 at Four courners Met and talked to him at NCC a few years later. Seen him at every convention I have ever been to.

Bob Earle, met him at a clinic I hosted in the LA area in 1996, seen him at every convention since until the end of his term as vice president.

Emil Carre met him at my certification test in 1992, Saw him at every convention until the end of his presidency

How about Candidates that have run but haven't won

John Blombach, met him at a convention in Kanas City Mo. in 1998-99? Seen him at every convention I have been to since.

Jeff Ridley, He called me shortly after I became WSFA President and the Chapters Board Rep. in 2005, seen him at every convention since except the last one.

Are you getting the picture yet? Let me spell it out, why should the AFA and the local chapter's change the way we do things to meet a guy who doesn't feel compeled to get out amoung us in the first place?
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RE:Will the REAL AFA please stand up? 27 Jun 2008 10:09 #23

  • Martin Kenny
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T.N. Trosin wrote:
Lets compare

Martin Kenny- Don't know him never met him in nearly 17 years of on off AFA membership.

Andrew Elsbree- met him at convention in Kansas City Mo

Dick Fanguy- met him at my frist convention in Albuqurque in 1993 or 4 (can't remember), seen him at every convention ever since.

Eric Nyguard- Finally had the guts to introduce myself to him at a convention in Lexington KY, in 2002 after seeing himat conventions for several years.

David Furguson, Met him at NCC in 1996 or 7 Seen him at conventions ever since and tests in california where he was the examiner.

Craig Trnka First saw him in Durango CO in 1990 at Four courners Met and talked to him at NCC a few years later. Seen him at every convention I have ever been to.

Bob Earle, met him at a clinic I hosted in the LA area in 1996, seen him at every convention since until the end of his term as vice president.

Emil Carre met him at my certification test in 1992, Saw him at every convention until the end of his presidency

How about Candidates that have run but haven't won

John Blombach, met him at a convention in Kanas City Mo. in 1998-99? Seen him at every convention I have been to since.

Jeff Ridley, He called me shortly after I became WSFA President and the Chapters Board Rep. in 2005, seen him at every convention since except the last one.

Are you getting the picture yet? Let me spell it out, why should the AFA and the local chapter's change the way we do things to meet a guy who doesn't feel compeled to get out amoung us in the first place?



Mr. Trossin, You bring up a great list of past elected officials that you have known over the years. One of which I administered his CJF test back in about 1983 (may be off a year either direction).
While it is true that I have not attended an AFA convention for years, that is for some good reasons and I will explain.

#1 The AFA conventions of late have not offered enough in depth highly technical input for me to justify spending the amount of money it takes to attend. Every year, I sit down with the list of subjects being spoken on and their speakers and say "Now how much time will I actually spend attending lectures that have real value to me." In the past several years, the answer is an average of under 3 hours. Most of the other time slots are taken up by competition, (which I don't care to watch any more.... but have competed in my self many years ago) or with lectures that are geared (rightfully so) toward the less experienced farriers. So I go to other venues to glean the knowledge that I desire at this time in my career. That is a business decision.

#2 I have NEVER used the AFA convention as a time when I go to socialize. I go to learn. so that does not provide a purpose for me to go either. If I were to be an elected leader of an organization, I would certainly attend, that is part of the job (in my opinion).

#3 I have stickers on a plexi-glass board from 12 conventions I attended in a row starting with the first sticker they ever gave out. I was also at the first one we ever had (here in NC when I was living in PA). It was held in Apex NC at a local vet clinic. I stayed in a tent in a park because I could not afford a hotel. I may have very well been to some of the ones you attened, but as I already stated, I don't go to socialize. When not in meetings< I usually go to my room and read. ...............Oh I just read your post again and I guess you never did meet me as I had moved on to other venues (as explained above) back in 1990, which according to your post Don't know him never met him in nearly 17 years of on off AFA membership. is before you were a member of the AFA.

I hope this clears this up for you.
Regards, Martin D. Kenny

PS There is still time, why don't you step up to the plate and run for the VP slot, nominations are still open until July First. As I explained my Pastor had a good idea. Don't offer criticism unless you are ready to offer an alternative.

If you feel shoeing horses is best served by how well you can work in the forge, you are missing the point!

It is how well you shoe a horse, so he performs at his best advantage, IN SPITE of his personal issues. Forge work is simply a tool that MAY be...
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RE:Will the REAL AFA please stand up? 27 Jun 2008 17:13 #24

Martin Kenny wrote:
PS There is still time, why don't you step up to the plate and run for the VP slot, nominations are still open until July First. As I explained my Pastor had a good idea. Don't offer criticism unless you are ready to offer an alternative.

Martin,

There are some other tenets about offering criticism that might be taken into consideration here as well... I realize that you've been away for a long time, but during the 17 or 18 years you were out in other venues, Tom Trosin has been one of the most active team players in the AFA.

He's served on the Board of Directors, he's served as the Board Representative to the EC, he's served on numerous committees, he chaired the committee on Restructuring the Board, he currently chairs the Bylaws Committee....

I'm sure that I'm leaving a ton of stuff out here--like his Presidency of the WSFA and all the work he's doing there, but the bottom line is that--in my book at least--Trosin has busted his butt to improve the AFA, working diligently through the good times and the bad--earning him the right to criticize, praise, and/or say what he pleases.
~~Danvers

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RE:Will the REAL AFA please stand up? 27 Jun 2008 22:35 #25

  • Martin Kenny
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danverschild wrote:
Martin,

There are some other tenets about offering criticism that might be taken into consideration here as well... I realize that you've been away for a long time, but during the 17 or 18 years you were out in other venues, Tom Trosin has been one of the most active team players in the AFA.

He's served on the Board of Directors, he's served as the Board Representative to the EC, he's served on numerous committees, he chaired the committee on Restructuring the Board, he currently chairs the Bylaws Committee....

I'm sure that I'm leaving a ton of stuff out here--like his Presidency of the WSFA and all the work he's doing there, but the bottom line is that--in my book at least--Trosin has busted his butt to improve the AFA, working diligently through the good times and the bad--earning him the right to criticize, praise, and/or say what he pleases.

Danvers, I do appreciate your bringing Mr. Trosin's background to my attention as it pertains to the AFA. Had the AFA had an active website perhaps I could have checked out the standings of those who have posted here more closely. But since we don't I did not have the proper resources to do so.

That having been said I would like to publicly apologize for not being as informed as I probably should have been when I essentially asked him to consider running for the AFA VP Slot. I trust is able to accept that apology.

I also trust that my explanation for why he does not know me is sufficient. I was speaking to a local farrier today and he made a good point. How many of us have ever met or even spoke to the elected officials in our county, state, or national governments. Yet we are able to make a decision on who to back in those elections. Why should it be any different in the AFA situation?

He made a good point.

Regards. Martin
If you feel shoeing horses is best served by how well you can work in the forge, you are missing the point!

It is how well you shoe a horse, so he performs at his best advantage, IN SPITE of his personal issues. Forge work is simply a tool that MAY be...
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RE:Will the REAL AFA please stand up? 28 Jun 2008 01:41 #26

  • J.H. shoeing
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Martin Kenny wrote:
How many of us have ever met or even spoke to the elected officials in our county, state, or national governments.

I have, county, state, and national elected officials.

Ever think you were digging yourself a hole you are going to have to climb out of later?

It doesn't take much to get involved with politics. Read, listen, and ask questions.
Jeff Holder

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RE:Will the REAL AFA please stand up? 28 Jun 2008 03:07 #27

  • Derin Foor
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After 20 some posts on this thread, here's the bottom line........

There is no communication coming from within the AFA !!!!!!!!

That is why I am frustrated with the AFA. A little info would go a long way. Answering questions when asked would go a long way toward retaining membership. The same enthusiasm shown in 'getting their message out' today like they did pre-election would sure make the members feel better about sending in the $150 check every year and supporting the programs that support them. Getting the things that are promised as part of a membership make people want to stay and get involved instead of losing interest and not participating. Sugar coating the truth doesn't make facts easier to swallow from where I sit.

It's pretty easy to see why there is no dissemination of information considering the lack of a website, a consistant magazine or even a simple newsletter. And that's not a slam on the folks involved........it's just a fact. A one paragraph e-mail from Andrew saying that there was a board meeting, blah, blah, blah and this is what we are working on would be a 100% improvement over what we currently get and would take what, 10 minutes to send out ?!?!?!?!

I get a constant stream of information from the VHA, our local association, and we are a meer 100+ member group. Yes, we have top notch folks working within the association, but so does the AFA. Communication is the key that's missing because (for whatever reason) it's not being allowed to happen. Geeshhhhh this is 5th grade stuff we are talking about here ! And we wonder why interest in the AFA seems to be lacking. If the AFA interacted even .0001% as much as my teenage kids do with their friends, we would all be on a first name basis. My kids know 10 minutes after the fact that someone is going out with so and so.........as an AFA member I don't know for months at a time what was discussed at the last board meeting.

Frustrated, angry, and dissapointed.

Derin
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RE:Will the REAL AFA please stand up? 28 Jun 2008 03:12 #28

  • BS-Horseshoeing
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Derin Foor wrote:
After 20 some posts on this thread, here's the bottom line........

There is no communication coming from within the AFA !!!!!!!!

That is why I am frustrated with the AFA. A little info would go a long way. Answering questions when asked would go a long way toward retaining membership. The same enthusiasm shown in 'getting their message out' today like they did pre-election would sure make the members feel better about sending in the $150 check every year and supporting the programs that support them. Getting the things that are promised as part of a membership make people want to stay and get involved instead of losing interest and not participating. Sugar coating the truth doesn't make facts easier to swallow from where I sit.

It's pretty easy to see why there is no dissemination of information considering the lack of a website, a consistant magazine or even a simple newsletter. And that's not a slam on the folks involved........it's just a fact. A one paragraph e-mail from Andrew saying that there was a board meeting, blah, blah, blah and this is what we are working on would be a 100% improvement over what we currently get and would take what, 10 minutes to send out ?!?!?!?!

I get a constant stream of information from the VHA, our local association, and we are a meer 100+ member group. Yes, we have top notch folks working within the association, but so does the AFA. Communication is the key that's missing because (for whatever reason) it's not being allowed to happen. Geeshhhhh this is 5th grade stuff we are talking about here ! And we wonder why interest in the AFA seems to be lacking. If the AFA interacted even .0001% as much as my teenage kids do with their friends, we would all be on a first name basis. My kids know 10 minutes after the fact that someone is going out with so and so.........as an AFA member I don't know for months at a time what was discussed at the last board meeting.

Frustrated, angry, and dissapointed.

Derin


Yea, what he said!!:cool::D:o
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RE:Will the REAL AFA please stand up? 28 Jun 2008 09:52 #29

  • Martin Kenny
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BS-Horseshoeing wrote:
Yea, what he said!!:cool::D:o

Amen to Derin for certain Great Post!!!!!!!!!!!!
Martin
If you feel shoeing horses is best served by how well you can work in the forge, you are missing the point!

It is how well you shoe a horse, so he performs at his best advantage, IN SPITE of his personal issues. Forge work is simply a tool that MAY be...
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RE:Will the REAL AFA please stand up? 28 Jun 2008 13:19 #30

What do you guys want? Do you want an organization that embraces new ideas and focuses on education or one that that tells you how to shoe a horse to a standard and focuses on competition?

Your not going to get a lot of communications on the later, your just going to get the same ole do your homework, study and prep for the test and practical and show up. Now you on a journey, eventually get your certification and find yourself still trying to figure out what a lever is.
Phil Armitage, CF
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