unbridled wrote:
The question, "what is a farrier?", is posed, discussed and debated in endless circles. The question often illicits comments about quality, knowledge, motor skills, farrier versus horseshoer versus trimmer, or any number of countless variations of practice.

Perhaps a broader, albeit simpler measurement, can better act as a basis to provide at least a minimal definition.

In my youth I was once told that the difference between an amateur and a professional, regardless of endeavour, is monetary compensation. In short, professionals get paid for what they do; amateurs do not.

I would therefore offer that the first and perhaps simplest test one might apply is, "Do you earn regular income by installing orthotics on a horse?".

If the answer is yes, then there is at least the suggestion that you are a farrier.

Respectfully,

Mark

Cyber Farrier wrote:
Baron,

Andrew is at http://andrewelsbree.blogspot.com/

Susan Kayne
www.UnbridledRacing.com

unbridled wrote:
I have my hands quite full riding herd here, thank you. And thank you for answering my question. You are welcome to post in the Farriers Helping Farriers forums.

Baron

How could anyone not let a good lookin lady like Susan
join in

unbridled wrote:
Susan, while I know that Baron has again flip flopped on a decision,

I would like to ask you if you present yourself as a Farrier in any field that you converse in?

I work on my barn and house roof, and am capable at it, but I have never promoted myself as a roofer. I'm sure you get the thought, so my question again is, have you or do you ever introduce yourself as a farrier, irregardless of what brand of shoes or nails or where they come from?


Regards

Ray Steele

unbridled wrote:
Read your post(23), you state you want the best farrier money can buy, so by your own post you admitt you are not a working farrier. Anyone can pull shoes, anyone can trimm hooves. If you can do it, then why are you hiring someone else to do the work for you?????

beslagsmed wrote:
What about (semi) retired farriers? Hmmmmm.......

Steve

ray steele wrote:
A flip flop would imply that a decision had been made previous to my asking the question. As is clear from the way the question was framed, no decision had been made. The question included a note that if the answer was negative, then she was not to post on this side.

Baron

By way of the answers and discussion it is clear that the definition of a "farrier" is far and wide. All of this banter begs the next question, which should be healthy discussion:How about those who refer to themselves as "hoofcare professionals"..are they classified as farriers too? And please, go at it thoughtfully I am all for the creme rising and having the entire horse industry view farriers as I do: THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT COMPONENT OF ANY STABLE...THE FOUNDATION TO THE REALITY OF A MULTI-BILLION DOLLARE INDUSTRY.

Quote from Beslagsmed: Read your post(23), you state you want the best farrier money can buy, so by your own post you admitt you are not a working farrier. Anyone can pull shoes, anyone can trimm hooves. If you can do it, then why are you hiring someone else to do the work for you?????

In reply to BeslagsMed:

In my own businesses, if someone can do something better than me, I want to learn how and why so I can be equally or more successful. If someone can do it better and it benefits my horse more I absolutely want the best, brighest, most elite, most educated farrier money can buy. That farrier is invaluable to my horse operation. In the long run, he or she save me 1000s of dollars in vet bills.

Respectfully, Susan Kayne
www.UnbridledRacing.com

I don't think it should be a rule.. I think Susan has very valid points for our section. Besides, I saw a video of Andrew showing her how to correctly, and safely pull a shoe. If there is a problem with her here then I am going to send her $40 to pull a pair of shoes off of one of her horses and then she will officially be a professional farrier!

By the way, I know a female CJF here who has a few horses herself... in a group once one of the guys asked her if she shoes her horses any differently than she does her clients... her reply... Hell, I don't shoe my own, I pay xxxxxx CJF to shoe mine...

It might technically be someone who shoes for money that makes them a professional farrier... might be someone who works full time is a professional farrier, but it is all perspective. This is an educational forum is it not? So if someone raises/trains or whatever and does their own shoeing, then what they are doing is shoeing. If they have a question about how to address a particular problem then how do they differ from me, a full time AFA CF farrier posing a question about addressing a certain issue? Both of us are asking for advice to help with a horse that we are working on whether getting paid or not. Therefore this part of the site I think should be open for anyone asking. Farriers helping horse owners doesn't apply to that category.... a horse owner who is not shoeing a horse doesn't need to ask a farrier how to shoe a horse... Susan is very affiliated with the equine industry and farriers. She has done a lot for farriers education. Her part here in this forum helps farriers helping farriers.

Like Ron K talked about, a pack of dogs will attack the injured or weaker dog in a fight. Andrew had the guts to run for the position and the earnest to make a positive difference in my association and I applaud his efforts and will await with patience for the productivity. It is hard enough without all the armchair lawyers and debaters attacking him. We are all farriers. We are an important need but are only seen once every month and a half. We are easy targets for owners knowing nothing about their horse to blame anything and everything on US! Don't we learn from our own business? Can't we stay away from doing the same to one of our own? Give him a chance to get things done. He was brave enough to take the position, it doesn't have to come with a bullseye on the chest. So let's stop nit picking like a bunch of hens and get down to business.

EDesocio,

The difficulty that I have with the "farrier only rule" is that those who abide by it are left out. ex. the barefoot trimmer who pulls shoes to do his or her thing gets asked to leave the Farrier helping Farrier section while the person who you are willing to send the $40.00 to be "legitimized" even though in the video, she was being "shown" how to use the tools and do the job. My questions to Susan was to define in her own words if she truly, or otherwise considers herself a farrier/horseshoer/ironhanger/installer,or is this discussion only so she can participate on this forum.


This same question came up some time ago when Thomas Ride and Drive was called upon by Andrew Grimm in the same way, eventually TRD was allowed as a member,even though he clearly stated that he was not a farrier.

Have any of you noticed that we haven't heard much if anything from Andrew since around that time? Might that mean that while we gained a non farrier in TRD, we might have lost a practicing farrier in Andrew. I could ask rhetorical questions about the possabilities.

To me it is not about Thomas or Susan , it is, if this forum is labeled Farriers helping Farriers, why leave others out because they follow the rules,and then make exceptions . Aren't there other forums that this whole conversation could take place,or and this would be a question for Baron, shoul the Farrier only banner dismissed

Regards

Ray Steele

unbridled wrote:
It is certainly true that anyone may call themself a farrier. This is not a debatable point.

Susan,
The description of yourself on your web site does not list "farrier" under the description of yourself, and it seems reasonable that you might be limited in schooling as well as experience. At the same time, you are touting the importance of the industry. How can one make both of these arguments? Are you helping the perception of the industry by describing yourself as a farrier, or are you making a point?
(or maybe I am wrong and you have been to farrier school)

Also, adding to Ray's point, exceptions have been made for people in farrier related industries such as veterinarians or equine journalists.

It's called Circular Logic; if one makes an argument encompassing all tenants of facts from different subjects then diverge into ad hominem(s) to prove a point.

Linear logic- a delineation of facts into an argument to make a certain point with no self expression(s) to prove a point.

I find all this debating "is she or is she not ?" a bit of wasted time.

If Susan is anything like my wife was, she quite possibly takes Andrews idea's/thoughts etc. and most likely organizes them so they come across the way he has them in his head and puts them to paper or the computer for him.

Susan is an accomplished writer and speaker.
I can't help but believe she goes over all of Andrews posting before it goes out to be read by anyone.
If this is true and I would be very surprized if it isn't, then why not let Susan join in on this forum.
You give permission to Andrew and in turn will still be getting Susan in the background.
So cut out the middle man and let Susan speak.
You know her thoughts and Andrews will be coming through via her posting, so you get two for the price of one.

What is or what constitutes being a Farrier ?
In todays world here in the USA since there are no legal restrictions that regulate who can be classified as a Farrier, ANYONE WHO BUYS TOOLS OR PICKS UP TOOLS AND DOES A FEW HORSES, be it for money or to shoe/trim their own IS IN ACTUALITY A FARRIER !!!
You can let your ego's define who or what is a farrier, and you can segregate folks by their skill levels, and you can come up with all sorts of excuses why, who, or what is or isn't a farrier, BUT the truth is defined above.
I can buy tools today and go out and work for horse owners tomorrow and call myself a farrier.
Certification is nothing but LETTERS after ones name. It is not a legal binding legitimate classification of one being a Farrier.
It is only a classification of one's skill level per the organization distrubting ther letters.

My two cents worth

I can't recall the name of the Supreme Court Justice who, when asked why he had voted with the majority to reverse a decision which he'd voted for a decade prior, answered, "What separates human beings from animals is that upon consideration of new information, we are capable of changing our minds."

My decision concerning allowing Susan to post on the Farriers Helping Farriers forums has been weighing on me. (It's lonely at the top.) After additional consideration, I've decided to modify my original decision, and make it a "split decision." Susan is welcome to post only in the Political Forum of the Farriers Helping Farriers forums, but not the other Farriers Helping Farriers forums. I wish everything were black and white, it would make my life a lot easier. Weighing all the facts, I think this is a fair decision.

Baron