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TOPIC: AFA President Elsbree Blogging

RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 00:28 #16

  • Rick Burten
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EDeSocio wrote:
Sorry for giving wrong information Rick,

Apology accepted.:)
but then who is to say which is right? What the tester thinks is good for the horse and the examiner thinks is good for the horse if they totally disagree... then they compromise?

Actually, the Examiner has the final say in the matter.
Then one guy has to shoe a horse with barshoes, 2 degree wedge pads and rocker toes and the other guy has to do a regular perimeter fit for a horse... what is fair between those two exams.. they get the same letters behind their names.

You have completely misunderstood the meaning of this is a true field exam, and I don't know how to make it any more clear to/for you.
The AFA in my opinion isn't telling you how to shoe horses - all your horses in your books - it is giving you a standard to fit a prescription and everyone is tested along the same guidelines. So if everyone takes the same test then everyone is tested fairly.

When testing to a predetermined standard, all that is tested is one's motor skills. IOW with the AFA you are testing to an already "defined target". With the GPF, you, the candidate, first have to define the target, then attempt to hit what you aim at.

Regardless of the fact that everyone takes the same test, the scoring of that test is subjective? Doubt me? Then explain why regular Examiner and Tester updates are required.
They are telling you how to shoe that particular horse, yes.

No, you are told how to shoe four feet regardless of what the horse might need. The AFA exams have nothing to do with the horse. They have only to do with meeting a predetermined standard. Period. And that ain't horseshoeing or farriery.
But then you do shoe every horse differently to some degree don't you?

Actually, I trim and shoe every hoof to its own individual needs and requirements, while at the same time having to factor in the needs, wants and requirements of the trainer and/or owner, and often, the veterinarian.
Maybe one of your associations demands you certify every year but what a hassle that is truthfully.

Where did I say that? The original ELPO proposal was for recertification every two years. At this time, the proposal under review is for recertification every four years with the in between years requiring a case study to be submitted.

If that is a hassle, then perhaps you(the collective rather than the individual) should not be a part of that organization.
I took my drivers license once and paid dues every few years to renew it... I haven't lost my driving ability or skills... actually AZ got smart and instituted the license that you take once and it expires when you turn 65.. then they reexamine your ability to retaining a license.

Retesting requirements vary state to state.
Same idea goes with the AFA exams... When you attain a proficiency then you have gotten to your goal. It should be up to you to keep up your proficiency as your own personal pride dictates.

A bad situation IMO. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why there is now a proposal for the AFA to form an Ethics Committee. Imagine the bureaucratic nightmare that is going to create.
For instance, I am shoeing up to 3 horses a day with hand mades. I can't find a keg shoe that has the craftsmanship I can put into a keg shoe. Therefore I forgo trying to shoe 12 horses a day and be rich for 3 horses a day doing quality work.

If you have to shoe 12 horses a day to be rich, then you are doing something wrong. JMO of course.
Those three horses get done to them what I plan to do and feel is best for that particular horse. I keeps me away from shoeing with blinders on and fitting every foot the same way no matter what.

Doesn't matter if you forge from bar stock or modifiy keg shoes, right is right and wrong is wrong. And if someone, even a CJF heaven forfend, wants to do substandard work, then that's what s/he will produce. And there are those that believe that that appellation somehow has given them powers and ability beyond that of mortal man. Unfortunately, their work tells a different story, appellation not withstanding.
Sloppy work I refuse to be a part of.

And that makes you unique, how? You think that others, even those who do not have an appellation after their name, or aren't members of the AFA or other organization, somehow don't have the same outlook?

If so, then your attitude is just a bad, if not worse, than the attitude Mr. Elsbree presented with his snide comment regarding keg shoers.

Perhaps Mr. Elsbree did not mean the comment that way, but that's the way it reads for most people. And, even if it read that way for only one person, then that person is owed an apology.
It is work ethic and pride.. THAT is what has built the AFA and that is what needs to remain.

What ever gave you that silly notion? And remember, "pride goeth before a fall......"
Part of what I am defending with Andrew and the AFA is that the people who are harping on him.... Such as Mr. Davis, and the second poster on Andrew's blog have never been a part of the AFA.

I don't know and really don't care, but are you a member of a political party?

If so, have you ever commented about the other political party(ies) and their leadership? And, if you are an Independent, have you ever commented about the other political parties and/or their leadership? What's good for the goose is good for the gander.......
They refuse to join a brotherhood and be part of a team for whatever reasons and justify it with such negative reasons.

Generally speaking, farriers are eclectic non-conformists and independents.

Even those who join the various and sundry farrier organizations most often retain their individuality. And, based on the membership numbers, there are more, much more of those who don't want to be a part of your "brotherhood" than those who do. You might want to ponder on why that is so. You might also want to ponder on the question of why the AFA is so unable to retain members.
If you haven't voted you can't blame the election, if you haven't paid your dues and tested then you can't claim you can pass the exam blindfolded, if you haven't been part of the Association then you can't complain about one guy who is slowly trying to get it back together after it has failed so miserably in the previous years.

Do you honestly believe that these past failures are any worse than the current ones? Or, conversely, that past successes are any greater than current ones?
The website has had links that were non existent, old out dated material, So Andrew sees a problem there and is working to get it fixed.

So, getting it fixed means to tear the web site down before you have a new one up, running and ready to go? Now that's truly visionary!

While you may not know it, the old web site was, at the time the former members of the IT Committee left office, robust and able to fulfill the needs and requirements of the AFA and at very little cost to the AFA. And, the AFA spent a lot of money and countless man hours to get it to that position. And the result? Burn it down, throw away your resource, and resources(financial and human) and replace it with what? Nothing, that's what. Is that really your idea of good, smart, pro-active leadership?
Danvers who is the absolute right guy for the job has taken the publication issue and working on that.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Danvers undertook a Hurculean task and has received very little help/support from the membership. In point of fact, many of the "brotherhood" have been supporting a magazine that blatently ripped off the name of the AFA publication, and has contributed mightely and materially to the problems Danvers and Co., now face. So much for "brotherhood" and "riding for the brand...."
whining doesn't help get things done.

Who's whining?
What you do to the horse and what I do to the horse may look different, might be two different things but if the horse stays sound then we both did the job.

Ever consider that that horse might stay sound in spite of you not because of you?
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 00:36 #17

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danverschild wrote:
I'll save you the legwork for your research. Mr. Elsbree came up with the framework for the CTF exam and introduced it to the Certification Committee. After approval by that committee and the AFA Board of Directors, it was instituted upon the publication of the 2nd edition of the Certification Study Guide.

The point to ponder was not who came up with the classification, but why, and what that means in light of Mr. Elsbree's comments on his blog.
Mr. Elsbree also came up with the framework for the American Farrier Classification (FC),

Which IIRC, both you and I objected to(the nomenclature, that is). I do seem to recall that you made some very pointed arguments to the Certification Committee about why this terminology was not a good choice. And, I agreed with you.
Based upon his having introduced both the CTF and the FC levels for the AFA Certification program, based upon the demos he's done for Certification at AFA Conventions, and so forth... I'd say that Andrew's comment was intended to refer to slapping shoes on out of a box, but I'll leave the clarification to him.

While his intentions may well have been just as you suppose, the fact remains that not everyone is as intim-ately acquainted with Mr. Elsbree's efforts and thus will and demonstrably have, place a different spin on his written word.
For my part, I can say that he's never belittled me for nailing keg shoes on, and I've certainly never heard him belittle his colleagues (AFA Officers) for nailing on keggers. Rest assured that the AFA is not in jeopardy if the dust bin is associated with distinctions between keggers and handmades; I've shod with both the President-Elect and the Vice President, and both of them used keg shoes :)

I fear you have misunderstood the point(s) I was making. :o

C'est la vie, C'est la guerre. :)
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 00:42 #18

  • Jaye Perry
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EDeSocio....Part of what I am defending with Andrew and the AFA is that the people who are harping on him.... Such as ...... the second poster on Andrew's blog have never been a part of the AFA. ....


Wanna take a bet EDDEE? :cool: Do not speak of which you do not know; because you will not win the bet!;)
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RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 00:54 #19

  • Rick Burten
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vthorseshoe wrote:
Rick, and others.
I didn't find his blog offensive . His remark about keg shoe's was pretty clear to me.

But demonstrably, it was clear in a different way, to others. :o
I kinda like his blog and his bringing out some info to us. I hope he continue's with it.
I wouldn't mind seeing something similar from Mr. Fanguay and other heads of committies.

Gee whiz Bruce, when we had a functioning web site, and a news letter and a timely magazine, we already had that and really didn't need a "Presidential, et al" blog did we?

Now, on Mr. Elsbree's blog, he gives passing mention, with no details, of the last Board of Director's meeting. And, I've been told that the minutes of that meeting will not be made available to the membership until they are approved by the BOD. Which is as it should be. Except that it appears that that approval won't occur until the September 08 BOD meeting.

Now, who's kidding whom here? The new board should be able to meet in a teleconference and approve those minutes much sooner than Sept. Why the long delay?

OTOH, since there seems to now be no way to get those minutes in front of the membership (no website, no magazine, no newsletter), perhaps it really doesn't matter after all.

And since apparently all requests for information, by the members of the AFA now have to go through their Regional representative(s), we now have an extra layer of filtration and possible delay in the timely dissemination of information.
I believe any communication is good communication.

Doesn't seem like the AFA membership is going to get it anytime soon, does it?
I also would like to see the website up and working, but I believe, that decisions and approvals and such need to be brought before a committee and the board before action takes place. (that means time to wait for a meeting be held and everything discussed and then aprroved or items revamped and then perhaps waiting for another meeting to approve)
Now it has been a really slow process and I know that Ron had done a lot of work, but someone else is running the show and it is being done his way now.
That most likely means starting from scratch and a different concept from what Ron had going.

Reference my comments on this in an earlier response.
The old cleshae' "hang in there" is getting very old, but what else can be done but hang in there.

Apparently there are those who opt to not hang in there.
The wheels of business move slowly.

Then perhaps, in a business the size of the AFA, some lubrication is needed.
No one has called for an AFA coffin yet,

No one has to.
and it is highly unlikely that it is on its way out like some have so aptly predicted.

Perhaps you are correct. I hope so.
There will always be mountains to climb, and not everyone will every agree.
Not even to disagree, so lets give these folks the chance to do what they were voted in to do.

Which is?
Very few folks wanted this job and not a lot stepped up to the plate.

Ever wonder/consider why?

Bruce, I understand where you are coming from and I find it laudable. Hopefully those are sun glasses you are wearing and not, rose colored glasses.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
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RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 03:02 #20

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Brown Bear wrote:
Well said ED.:)

If you want to post in the Political Forum you must use your real name either as your screen name, or at the end of your post.

Baron
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RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 03:07 #21

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Rick,

I understand you views and it won't be the first time I have looked through rose colored glasses.

I will send you a proivate message
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
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RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 06:03 #22

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I took his remark about keg shoes as those who just slap a keg shoe on, not to those who properly shape/rework a keg shoe to the horse's needs. But the thing is when you put yourself in a glass house you better expect people to see through the glass differently - proof read your stuff before publishing.

Now if he is all for communication, why is it only now we are seeing something? I can recall lots of question on the AFA site which were answered by others when we should have heard from Andrew. When the new AFA website is up and running will he then use it in promoting its usage?
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 12:05 #23

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It is incumbent upon us as an association to be the best skilled craftsman we can be, to not just know what we do…but why we do it and be able to articulate it with a clear, concise and unified voice. This will create the next generation of real farriers, …not just installers of keg shoes.

Whining, complaining, misconstruing and attacking this statement should really cause you fellows to look inward and ask yourselves why you are so offended?

Real farriers are real educated horsemen and women who know what they do, why they do and can articulate the same. They can properly shoe a horse with handmades or modify a keg shoe to perfection, both for the betterment of the horse.

I have been the victim of installers, and that is just what they are. They come slap a keg shoe on with no sole relief, a shoe too small and ill fit. They lame the horse and call themselves farriers. There a lot of them out there.

I change the oil in my car...does that make me a mechanic?

As a horse owner of 30 years, I want the best educated, most skilled farrier money can buy. I want the most elite, the brightest and most knowledgable hoofcare professional I can find. My horses are sound and it saves money on vet bills! Most horse owner's want the same, we don't need to own horses, so the work we do in order have this luxury means we want the best of the best.

So why do you all defend the "installer" who brings your trade lower?

The horse owning public wants real farriers, educated, skilled and experienced craftsman. If you do not aspire to be this as the foundation to a multi-billion dollar industry perhaps you should consider another trade and leave the hoofcare for real farriers.

Susan Kayne
www.UnbridledRacing.com
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RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 13:12 #24

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unbridled wrote:
As a horse owner of 30 years, I want the best educated, most skilled farrier money can buy. www.UnbridledRacing.com

If you're not a farrier, why are you posting in the Farrier's only section? Maybe you should carry your thought to the horse owners section:rolleyes:
Mikel Dawson, RJF

(Denmark)
What part of "NO" don't you understand!!

Caution: Watch for hoof in mouth disease!!!
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RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 13:24 #25

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Rick Burten wrote:
Now, in closing, I pose this question to you, Eric. If the AFA CJF certification is the "gold standard", then why is it that there are a number of CJF's that have unsuccessfully stood for the GPF exams?

Rick- you like to mention this often. The GPF examiners have a predetermined notion as to what they think good work is. You have no preset standards as to how to judge any of the work. An example is me having to run over my patten shoe with a box van to prove it wouldn't break!

One reason some cjf's don't pass the gpf exam is simply because they didn't feel like stroking the examiners ego on that paticular day.
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RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 13:24 #26

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Beslagsmed:

What disqualifies me from being a farrier? What are the qualifications to be a farrier?
Who says horse owners can't be farriers.....?
Isn't that a key part of this discussion?

Susan Kayne
www.UnbridledRacing.com
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RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 14:23 #27

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unbridled wrote:
Beslagsmed:

What disqualifies me from being a farrier?

Susan Kayne
www.UnbridledRacing.com

Susan, do you shoe horses? If not, please abide by the rules and abstain from the Farriers Helping Farriers forums. Andrew is always welcome to post, of course.

Thank you.

Baron
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
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“No man's life, liberty, or property is safe...
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RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 14:38 #28

Susan,
That is an excellent question! What exactly does disqualify you from being a farrier? I've seen a video somewhere of you pulling a shoe...

Rick,
I've submitted a few articles to the AFA mag and the "TPF" some have been printed, some have not. As an author, if I put my time, energy and thought into a project (writing a decent article is a lot of work) i want as many people who might be interested in seeing it as possible. The AFA mag is a members only publication, thus no more than 3000 people may see what I've written, while if I submitt the same peice to other publications, more eyes see my thinking (which may be correct or not, but the more people thinking about something the better) The last article in the TPF was also submitted to the AFA in december of '07, but as of yet has not been published by the AFA (maybe it will, maybe it won't thats the powers that be decision to make... and what ever happens is fine with me). The AFA has been a huge catalyst in my carreer, and has provided me with a a lot of opportunities; they are also a small fragment of the horseshoeing population. Access to education or a mode of thinking is important, and other publications enable my small voice and unique perspective to be heard by more farriers. The more people who see something, the greater the chance that someone will question an aspect of the topic being discussed... and then we ALL learn something new. Being an AFA member should not and does not preclude me from exploring other avenues for thought, skill or knowledge. I'm also a Guild member, and will eventually attempt the NB certs just to climb that mountain... each presents a different view and a different chance to learn something that might help some horse somewhere.
Hell, if it would get printed I'd submitt to the New York Post and the USA Today so more folks could read, think about and question what I've written.
The AFA should not be presented as an exclusive club, but as a venue for futhering skill, knowledge and ability. That is what it has been for me.
JMO,
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 14:46 #29

Baron,
She is obviously not a farrier, and per the rules of this forum should not post in this section. I think her post was intended to raise the question "What is a farrier", and depending upon the perception, anyone with a few hundred bucks and willing to make a trip to TSC to buy a few diamonds and a 250 ct. box of Capewell SB5's could be misconstrued as a "farrier".
Though the question was posted in opposition to "Barons Rules of Order", it is still germane to the discussion.
I am not attempting to question you or your authority here, but feel the question tacit to her comment was good enough to be codefied.
Jason
"Always listen to the experts. They tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it." Robert Heinlien
Jason Maki CJF, RJF
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RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 15:03 #30

  • unbridled
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Baron,

Do I shoe horses. Yes, I have shod horses, I have trimmed horses and I attended many educational venues and clinics specific to shoeing horses.

I'd like to see where you have asked this question of eveyone else who has posted in this section and their replies.

Perhaps you need to expound on "Baron's Rules of Order" by answering the questions I posted to beslagsmed:

What disqualifies me from being a farrier?
What are the qualifications to be a farrier?
Who says horse owners can't be farriers.....?

Additionally..Do I need a specific level of certification to post?

You'll need to define the specific parameters that qualify one as a farrier. Like Jason says: Anyone can go to TSC and get the goods...

Susan Kayne
www.UnbridledRacing.com
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