make up natural cara make up make up tutorial make up korea make up minimalis make up artis make up mata belajar make up make up wardah alat make up makeup forever indonesia makeup artist jakarta tips make up barbie make up natural make up make up wajah make up pesta make up syahrini makeup mata makeup minimalis peralatan make up make up cantik make up mac make up kit jual make up make up sederhana perlengkapan make up gambar make up vidio make up cara makeup minimalis wardah make up make up pac make up glamour cara memakai makeup make up panggung harga make up make up modern make up alami make up dasar pixy make up make up muslimah make up oriflame make up jepang makeover cosmetic make up ultima make up sariayu grosir make up makeup fantasi makeup pesta tas makeup langkah make up make up pria make up malam alat makeup tahapan make up produk make up shading make up mak up make up kebaya make up jilbab make up inez make up simpel contoh make up cara ber makeup makeup wajah tanpa make up make up terbaru toko make up mac makeup indonesia make up soft urutan make up trik make up makeover makeup brand gusnaldi make up paket make up panduan make up jual makeup brush make up bagus alat2 make up make up gusnaldi aplikasi make up alat alat makeup dasar make up inez make up peralatan makeup make up wanita make up berjilbab make up tebal sejarah make up make up maybeline make up branded make up siang tata cara makeup reseller make up make up muslim make up maybelin warna make up tips make up artist rias make up make up mata make up artis belajar make up make up artist kursus make up kuas make up make up forever indonesia jual make up mac indonesia make up make up artist indonesia harga make up forever jual make up online make up pac make up forever jakarta make up oriflame jual make up forever make up online shop indonesia harga make up sekolah make up grosir make up harga make up maybelline jual make up murah make up terbaru mak up mac make up indonesia sofia make up make up kit murah mac makeup indonesia produk make up jual make up kit make up store indonesia make up forever academy jakarta toko make up online jual make up set jual make up mac make up beauty jual make up branded produk make up mac make up forever harga make up mac indonesia produk make up artis jual make up palette produk make up forever make up palette murah before after make up pengantin before after make up sendiri before n after hasil makeup contoh make up karakter contoh riasan pengantin before n after harga make up wisuda harga make up artist harga make up forever make up wisuda rias wisuda di jogja Daftar harga make up forever daftar harga make up mac daftar harga kosmetik make up forever makeup wisuda harga makeup wisuda kursus make up di yogyakarta kursus make up di jogja kursus make up jogja kursus make up yogyakarta kursus kecantikan di yogyakarta kursus kecantikan di jogja kursus make up artist di jogja kursus rias pengantin di jogja kursus rias di yogyakarta kursus tata rias di yogyakarta rias pengantin muslim jogja jasa kreasi jilbab wisuda yogyakarta jasa rias make up wisuda murah bagus bisa dpanggil tempat make uf di jigja yang bagus rias wisuda murah dan berkualitas yogyakarta pakar kreasi jilbab di jogja make uper natural yogya make up wisuda hijab area jogja make up dan kreasi jilbab yang bagus di jogja jasa make up natural untuk wisuda jogja makeup jogja make up jogja makeup yogyakarta make up yogyakarta makeup wisuda jogja make up wisuda jogja make up wisuda yogyakarta makeup wisuda yogyakarta
Tuesday June 28, 2022
Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: AFA President Elsbree Blogging

AFA President Elsbree Blogging 19 Jun 2008 01:33 #1

  • unbridled
  • unbridled's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 122
  • Karma: 0
The topic has been locked.

RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 19 Jun 2008 01:57 #2

  • Jaye Perry
  • Jaye Perry's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 5653
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
unbridled wrote:

From the Blog~~~


.............."This will create the next generation of real farriers, …not just installers of keg shoes."


Really?

Not until there is recognition of "there is more than one way skin a cat" .:rolleyes::rolleyes:


The topic has been locked.

RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 19 Jun 2008 06:35 #3

  • EDeSocio
  • EDeSocio's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Very Senior Member
  • Posts: 515
  • Karma: 0
Susan... tell Andrew I applaud his venture!

Jaye... what do you mean there? What people don't recognize is, the AFA isn't telling you how to shoe a horse.. the AFA is proving you can shoe a horse. If you can cut a bar of steel and fit the foot to a prescription then you know what you are doing.. as opposed to other associations where I get the feeling you have all the time in the world to shoe the horse, then you explain what you did and why you did it... So if you are trying to fit the horse full and you come up short.. you just change your story... that works with uneducated vets and owners but it is ruins our rep as farriers as a whole.

I totally believe in the AFA and the CJF exam.
"Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!"

Eric DeSocio CF
The topic has been locked.

RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 19 Jun 2008 06:39 #4

  • EDeSocio
  • EDeSocio's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Very Senior Member
  • Posts: 515
  • Karma: 0
Susan.. what a great philosophy to your UR deal.. I wish you the best of luck and I hope your care proves a point in the racing industry!
"Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!"

Eric DeSocio CF
The topic has been locked.

RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 19 Jun 2008 10:06 #5

  • Jaye Perry
  • Jaye Perry's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 5653
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
EDeSocio;Jaye... what do you mean there? What people don't recognize is, the AFA isn't telling you how to shoe a horse.. the AFA is proving you can shoe a horse

The "meaning", as referring to this statement: .............."This will create the next generation of real farriers, …not just installers of keg shoes.", is that an assumption is made that real farriers are not real farriers because they do not have a AFA sign off on their work.IMO.

A "Real Farrier" is a person that has well rounded experiences with the horse's leg and foot health at the forefront of their passion of their career.

In the developement of your career EDDEE you will or will not realize that forging a handmade shoe is just one part of the whole picture.

Before you retort EDDEE, consider your response. Looking from past retorts a sense of Zealous passion is sensed. You have condemed others for their passions, so let's see if you can respond with the " Big Picture" in mind. (?):confused:
The topic has been locked.

RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 19 Jun 2008 13:39 #6

  • Rick Burten
  • Rick Burten's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Enforcer
  • Posts: 9082
  • Thank you received: 50
  • Karma: 8
EDeSocio wrote:
What people don't recognize is, the AFA isn't telling you how to shoe a horse..

For the purpose of the exam they d-amn sure are.
the AFA is proving you can shoe a horse.

Actually, what is being shown is that a candidate can shoe a horse to a particular, arbitrary, standard.
If you can cut a bar of steel and fit the foot to a prescription then you know what you are doing..

What it proves is that you have a certain level of mechanical ability and manual dexterity.
as opposed to other associations where I get the feeling you have all the time in the world to shoe the horse, then you explain what you did and why you did it... So if you are trying to fit the horse full and you come up short.. you just change your story...

Well there you go Eric. You once again have proven that you don't do your homework or due dilligence.

Let me first address your misconceptions with regard to the Guild of Professional Farriers practical exam, which is a true field exam, unlike the AFA practicals which are a set of pre-determined "goals" that do not take anything into account other than meeting those goals. IOW, for the sake of the AFA exams, only the goals, not the horse, matter.

When a candidate stands for this exam, s/he first evaluates the horse both standing still and, in motion. Then, the candidate formulates a trimming and shoeing plan/protocol and presents it, it writing, to the examiner. At that time, the candidate has to verbally "defend:" his/her plan/protocol. This 'defense'/explanation brings into play the candidate's knowledge of anatomy, biomechanics, hoof and limb pathology, etc, ad naseum. Only if the Examiner is satisfied that the plan/protocol is proper/beneficial for the horse, does the candidate begin the actual work. Should the Examiner not fully agree with the plan/protocol, then the candidate and Examiner together come to an appropriate compromise.

Once agreement has been reached, the candidate goes to work. Upon completion of the work, s/he is evaluated based on the quality of the work and whether or not s/he fulfilled the plan/protocol. And, this is strictly a "Pass/Fail" evaluation. IOW, either the candidate did the job or they didn't.

So, unlike your misinformed contention that the candidate can change his/her story, the opposite is the absolute truth.

The suggested time frame for trimming and shoeing the horse is three hours.

That time frame can be exceeded when and only when there are exigent circumstances beyond the control of the candidate. For example, a horse needs bar shoes or pads or the like.. Other examples would include anything out of the ordinary that any farrier might run into during the course of his/her normal working day. Remember Eric, this is a true field exam, not a test of meeting a pre-determined standard.

And, the candidate is still required to build the shoes from bar stock.

The required written exam and the shoe display are the equal of anything required by the AFA.

Now, Eric, let me address the ELPO certification exams.

1. There is a time limit, though again, it can be modified for cause.
2. The candidate must trim and shoe the horse to a standard and to that end, is scored in several areas.
3. The candidate discusses with the examiner(s) abnormalities/problems present and how s/he is going to deal with them. And, why.
4. The written exam is as challenging, if not more so than those of the AFA, and involves more than multiple choice questions.
5. There is no "shoe display" per se, but each candidate has to show proficiency in the forge by altering shoes to fit provided templates. ie:, the candidate has to forge clips, modify front pattern shoes to fit hind patterns and vice versa, etc.
6. The ELPO organization is the only organization that requires its members to renew their certification(s) by examination, on a regular basis. In the AFA and the GPF, "once certified, always certified". You might want to think about that difference and what importance it holds.

I cannot speak to the BWFA exams as I have never stood for them or even attended one of their certifications.

I hope that Mr. Geist will chime in here and describe the JHU examination/certification process.

Now, in closing, I pose this question to you, Eric. If the AFA CJF certification is the "gold standard", then why is it that there are a number of CJF's that have unsuccessfully stood for the GPF exams?
that works with uneducated vets and owners but it is ruins our rep as farriers as a whole.

What ruins our reputation as farriers is when an individual who has, because s/he has passed some organization's certification, does shoddy work, or relies on his/her certification(s) to fool the horseowning public into believing that s/he knows more than s/he does or is capable of doing things s/he is incapable, for whatever reason(s) of doing.
I totally believe in the AFA and the CJF exam.

Good. So do I. But I also believe in the AFA CF and CTF exams, as well as those of the other organizations.

And, if the CJF appellation is the penultimate, then why did the AFA create the CTF category/classification? You might want to do some research before you answer that question.

As an AFA member and a CJF, I found Mr. Elsbree's statement to be condescending, disingenuous, disrespectful and unworthy of someone who leads an organization that is comprised of both certified and non-certified farriers(and others) and purports to represent the American farrier.

It is MNTBCHO that Mr. Elsbree owes everyone an apology for his statement.

Further, if this is indicative of the mind set of the leaders of the AFA, then the AFA is in perilous waters and is in danger of becoming a foot note in the dust bin of history.
Rick Burten PF

In the immortal words of Ron White: "But let me tell you something, folks: You can't fix S-tupid. There's not a pill you can take; there's not a class you can go to. S-tupid is forever."
."


Je pense donc je suis
The topic has been locked.

RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 19 Jun 2008 16:36 #7

Rick Burten wrote:
And, if the CJF appellation is the penultimate, then why did the AFA create the CTF category/classification? You might want to do some research before you answer that question.

I'll save you the legwork for your research. Mr. Elsbree came up with the framework for the CTF exam and introduced it to the Certification Committee. After approval by that committee and the AFA Board of Directors, it was instituted upon the publication of the 2nd edition of the Certification Study Guide.

Mr. Elsbree also came up with the framework for the American Farrier Classification (FC), which replaced the old Intern Classification (IC) this year, with the publication of the 3rd edition of the Certification Guide.

Rick Burten wrote:
As an AFA member and a CJF, I found Mr. Elsbree's statement to be condescending, disingenuous, disrespectful and unworthy of someone who leads an organization that is comprised of both certified and non-certified farriers(and others) and purports to represent the American farrier.

It is MNTBCHO that Mr. Elsbree owes everyone an apology for his statement.

Further, if this is indicative of the mind set of the leaders of the AFA, then the AFA is in perilous waters and is in danger of becoming a foot note in the dust bin of history.

Based upon his having introduced both the CTF and the FC levels for the AFA Certification program, based upon the demos he's done for Certification at AFA Conventions, and so forth... I'd say that Andrew's comment was intended to refer to slapping shoes on out of a box, but I'll leave the clarification to him.

For my part, I can say that he's never belittled me for nailing keg shoes on, and I've certainly never heard him belittle his colleagues (AFA Officers) for nailing on keggers. Rest assured that the AFA is not in jeopardy if the dust bin is associated with distinctions between keggers and handmades; I've shod with both the President-Elect and the Vice President, and both of them used keg shoes :)
~~Danvers

Danvers Child, CJF

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
http://www.foxtailforge.com


“Watch what people are cynical about, and you will often discover what they lack." General George S. Patton Jr.

"Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than...
The topic has been locked.

RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 19 Jun 2008 16:38 #8

  • Cyber Farrier
  • Cyber Farrier's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 1624
  • Thank you received: 3
  • Karma: 0
Remember... I'm watching. Even in this Political forum I expect ya'll to discuss (argue about, whatever) issues and actions, not personalities.

Got it? Get it!

Baron
“Suppose you were an ******. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
- Mark Twain

“There is no distinctly native American criminal class... save Congress.”
-Mark Twain

“No man's life, liberty, or property is safe...
The topic has been locked.

RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 19 Jun 2008 19:06 #9

  • EDeSocio
  • EDeSocio's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Very Senior Member
  • Posts: 515
  • Karma: 0
Sorry for giving wrong information Rick, but then who is to say which is right? What the tester thinks is good for the horse and the examiner thinks is good for the horse if they totally disagree... then they compromise? Then one guy has to shoe a horse with barshoes, 2 degree wedge pads and rocker toes and the other guy has to do a regular perimeter fit for a horse... what is fair between those two exams.. they get the same letters behind their names.

The AFA in my opinion isn't telling you how to shoe horses - all your horses in your books - it is giving you a standard to fit a prescription and everyone is tested along the same guidelines. So if everyone takes the same test then everyone is tested fairly. They are telling you how to shoe that particular horse, yes. But then you do shoe every horse differently to some degree don't you? We may know 43789.998% more about the hoof after 2 years of working than most vet's know by the time they retire but the horse owner believes the vet over the farrier most of the time and you are stuck with a prescription that you have to fill.


Maybe one of your associations demands you certify every year but what a hassle that is truthfully. I took my drivers license once and paid dues every few years to renew it... I haven't lost my driving ability or skills... actually AZ got smart and instituted the license that you take once and it expires when you turn 65.. then they reexamine your ability to retaining a license. Same idea goes with the AFA exams... When you attain a proficiency then you have gotten to your goal. It should be up to you to keep up your proficiency as your own personal pride dictates. For instance, I am shoeing up to 3 horses a day with hand mades. I can't find a keg shoe that has the craftsmanship I can put into a keg shoe. Therefore I forgo trying to shoe 12 horses a day and be rich for 3 horses a day doing quality work. Those three horses get done to them what I plan to do and feel is best for that particular horse. I keeps me away from shoeing with blinders on and fitting every foot the same way no matter what. Sloppy work I refuse to be a part of. It is work ethic and pride.. THAT is what has built the AFA and that is what needs to remain.

Part of what I am defending with Andrew and the AFA is that the people who are harping on him.... Such as Mr. Davis, and the second poster on Andrew's blog have never been a part of the AFA. They refuse to join a brotherhood and be part of a team for whatever reasons and justify it with such negative reasons. If you haven't voted you can't blame the election, if you haven't paid your dues and tested then you can't claim you can pass the exam blindfolded, if you haven't been part of the Association then you can't complain about one guy who is slowly trying to get it back together after it has failed so miserably in the previous years.

Jimmy, you are so quick to criticize the AFA, in this down trodden economy, the association is trying to keep membership up support functions, the team, and a magazine which they put together, print and send out to all members for no extra cost... The website has had links that were non existent, old out dated material, So Andrew sees a problem there and is working to get it fixed. Danvers who is the absolute right guy for the job has taken the publication issue and working on that. whining doesn't help get things done. Like when working on a nervous horse. Growl at it and you have a fight and if you get the foot up you are holding on to a time bomb. Give a little understanding, patience and the job goes smoother and everyone is happy.

Jaye, a farrier is a farrier no matter what the "code" people put on it.. like the "cowboy code"... there are all these romantic articles talking about the cowboy code.. a cowboy understands his horse, is respectful and polite to his women and blah blah blah.... truth be told, a 'real' cowboy is poor, often times cras, belittling to others, starts fights ignorantly, is rude to women, doesn't have the patience to work with a horse so they pull the reins, spur hard and ride the buck out of them.... Nothing like the "cowboy code" that is hoopla written by someone in a soft arm chair trying to charm an image. A farrier is a farrier. There are good farriers and there are bad farriers... That is what it boils down to. What you do to the horse and what I do to the horse may look different, might be two different things but if the horse stays sound then we both did the job.
"Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!"

Eric DeSocio CF
The topic has been locked.

RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 19 Jun 2008 19:45 #10

  • Brown Bear
  • Brown Bear's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Contributing Member
  • Posts: 96
  • Karma: 0
Well said ED.:)
The topic has been locked.

RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 19 Jun 2008 22:47 #11

  • vthorseshoe
  • vthorseshoe's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Master
  • Posts: 2841
  • Thank you received: 55
  • Karma: 11
Rick, and others.
I didn't find his blog offensive . His remark about keg shoe's was pretty clear to me.

I kinda like his blog and his bringing out some info to us. I hope he continue's with it.
I wouldn't mind seeing something similar from Mr. Fanguay and other heads of committies.

I guess this is one of those times when a difference of opinions comes to hand.

I believe any communication is good communication.

I also would like to see the website up and working, but I believe, that decisions and approvals and such need to be brought before a committee and the board before action takes place. (that means time to wait for a meeting be held and everything discussed and then aprroved or items revamped and then perhaps waiting for another meeting to approve)
Now it has been a really slow process and I know that Ron had done a lot of work, but someone else is running the show and it is being done his way now.
That most likely means starting from scratch and a different concept from what Ron had going.

The old cleshae' "hang in there" is getting very old, but what else can be done but hang in there. The wheels of business move slowly.

Before we trash this president, lets sit back and see how his policies and concepts turn out. In other words give him time to make it or break it.
He started out with a bag full of problems and no one can fix everything over night.
What the heck, what has anyone got to loose ? The disgruntled will still be disgruntilled and the hopefuls will still find a silver lining and the fence sitters will still find their butts on the top rail and critisize.

No one has called for an AFA coffin yet, and it is highly unlikely that it is on its way out like some have so aptly predicted.
There will always be mountains to climb, and not everyone will every agree.
Not even to disagree, so lets give these folks the chance to do what they were voted in to do.

Encouragement sure works better and folks are more willing to listen compared to down grading and constant bashing.
Very few folks wanted this job and not a lot stepped up to the plate.

My two cents worth ;)
"you may not like what I say" !
-but-
"you'll never have any doubts where I stand
quote Cindy Matthews 1948-2006


I thought my life had come to a close with Cindy's passing, but there is life after death Thankyou Sharon !

Bruce Matthews
Southeast...
The topic has been locked.

RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 19 Jun 2008 23:40 #12

  • Jaye Perry
  • Jaye Perry's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 5653
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
EDeSocio.......Jaye, a farrier is a farrier no matter what the "code" people put on it..

Wrong EDDEE, there are Farriers and there are horseshoers. Big difference!



like the "cowboy code"... there are all these romantic articles talking about the cowboy code.. a cowboy understands his horse, is respectful and polite to his women and blah blah blah.... truth be told, a 'real' cowboy is poor, often times cras, belittling to others, starts fights ignorantly, is rude to women, doesn't have the patience to work with a horse so they pull the reins, spur hard and ride the buck out of them.... Nothing like the "cowboy code" that is hoopla written by someone in a soft arm chair trying to charm an image

"REAL COWBOYS" take care of the horse's needs first and foremost. A farrier will take care of the needs of the the horse's leg and foot health first and foremost. Make your own analogous simluations........:rolleyes:





.
A farrier is a farrier. There are good farriers and there are bad farriers... That is what it boils down to. What you do to the horse and what I do to the horse may look different, might be two different things but if the horse stays sound then we both did the job.

As stated before here many times: "Lameness is in the eyes of the beholders".
You haven't been in the business long enough to be worrring or even working on "cripples". See above , the anaolgy of the "Cowboy":rolleyes:
The topic has been locked.

RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 00:01 #13

  • Jaye Perry
  • Jaye Perry's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 5653
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
Rick Burten.........It is MNTBCHO that Mr. Elsbree owes everyone an apology for his statement.

Further, if this is indicative of the mind set of the leaders of the AFA,.....


Somewhat in agreement with the first repose; think it could have been worded so that it didn't offend Farriers making a good living nailin' up keggars.
Second point; total agreement. the organizations have not thoroughly analized the horse owning market and horse owning public. Reliance on "so called professional equine care providers" have become more demanding because most of the horse owning public has become more reliant.
Educating the horse owning public in antiquated marketing techniques will only "founder" organizations that have no foresight. Thus, the dilemma, stick with what we know or learn something new?:confused:
The topic has been locked.

RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 00:03 #14

  • Jaye Perry
  • Jaye Perry's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 5653
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
Brown Bear wrote:
Well said ED.:)


Where's the real name Pard? That is a rule here!:cool:
The topic has been locked.

RE:AFA President Elsbree Blogging 20 Jun 2008 00:25 #15

  • Jaye Perry
  • Jaye Perry's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Guru
  • Posts: 5653
  • Thank you received: 1
  • Karma: 0
danverschild;-I'll save you the legwork for your research. Mr. Elsbree came up with the framework for the CTF exam and introduced it to the Certification Committee. After approval by that committee and the AFA Board of Directors, it was instituted upon the publication of the 2nd edition of the Certification Study Guide.

Mr. Elsbree also came up with the framework for the American Farrier Classification (FC), which replaced the old Intern Classification (IC) this year, with the publication of the 3rd edition of the Certification Guide.



Based upon his having introduced both the CTF and the FC levels for the AFA Certification program, based upon the demos he's done for Certification at AFA Conventions, and so forth... I'd say that Andrew's comment was intended to refer to slapping shoes on out of a box, but I'll leave the clarification to him.


That's a wonderful accomplishment Danvers. How about Mr. Elsbree create a liaison between the AVMA Research officials , AAEP and other identities that would further the learning dimensions for us NON-"Real Farriers" for the horse's foot and leg health? One dimension of farriery that would really educate people who want to know the details or "secrets" to keeping horses sound as they can be.

I sat in a group today that was discussin' the AFA. 3/4 will not be renewing their memberships. Reason~~~ lack of learning opportunities other than making a horseshoe. I was the fourth, I haven't and will not be a member until some "REAL" foresight is seen to help farriers overcome everyday problems; besides some useless acronym(s).:D
The topic has been locked.

Kunena Birthday Module

  • Mike Chaffin birthday is today
  • shelby820 birthday is today
  • hatcher barry birthday is in 1 day
  • cowgirlup birthday is in 363 days
  • gabear67E2 birthday is in 363 days
  • AClement birthday is in 364 days
  • andreanelson birthday is in 364 days
  • dani_shoes78 birthday is in 364 days
  • Docbarhorse birthday is in 364 days
  • SherryinPA birthday is in 364 days
  • WeercerigD10C birthday is in 364 days
Time to create page: 0.235 seconds

S5 Box

Register

*
*
*
*
*
*

Fields marked with an asterisk (*) are required.